Neighbour protocol/ tree problem.

[zoothorn]

Hi- I bought a cottage in rural wales 2 yrs ago, & now trouble with my neighbours. I'm on my own, with couples around me been here for decades.  It hasn't been easy- a fair bit of bullying to me. I share a stream boundary with 1 neighbour, along the long side. We're pretty close by.

 

The issue: I have a few of their trees overhanging, 2 nice hawthorns ok for now, 1 huge Sycamore lower end.. 6m over. Also an ash (at a point 6ft up so say 3/4 of it) which tree surgeons, doing work on a tree of mine c/o PowerCo, said they could cut down FOC. Yes pls! a pain/ big foliage barrier to house view/ light. But 1st permission needed by them > got asap by a signature of MrX in his shop > came back. Job done. When MrsX came back 6pm > stormed round > rude / angry (didnt know- MrX tried to call but mob didnt work he said). I apologised sincerely twice. He was fine about job, rolled his eyes "give her time.. I thought she wanted it down".. "I know, you both told me so before!". They did.

 

A year on & I ask to trim 2m off side of the huge Syc, all I can reach/ not much. Last year MrX advised I did this, an expert's advice to a novice gardener as I am. So MrX says 'yeah no prob' this time as expected. I ask further any idea how I'd get up high to continue 2m line.. 'mm I'll have a word'/ stalling. So I gently said "well I can in theory cut to boundary by law, but won't MrX out of respect, of course I wouldn't". Not threateningly, just a point made.

 

Prior to this he said its NOT his tree 'Water Authority's that.. but we claim it' as its on edge of his & unregistered land: a grey area Ive been unable to clarify as plans are so small/ vague/ hopeless- BUT- woman at LandReg said there's an unregistered thin area, on their side, along whole stream bank dividing us (in which case theyve claimed this too but no issue with lovely plants on it). So this damn thing is most likely on unregistered land, but not established as such.

 

A gentle friendly invite to MrsX last week/ a few basic gardening Q's ok I asked? she came round & blew her top, abuse/ threatening if I should 'dare touch that tree!!' nasty claptrap inc comments re. my parents. Awful behaviour making it out I was to blame. I told her to leave, calmly, but I am furious with her.

 

So, this gives me the opportunity to trim a proper 3.5m off. Not out of spite -no- but bc I need to put a log cabin in my lower garden, 3+m of Syc at the moment is over the top of it, & creating a dark lower area. Tree surgeon came round, MrX glaring at him a few metres away & he was a bit intimidated. Toxic atmosphere. MrX had an episode vs opposite side landowners many yrs ago.. police invloved. So not an easy situation to progress. My builder, no1 in area, a local whose family goes back 10 generations, said 'I can do it.. won't have hassle to me'. Ok the right man for the job. But what about fireworks afterwards? retribution to my trees? what about protocol: do they deserve a warning that I'll be carrying out some tree work?

 

thanks zootH

 

 

Edited June 14, 2018 by zoothorn

[epsilonGreedy]

How old is Mrs X?

 

I sense some mental decline if she can flip from convivial conversation about gardening to vile accusations about your parents within minutes.

[PeterW]

As long as you return the cuttings to the land then it’s not an issue. 

 

Work should be done to best practices and no damage caused that will incur further injury to the tree but I would just crack on ...

 

And she can’t complain as the tree isn’t on her land, she told you that herself .... 

[Jeremy Harris]

I can give some advice from our experience that may or may not help (my experience is that neighbour disputes are rarely rational...).  

 

First, the unregistered land may well now effectively belong to your neighbour, under the law of adverse possession, if they had been using it for 12 years before 2002.  In essence, if someone has had beneficial use of a bit of unregistered land, without owning or renting it, and without having been notified by the landowner that they should not use the land, then after a period of 12 years they could claim the land as their own.  It's a bit messy (we encountered exactly this when trying to buy a plot in the Wye valley and finding that around 1/3rd of the buildable area was part of the garden being used by the neighbour). but the details are here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/adverse-possession-of-registered-land/practice-guide-4-adverse-possession-of-registered-land.  Worth a read, as the law around adverse possession isn't as clear cut as it used to be prior to 2002, and a lot hinges on both the date and the length of time that the claimant has had beneficial use of the land without challenge.

 

Secondly, anything overhanging your land is encroaching on your freehold, and you have the right (with some exceptions) to remove it, as long as (as @PeterW  says) you offer to hand anything you cut or take down back.  There are issues regarding liability if by cutting back something like a tree you cause it to be unstable, so it's always best to make sure work is done by someone who can make that judgement and make sure the neighbour is informed and given the opportunity to agree to the work.  You can push the point legally and insist that anything overhanging on your side is removed, though, even if that does mean that the neighbour has to accept some trimming on their side as well to maintain the shape and stability of the tree.

 

Finally, tall hedges etc on boundaries are notorious for causing disputes, and if at all possible it's far better to do all you can to avoid any dispute with a neighbour.  The reason for this is that when you come to sell, you are required to disclose any past disputes to a potential buyer, and some may well be put off a purchase if it looks as if there may be an outstanding neighbour problem.  This happened to us once, with the first house we bought in Scotland, which was a new house, with an empty new house alongside, that was purchased a few months after we moved in.  The woman that bought the house next door turned out to be a "lady of the night", who "entertained" a stream of men into the early hours, making a great deal of noise in the process.  We tried talking to her a couple of times, but she was usually the worse for drink, and we quickly realised it was going to be pointless making any sort of complaint.  The advantage was that she slept most of the day, so when we decided that the best course of action was to sell up and move, everything seemed quiet when people came to view.  We felt a bit guilty about leaving the new owner with the problem, but because we hadn't actually had a dispute with the neighbour we didn't need to declare the problem, so legally we were in the clear.

 

 

 

[zoothorn]

I know I'm in my right to cut & give back the cuttings. But its the protocol, in this particular situation, that needs care. Even if we call this tree theirs I can still cut- you can see how big its become/ the stream boundary in only 1m LHS of the bow of the tree you can make out. Its what he might do, what 'protection' I should consider.. cameras in case of retribution (I'm adamant they will do so- but if not caught in act how can I proove? esp if n'bors on other side of me, their friends, have been bullies to me too. Now you see the point of my thread?

 

One odd thing to add to the mix chaps, sorry I forgot to add, is that they're selling up! I know, daft as it sounds/ I mean why would they care so much? well.. 1) they're basically garden snobs snooting over my 1st efforts whio worry excessivley I'll ruin the tree 2) they won't be able to sell it- have tried twice before, old cold stone cttg, garden needs an expert, cramped, no Cheating, corrugated iron roof to one section/ diy built some of it, tiny bunkbed steps to 2 small rooms you can only stand in middle of/ kitchen needs 5k spent, huge beech tree looms over it 5k to chop, gdn OTT now.. a tiny niche market. THIS is why she's angry & stressed/, & taken it out on me.

 

No TPO on the tree btw.

[jack]

Keep a dated diary in a properly bound notepad, summarising any interactions you have with her/them. Ideally you'd get someone unconnected with you to date and sign each entry on the date you make it. That way, if threats were to become serious, you have a contemporaneous record written so it'll be more than just your word against theirs.

 

Other than that, I don't have any real advice. Since trying to talk to them clearly isn't getting you anywhere, perhaps it's better to just crack on, do what you need to do and accept that there may be consequences. The alternative is to wait until they sell and hope the new neighbour is more rational, but as you say, there's no guarantee they'll manage to get shot of it.

 

BTW, are you English (or more importantly, not Welsh?) Friends of ours have had a family holiday home in north Wales for decades and they're still only barely tolerated by many of the locals. Crazy attitude given that tourism is all the area has left. If you aren't Welsh, you may be getting some of that vibe.

[joe90]

Well if their going don’t worry about it, when we were applying for planning for our site we had a god awful neighbour, luckily he has gone. Perhaps you could drop a note through their door to say you have sought professional advice on this matter and this is notice that you are going to get the overhanging branches trimmed. Perhaps get friend/s on site when it’s done so you have witnesses if they kick off ( big friends are even better?). Jeremy tried to be very nice with a new neighbour and he just took the pi**.

[Jeremy Harris]

If they are selling the house, then there are a some things you might want to consider.  Their sale will, to some extent, depend on your goodwill over the tree dispute, as you could choose to tell their estate agent that you're in dispute with them.  The agent would be obliged to pass this on to any potential purchaser, I believe.  Using this as a bargaining chip when trying to negotiate with the neighbour might be an option, especially if they really do wish to sell.

 

Another point is their apparent adverse possession of the unregistered strip of land.  Your land and that unregistered strip will almost certainly have riparian ownership rights and responsibilities for the watercourse, usually each side has responsibility to the centre, even for very small streams.  How are they planning to represent the ownership of that strip of land in their sale particulars, I wonder?  It's another point that might give you some negotiating ammunition.

 

Riparian ownership does give landowners some significant responsibilities, so there may be a way to use those as another lever.  You have a responsibility as your land has a boundary with the stream, and you may be able to use the legal obligations that riparian ownership places on you as leverage.  There's some information on riparian rights and obligations here: https://www.walkermorris.co.uk/publications/in-brief-march-2015/and-on-the-river-flows-riparian-rights-and-responsibilities/

 

Waiting until the neighbours have sold and moved is another option, but there's no way of knowing whether the new owners will be any more accommodating.  The comment that @jack made in his last paragraph above does, sadly, reflect the situation is some areas.  A former colleague of mine was posted to Aberporth from Farnborough, and bought a house nearby.  His children were bullied at school, their neighbours were rude and offensive and both their house and cars were vandalised with anti-English slogans.  He ended up requesting a new posting on compassionate grounds, as his wife and family just couldn't take it any more, and he ended up working with me in Scotland.

[jack]

1 minute ago, JSHarris said:

The comment that @jack made in his last paragraph above does, sadly, reflect the situation is some areas.  A former colleague of mine was posted to Aberporth from Farnborough, and bought a house nearby.  His children were bullied at school, their neighbours were rude and offensive and both their house and cars were vandalised with anti-English slogans.  He ended up requesting a new posting on compassionate grounds, as his wife and family just couldn't take it any more, and he ended up working with me in Scotland.

 

My mate knows people who were affected by their holiday homes being vandalised and even set on fire by Welsh nationalists. It was a big thing in the 80s and mid 90s apparently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meibion_Glyndŵr

[Moira Niedzwiecka]

We had the same thing.

Our neighbours, who we had been close friends of for about 14 years, turned on us when we applied for PP.

This was in spite of the fact they had extended against a covenant we have over the property & partially across our right of way.

At the time we thought what the hell, they're friends & although it cut off a view from the rear of our house it didn't impact to much.

We are kind of live & let live people.

They have now sold & moved on but not before making our lives hell for a while.

[zoothorn]

36 minutes ago, jack said:

Keep a dated diary in a properly bound notepad, summarising any interactions you have with her/them. Ideally you'd get someone unconnected with you to date and sign each entry on the date you make it. That way, if threats were to become serious, you have a contemporaneous record written so it'll be more than just your word against theirs.

 

Other than that, I don't have any real advice. Since trying to talk to them clearly isn't getting you anywhere, perhaps it's better to just crack on, do what you need to do and accept that there may be consequences. The alternative is to wait until they sell and hope the new neighbour is more rational, but as you say, there's no guarantee they'll manage to get shot of it.

 

BTW, are you English (or more importantly, not Welsh?) Friends of ours have had a family holiday home in north Wales for decades and they're still only barely tolerated by many of the locals. Crazy attitude given that tourism is all the area has left. If you aren't Welsh, you may be getting some of that vibe.

 

I'm an english pig I'm afraid. Ive had a fair bit of anti-english here, from one rudely shoving themselves in midst of a chat, back of head at me 'murmur glad all that was in welsh not english' to make me feel welcome in vllg. But sarcasm, a campaign of nasty evil staring from another n'bor, BUT the main one is one welsh woman another n'bor who didnt like me/ anti-english from 1st moment I met her I sensed.. whose so manipulative & jealous she's getting anyone 'making friends' with me to become enemies. Ive even had a previously lovely student turn nasty & then steal small items from my house (she's the one whose encouraged this previously shy next door woman to become enflamed enough to have had this diatribe at me). PLUS her husband: tries to get his out of control dog onto my property: & dog mess- & a huge dog totally crazy he childishly throws its ball yds from my front drive, thinking Ive no ideas what he's doing, in order to get it to runaround my garden/ at me which it did once & scared me. Just this morning watched him him- throw/ try/ try.. gets bored/ goes inside. pathetic. But he's not welsh, from yorkshire.. thats just his nth/sth thing anti-me. Ive had all sorts of cr*p to tolerate. My 1st house Ive waited 20 yrs  to be able to buy. I'l,l tell you what I've got more a thicker skin moreso than the feeling cr*p they used to successfully get me to be. They both always sarcastic waving/ smiling at me to rub it in too, thinking I don;'t know what they're up to/ they're too smart. So juvenile & sad.

Edited June 14, 2018 by zoothorn

[Jeremy Harris]

8 minutes ago, jack said:

 

My mate knows people who were affected by their holiday homes being vandalised and even set on fire by Welsh nationalists. It was a big thing in the 80s and mid 90s apparently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meibion_Glyndŵr

 

My former colleague moved to Aberporth in the middle of that, about 1988/89 IIRC. 

 

As a bit of pointless information, my wife's related to Owain Glyndŵr, as a consequence of a strategic marriage between her family (who still live in the same castle on the border) and the family of Glyndŵr, which was almost certainly aimed at maintaining the peace along that stretch of the Welsh Marches.

[zoothorn]

7 minutes ago, Moira Niedzwiecka said:

We had the same thing.

Our neighbours, who we had been close friends of for about 14 years, turned on us when we applied for PP.

This was in spite of the fact they had extended against a covenant we have over the property & partially across our right of way.

At the time we thought what the hell, they're friends & although it cut off a view from the rear of our house it didn't impact to much.

We are kind of live & let live people.

They have now sold & moved on but not before making our lives hell for a while.

 

That sounds awful- my sympathies. These tree n'bors.. we had to get on as these 2 properties are 'joined at the hip', one garden overlooking another/ all sounds heard (theyve got so many plants they can have alot more privacy & able to not be seen.. unlike my just-cleared area I had to do after 20yrs neglected mess).. And we did get on well (actaully I have not fallen out with MrX per se) beery evenings, handmade chocs at xmas, jokes about the 'other couple' I mentioned so we 'bonded' to an extent no Q about it, all proper good n'bor stuff. During cold snap I dropped off 2 bags of logs I cut for them. Next time I see her/ I invite her round for a cheery cuppa- & a vitriolic diatribe Im still picking my jaw off the floor from. Everything changed in 3 mins flat. All atmos totally toxic, & I'm furious about it/ cannot stand the sight of her/ totally unforgiveable.

 

And this woman over the way gleefully rubbing her hands of her handiwork. Jeepers Ive had to keep a lid on.. & that's my weak point too.

[lizzie]

@zoothorn make sure you have legal expenses on your household policy. It covers neighbours disputes if they get to lawyers stage.

 

I am Welsh but live in England.  I was ashamed by the way some very close friends were treated when they retired to West Wales.  I won't go into the detail but it ruined their retirement, made them both ill, they had 3 years of hell and ended up selling and moving back to the Midlands. 5 years on they are still bruised by it.

 

We (Welsh) are not all the same and I am sad that you have had the misfortune to end up with neighbours like this, I know neighbours can be good or bad wherever they are but it is awful the way some of my countrymen treat English people.  Its one thing to shout it out at the rugby but to carry it through to life is very wrong. People are people and should be treated with respect unless they have done something to deserve contempt.

[joe90]

Well Zoo, try not to let it wind you up, it’s you that will have a heart attack, not them. You are the better person for trying to be nice and doing things by the book. I have suffered I’ll health because of stress and now refuse to get wound up as I know I am the only one that will suffer. Smile sweetly at them ( it will wind them up even more) and show them you are not bothered ( even if you are inside ?).

 

I too have suffered from anti English attitudes from some people in North Wales.

 

p.s. You are welcome to borrow my chainsaw anytime .

Edited June 14, 2018 by joe90

[zoothorn]

2 hours ago, epsilonGreedy said:

How old is Mrs X?

 

I sense some mental decline if she can flip from convivial conversation about gardening to vile accusations about your parents within minutes.

 

Very astute. 64 I think, had to take a few days off bc the rabbit died, terribly upset when her m-in-law went intio a home/ huge stress. weird. then when she died & I gave my sympathies.. 'oh thats ok -didnt like her anyway' in a blunt blackburn way. Eh? those don't tally. His reaction.. 'thx, well she was 85- & we got 50k we didnt know she had so not all bad'.

 

Then during diatribe she uses died m-in-law as emeotional ammunition: 'you dont know what its like to lose a parent do you like MrX?!? just leave him alone! dont you dare touch that tree!!' through clenched teeth & evil stares like Ive never encountred in my life. Still sore over the ash she didn't get told about coming down last year: a scrawny thing with its bits overhanging (the ash tree's not pretty either).. so yes I think indeed she has 'mental fragility' issues.

 

She also actually talks to the cats, I mean like she's talking to a person.. that's not entirely 'right' in my book too

[Moira Niedzwiecka]

@zoothorn

I am so sorry to hear of your problems.

I have found that if you go out of your way to try & explain & be reasonable it is just regarded as weakness.

My advice is be polite but firm & take comfort in the knowledge that you will always behave better than them.

[epsilonGreedy]

15 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Very astute. 64 I think, had to take a few days off bc the rabbit died, terribly upset when her m-in-law went intio a home/ huge stress. weird. then when she died & I gave my sympathies.. 'oh thats ok -didnt like her anyway' in a blunt blackburn way. Eh? those don't tally. His reaction.. 'thx, well she was 85- & we got 50k we didnt know she had so not all bad'.

 

 

The Human Race produces an inexhaustible supply of mentally defective people, it is not your job to fix them all or even those examples within 500m meters. There is no need to question your actions, just view these people as would a nurse doing a shift in an asylum so look down on them and their mental disease with empathy but maintain a professional detachment. Your game plan is to help them move on and spend their £50k on a new property, this means you do not want any local anti-social crime reports logged on a police web site that might deter potential buyers.

Edited June 14, 2018 by epsilonGreedy

[zoothorn]

5 minutes ago, lizzie said:

@zoothorn make sure you have legal expenses on your household policy. It covers neighbours disputes if they get to lawyers stage.

 

I am Welsh but live in England.  I was ashamed by the way some very close friends were treated when they retired to West Wales.  I won't go into the detail but it ruined their retirement, made them both ill, they had 3 years of hell and ended up selling and moving back to the Midlands. 5 years on they are still bruised by it.

 

We (Welsh) are not all the same and I am sad that you have had the misfortune to end up with neighbours like this, I know neighbours can be good or bad wherever they are but it is awful the way some of my countrymen treat English people.  Its one thing to shout it out at the rugby but to carry it through to life is very wrong. People are people and should be treated with respect unless they have done something to deserve contempt.

 

How sweet of you to say. My tree (prob for the thread) & the nasty dog-owner are english (so I feel I can throw it back at them in an odd way).

 

The main protagonist tho, & 1 other similarly-aged (just retired > bored- much of the core reason) nasty man only ~really Ive experienced anti-englishness from. But that means 95% have been nice so don't feel ashamed at all/ you are still WAAAY more tolerant as a whole than us english pigs! Its that generation, not the young thankfully. They're of a generation whose heyday was the 80's.. all competition & bettering the jones's.. tory policy seeped into the influenced. That's my opinion. Seriously, even those TV ads were all do this to get one over your n'bor.. flymo/vs this. ford vs that. Turgid, soul-destroying filth. You see I have some anger in me..

 

Ive counted 14 folks who've been rude, nasty, or mean to me since I moved here (9 english, 5 welsh. So there you are!).. I still love the place hugely despite all this: THAT'S how beautiful wales is, & the lovely welsh people who have been nice to me.

[zoothorn]

10 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

The Human Race produces an inexhaustible supply of mentally defective people, it is not your job to fix them all or even those examples within 500m meters. There is no need to question your actions, just view these people as would a nurse doing a shift in an asylum. Your game plan is to help them move on and spend their £50k on a new property, this means you do not want any local anti-social crime reports logged on a police web site that might deter potential buyers.

 

This amused me, thanks eG.. I know that's the correct approach: when you hear her call her damn cat across my gdn deliberately, knowing Im mad about them using it as a WC, I fly out the door tho stones flying/ sorry I can't adhere to what i should do at times. I hate these cats now.

 

The game plan is ideal & points noted; but its in their interest mostly to not have anymore episodes like the nasty one again.. so they can't really kick off can they? in theory that is. BUT they can get the 'other couple I mention' to cut my hedge down 'for them', as they want to do anyway.. then I have no prrof of xyz & they're all laughing at me. Ive had these other n'bors complain > council comes out > I get stressed, but thankfully they say my hed=ge ok where it is "just dont let it grow more" (its on a corner/ these sods just getting at me/ control thing).

[newhome]

I don’t have any amazing advice I’m afraid but I do send my sympathies. I am English living in Scotland and mostly people are fine, and my neighbours in particular are great, but I did experience quite a lot of anti English sentiment around the 2014 independence vote. It was an uncomfortable place to be at times with words and actions that anywhere else would be considered to be racism. Thankfully things have calmed down now but I dread another vote as it will just fan the flames again. 

[Guest Alphonsox]

2 hours ago, JSHarris said:

As a bit of pointless information, my wife's related to Owain Glyndŵr, as a consequence of a strategic marriage between her family (who still live in the same castle on the border) and the family of Glyndŵr, which was almost certainly aimed at maintaining the peace along that stretch of the Welsh Marches.

 

Ah yes Glyndŵr - the London lawyer who fought for the English Crown against the Scots.

(A usefully iconoclastic bit of information to have when dealing with the excessively Welsh ?)

[Jeremy Harris]

4 minutes ago, Alphonsox said:

 

Ah yes Glyndŵr - the London lawyer who fought for the English Crown against the Scots.

(A usefully iconoclastic bit of information to have when dealing with the excessively Welsh ?)

 

I find it interesting is that my wife's family still have the anglicised version of his name, Glendower, as a family name.  Her great aunt still lives in the family castle.  Although it's now owned by the National Trust, the family still have an apartment there, and they are all buried in the crypt in the attached chapel, going back to around 1080 something, IIRC.

[AliG]

I would just have the trees trimmed and offer them the branches. You don't need their permission and asking them only creates the chance that they say no and you have to try and work around their unreasonableness.

 

I had to trim tress along the boundary that my neighbours used to try and object to my planning permission. They never said a word and I didn't bother asking them, I just put in a planning application then did it.

 

If they hassle you call the police and if you think their is an element that you are English, say that you are worried it is racially motivated.

 

A good thing to do in situations like this is keep a diary of anything that happens noting time and date. This goes down extremely well with the police/courts. We have had to do this is a situation where we were harassed by a crazy ex neighbour/friend. The police sorted it right out.

 

Is it a conservation area? If so you will need permission to trim the trees, at least you would in Scotland.

 

Frankly it is a real pain that people can plant trees along boundaries and interfere with your enjoyment of your property. Because of my neighbours complaining, I have a 4m waste of space strip between my house and the boundary to protect the roots of their tress and a smaller garden than ideal at the other side. Effectively they have hijacked part of my garden by having trees on the boundary.

Edited June 14, 2018 by AliG

[ProDave]

1 hour ago, newhome said:

I don’t have any amazing advice I’m afraid but I do send my sympathies. I am English living in Scotland and mostly people are fine, and my neighbours in particular are great, but I did experience quite a lot of anti English sentiment around the 2014 independence vote. It was an uncomfortable place to be at times with words and actions that anywhere else would be considered to be racism. Thankfully things have calmed down now but I dread another vote as it will just fan the flames again. 

I too have not had any experience of anti English issues up here. I did however meet a (English) family who had moved here from the Borders where they said they were hounded out by the Anti English sentiment.  I guess the Borders covers a large area.