Posi joist - This install feels rubbish, thoughts?

[boxrick]

So... after much pain and agony my posi joists have arrived.

 

I paid a lot of money for all my hangers and correct fittings, yet they seem to have been drilled into oblivion and the ends cut up.

This document states that they shouldn't be drilled, notched etc.

https://www.mitek.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2018/10/WoPT-Issue-7-2.pdf
 

I'll get more pictures tomorrow, but I would like some immediate thoughts. I am a little bit upset with this right now... 

From the POV of a layman:
 

1. You can see where they drilled them in just to get the positioning and they have drilled them in so hard the wood has split a chunk off the middle
2. On this same positioning drilling the end piece has actually gone at an angle as its pulled each part away
3. They have drilled so much on some pieces it looks like it has been mangled with a hacksaw
4. Angles and big notches have been taken out, chunks out the top and bottom
5. Random drilling constantly all over

I'll contact the manufacturer on Monday, but from my POV this looks like absolute shit.

 

 

Edited July 26 by Nickfromwales
Duff pics deleted.

[boxrick]

Honestly don't know whats going on with the brightness of these.

Lets try again:

 

[MikeSharp01]

That does not look good - relying on a couple of screws and not the top string  and / or a hanger feels very wrong, send these images to the joist manufacturers and see if they are cool with it - I doubt they will be although the runs are relatively short and the steel frame is doing the vast majority of the work assuming the roof load is appropriately transferred to it and I am not sure it is here. If things are as wrong as I suspect you will need to work up a strategy to tackle your contractors on Monday. Others with much more experience will be along to help with that I suspect.

[ProDave]

Post whatever drawings of the roof that you have, that they should be working from.

[Redbeard]

Last and last-but-one pics - what will happen next?! The phrase 'hanging in the air like bricks don't' - with  a little modification - comes to mind.

[torre]

Sorry but this looks very poor. You'll have been supplied with plans identifying each joist and which of the hangers you've paid for should be used at each connection. The design will rely on those hangers being used correctly. 

 

I guess the last pics may be just to place in rough positions prior to hanging as they're hopeless, but even with that benefit of the doubt some of the others where they've cut the ends and have minimal bearing are surely wrong. 

 

If your joist supplier is local maybe they'll visit the site to take a look, I think it's very likely some of this will need to be re-done and some joists may need replacing. 

 

Your building inspector will want to see these have been installed according to the design, it's hard to see this would pass. 

 

Are you staging payments? I'd want to keep something back if this is typical - I just looked at your profile, this is the same builder that installed the wrong insulation below damp?

[boxrick]

15 minutes ago, torre said:

Sorry but this looks very poor. You'll have been supplied with plans identifying each joist and which of the hangers you've paid for should be used at each connection. The design will rely on those hangers being used correctly. 

 

I guess the last pics may be just to place in rough positions prior to hanging as they're hopeless, but even with that benefit of the doubt some of the others where they've cut the ends and have minimal bearing are surely wrong. 

 

If your joist supplier is local maybe they'll visit the site to take a look, I think it's very likely some of this will need to be re-done and some joists may need replacing. 

 

Your building inspector will want to see these have been installed according to the design, it's hard to see this would pass. 

 

Are you staging payments? I'd want to keep something back if this is typical - I just looked at your profile, this is the same builder that installed the wrong insulation below damp?

Yea this is the same guy

 

One picture I didn't share is they have also just cut this steel. It's one of the valley beams. 
 

It's not in any SE plans or similar.

 

Edited July 26 by boxrick

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, boxrick said:

Yea this is the same guy

 

One picture I didn't share is they have also just cut this steel. It's one of the valley beams. 
 

It's not in any SE plans or similar.

 

@Gus Potter, has this steel just been destroyed by the undercut and diminished web? 

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

steel just been destroyed

Its not completely clear on the photos. It looks as if the beam isn't a beam any more, reduced to a T, almost to a plate and all the load is sitting on the web.

But perhaps back where the beam remains complete, that part is sitting on a wall or plate?  In which case the remaining part has become an oversail and not structural.

Even then, it should probably be on a pad  or plate.

Is there a side picture of that?

 

[Nickfromwales]

7 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Its not completely clear on the photos. It looks as if the beam isn't a beam any more, reduced to a T, almost to a plate and all the load is sitting on the web.

But perhaps back where the beam remains complete, that part is sitting on a wall or plate?  In which case the remaining part has become an oversail and not structural.

Even then, it should probably be on a pad  or plate.

Is there a side picture of that?

 

The part where it’s complete is not sat on the padstone. The T that’s been left is the end load bearing bit.

 

Quite hard to comprehend that someone would do this to a steel specified by an SE!

[saveasteading]

19 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

The T that’s been left is the end load bearing bit.

In which case it is totally unacceptable. 

1. The beam's web should not be load-bearing onto the support.

2..The beam is completely compromised and is now understrength.

3. It needs a padstone.

 

@boxrick the works must stop immediately. 

Remedying this is likely to be complex and costly.

Who is involved professionally other than the builder? do you have a contractual position with any of them?

A formal complaint must be registered with your builder, in plain English with pictures attached, or with technicalities if you have an advisor.

remember that the BCO is not a quality control manager, and will have constraints on what he can say. Who engaged the BCO anyway, You or the builder? If you, then I would still have a word with them.

 

 

BTW That knot is massive and compromises this timber... I'm surprised this got sold.

 

Web on block. 

[Mike]

14 hours ago, boxrick said:

I'll contact the manufacturer on Monday, but from my POV this looks like absolute shit.

+1. Most of those pictures are seriously alarming.

 

6 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

the works must stop immediately...

...A formal complaint must be registered with your builder, in plain English with pictures attached, or with technicalities if you have an advisor.

+1

[boxrick]

Thanks for the reply folks. Not much I can do due to it being weekend, but I'll prepare my pictures and written stuff and contact SE, roof designer and maybe BC on Monday.

 

I'll have to tell him at some point before that work needs to stop. The unfortunate thing is I've been waiting 3 months for electricity north west to come. They are due on site Monday to start digging and I've got scaffolding in the way the builder was going to move. So I'm going to have a fun week..

 

 

[MikeSharp01]

1 hour ago, boxrick said:

They are due on site Monday to start digging and I've got scaffolding in the way the builder was going to move. So I'm going to have a fun week..

Tell him after the scaffold is moved?

 

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, boxrick said:

I'll have to tell him at some point before that work needs to stop.

You must not delay this. What if he starts to cover that work up? Or the worst scenario is he does a runner.

It is probably all sortable but for a few£k. Removing and replacing much more than that.

Ask him politely how he is going to sort it. And instruct him to adapt the scaffolding.

[boxrick]

To add to this, the valley beam which has the posis rested on it, it's been welded at the bottom with this thing.

 

So perhaps not as bad as it initially looked, but still far from ideal. 

[Kelvin]

That’s awful welding. 
 

You need to get an independent assessment of the whole build to this point while it’s still fixable. And I really doubt your builder is actually capable of fixing this without someone standing over him checking everything he does. 

[JohnMo]

7 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

awful welding

Yep. A hammer would knock that apart, technical term is pigeon sh!t.  Deffo need your structural engineer to visit - be prepared to sack your current builder, I doubt they have the skills to put things right, even when pointed in the correct direction.

[Conor]

Is that pic of the scaffold /mess on a public footpath road?! Unacceptable.

 

When you say the steel valley was "not in any SE plans or similar", do you mean the beam or the modification?

 

It does look like everything has been cobbled together with very little planning, care, skill or thought.

[Iceverge]

The scaffold appears to have no cross bracing and the nearest leg is a stiff breeze from slipping off the footpath and see-sawing on 3 legs or falling over. It's a serious hazard to the public. I wouldn't them play with my Lego.  There's a worrying lack of the fundamentals. 

 

It's really disappointing and I'm sorry it's happened. Can you tell us more about the contractor? Do any of the following apply?

 

1. Avail at quite short notice. 

2. Cheaper than any other quotes.

3. References were in writing or over the phone, not in person on site of an existing project. 

4. They dismissed the need for independence oversight from your Architect or Engineer as unnecessary.

 

I fear they'll disappear into the ether when challenged.

 

For now the utility connection is a very small priority and I would prepare mentally that this debacle may set you back the full cost of the roof and months of delay. 

 

Again, it's unfortunate to see such unscrupulous operators out there chancing this. 

 

[Annker]

Shocking work.

I'd say if there are payments pending or about to be made to the builder halt them immediately.

Unfortunately I imagine you are going to have some frustrating weeks ahead.  

[Kelvin]

I’ve been where you are. Completely lost faith in the builder and faced with this decision. Stop the build. Cancel all follow on trades which will cause delays and likely money. However it’s the right decision to make. It certainly was in my case. 
 

Get someone (your SE) in to review and report on the build against the structural engineering drawings (I got Gus from here in my case) Even if you don’t get anywhere with your current builder it all still needs fixed and you need the detail on how it ought to be fixed so that whoever you get to fix it knows what they need to do. Builders aren’t engineers it’s just that a lot of them think they are. 

[saveasteading]

43 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

Builders aren’t engineers it’s just that a lot of them think they are. 

I'm pretty sure it is worse than that. It's knowing and understanding so little that they are unaware of their own ignorance or other people's skills.

What other horrors lie in their previous jobs?

 

[bmj1]

Firstly, I feel for you, I've been there. These were some very stressful times in my life. I've seen my horror show of contractor shortcuts, but nobody was daft enough to cut corners on the structure. Most thieves aren't comfortable killing people...

 

Ultimately, there are lives at stake. If a roof or structure collapses you're potentially looking at fatalities.

 

1) You need to get your SE on site and show him all the areas of concern. And get him to do a full inspection.

 

2) You need to ensure the posi joists are sounds structurally also. Maybe your SE will be comfortable to advise on this.

 

3) You need to pause all works. This contractor isn't going to get you the quality of finish that you want. Now is the time to cut them loose, and you have good cause to do so. Do not pay them a penny more.

 

Again, I've been there. I had to rebuild an entire flat roof at my cost because it wasn't watertight. Don't despair. You'll get there.

[Mike]

20 hours ago, boxrick said:

the valley beam which has the posis rested on it, it's been welded at the bottom with this thing.

 

So perhaps not as bad as it initially looked, but still far from ideal.

I wouldn't describe that as welding. It's also unacceptable.