Costings Damage Control

[dogman]

Time has been our biggest cost over run. The delay in the windows cost me over £5 k and a lesson learnt. 

[nod]

9 hours ago, nod said:

It’s very easy to overrun on costs 

weather you are running the project yourself or employing a Architect or project manager

They certainly won’t be poring through spread sheets at after midnight like we all have done or are likely to be doing in the coming months

 

i had a good chat with Ian regarding unscrupulous builders and trades people

im 56 now and been in the building trade all my adult life I’ve run my own business since I was twenty

Im still hearing the lame excuses for not turning up or trying to cut corners as you all are 

I’m only onsite Friday to Sunday

and each evening So have ended up doing a lot of the work myself

as you can’t be there all the time

I would say if your not happy with something Insist that it has to be re done Even if it means things fall behind a little

At the end of the day You are the client 

Also a factor that most can’t have factored in Is a rise in labour costs

Round were I live the day rate is about £170 on the main stream sites With most of the manestream builders paying time and a half Saturday morning double in the afternoon and much higher earnings for price work

probably higher further south

Nearly all the major building sites around here and there a lot of them Have sales signs outside accompanied by sign offering immediate starts to Bricklayers

 

i don’t think there is a massive skill shortage in the building trade

I just think the pool of labour that we have to choose from is very small

The smaller builders that will take on one off jobs Tend to have a crack team of people who either struggle to read drawings or have issues with time keeping 

 

I asked what was up with one of our brickies His mate replied he’s still a bit high He will be fine when he’s had something to eat 

My mate who employs him

said he’s the last one here every day But does twice as much as everyone else What Can I do He’s a good Brickie 

 

I always laugh at these show where she taps a wall and says knock the wall out put a stud up stick a new bath in

plumber plaster joiner 

£300

quik lick of paint Kob done

No slip no floor coverings

It gives a faise impression of how things really are

 

 

 

[Visti]

I've been continually astounded by the fantastic level of input from the community on here; creating an account here is the best decision I've made in this self-build process to date! I'll defiantly be taking up offers of visiting your builds/completed homes and to take on any advice you'd be willing to impart. 

I'll PM those of you who've already offered shortly. Same offer goes for me: anyone who wants to visit our build when it gets underway in March/April are very welcome. I'll also share the cost modelling so people can poke at the details and use it for themselves. 

 

[Ferdinand]

Forgot to say.

 

You need to put detailed thought into your VAT reclaim at the start, because how you set up your contracts, who buys what etc can have a major impact.

[Ferdinand]

22 minutes ago, Visti said:

I've been continually astounded by the fantastic level of input from the community on here; creating an account here is the best decision I've made in this self-build process to date! I'll defiantly be taking up offers of visiting your builds/completed homes and to take on any advice you'd be willing to impart. 

I'll PM those of you who've already offered shortly. Same offer goes for me: anyone who wants to visit our build when it gets underway in March/April are very welcome. I'll also share the cost modelling so people can poke at the details and use it for themselves. 

 

 

Not sure if I am supposed to say this as I am not on the Forum Management Group, but it is a user-financed forum and the Tip Jar appears here from time to time if you wish to contribute in due course. This is totally voluntary.

 

No idea what others do, but I think a donation of £10-30 a year is probably OK towards the costs of keeping the place running and building up reserves.

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2017 by Ferdinand

[Visti]

So! Thanks to you all the cost estimates have been revisited following the suggestions here and we've managed to plug some line items with quotes. We're now in a position whereby we're confident we can continue with the self build without compromising the key elements of the house nor going bankrupt. It ought to allow us to potentially take some knocks on the way if (when!) they occur.

 

 

 

It isn't perfect by a long shot, though it feels a lot more realistic than the Quantity Surveyor and will be a good baseline for moving forwards. It'll probably creep up by ~£100/m² through discretionary spending, but at least that wont be hidden!

 

If anyone wants access to the excel model they're welcome to a redacted copy placed on Google Drive here. It could use some additional functionality for identifying estimates vs quotes vs actual's which I'm sure will be built in in time.

[oldkettle]

@Visti, one position I don't understand here is Walls - what does it cover? 

[Ferdinand]

@Visti

 

Could you give us a quick summary on the main savings you have kept.

Some of those have gone back up again - eg you have got your posh kitchen back .

 

F

[Jeremy Harris]

Also, you still have the foundations and frame separately costed.  Bear in mind that, if going for an MBC frame it will include a passive slab foundation (and usually UFH pipes).

[ProDave]

1 minute ago, JSHarris said:

Also, you still have the foundations and frame separately costed.  Bear in mind that, if going for an MBC frame it will include a passive slab foundation (and usually UFH pipes).

But wasn't it a Graven Hill condition that you buy their "golden brick" foundation as part of the plot, so local rules may prevent your chosen contractor from doing their usual package.

[Jeremy Harris]

6 minutes ago, ProDave said:

But wasn't it a Graven Hill condition that you buy their "golden brick" foundation as part of the plot, so local rules may prevent your chosen contractor from doing their usual package.

 

If so, then that is completely and absolutely barking mad, in fact it's insanity personified.  How on earth can ANY self build be constrained by a crap foundation that comes as a part of the plot?  It's nuts, and  makes no sense whatsoever.

 

If a vendor tried to impose such an unworkable, expensive and ludicrous condition of sale on any plot I was interested in I'd just walk away, as it would mean making far too many compromises and inevitably result in poor thermal performance.

[dpmiller]

On my quote from MBC, frame and founds are two very separate prices.

[ProDave]

Perhaps @Visti can confirm or not.

 

I recall on another discussion about the Graven Hill plots that they were obsessed with the end builder not being able to reclaim the VAT for the provision of services to the plots, and they "solved" the issue by selling the "golden brick" foundation package including service connections which would be eligible for zero rating.

 

I thought at the time it was a restriction too far.  I don't know if this is how they ended up progressing or if the idea was dropped.

[Visti]

12 hours ago, ProDave said:

Perhaps @Visti can confirm or not.

 

That I certainly can! In fact, there are a couple of articles on NaCSBA which cover GH planning in general.

 

Another article on NaCSBA covers the tax implications specifically surrounding serviced plots where they cover the approach GH has taken. It's complicated and not ideal, but I believe that is more down to Government Policy not having adapted to this sort of scheme as opposed to the council trying to make a quick dime. 

 

12 hours ago, dpmiller said:

On my quote from MBC, frame and founds are two very separate prices.

 

Same for us; about £22k for the passive slab and £43k for the frame and then various upgrade packages for the insulation. The substructure estimate above is for a beam and block foundation however as we couldn't go with MBC for that in the end.

 

12 hours ago, ProDave said:

But wasn't it a Graven Hill condition that you buy their "golden brick" foundation as part of the plot, so local rules may prevent your chosen contractor from doing their usual package.

 

12 hours ago, JSHarris said:

If so, then that is completely and absolutely barking mad, in fact it's insanity personified.  How on earth can ANY self build be constrained by a crap foundation that comes as a part of the plot?  It's nuts, and  makes no sense whatsoever.

 

If a vendor tried to impose such an unworkable, expensive and ludicrous condition of sale on any plot I was interested in I'd just walk away, as it would mean making far too many compromises and inevitably result in poor thermal performance.

 

The only restriction we've had in place in this regard is the type of foundation that needs to be applied due to the local ground conditions that GH surveyed prior to our plot reservation. It was defined in the 'Plot Passport'... the document that defines the minimum requirements of the build in line with the GH Design Code / LDO. More details in the first article linked above!

 

"Type of Ground Floor Slab: The proposed form of suspended ground floor slab; e.g. precast concrete beam and block, cast in situ reinforced concrete, etc. (NB: the ground floor slabs will need to be suspended to allow for heave and the expansive, shrink / heave of the highly plastic underlying Oxford Clay)."

 

Otherwise we were free to pick and chose. We were keen on having MBC do the foundation as well as it would ensure continuous insulation between that and the frame. GH worked quite hard to help us make it work in so far as to offering to hire MBC direct to do the work and looking into alternative structural warranty providers who may accept them (Premier Guarantee didn't, who are the ones included in the Golden Brick). Ultimately it was the latter that caused us to throw in the towel as the administrative faff of getting another provider and the outlay of a couple extra thousand quid wasn't worth the delay.

 

We know that this is far from the typical self-build experience, but unfortunately there's little other choice in Oxfordshire unless we're stupidly lucky in finding land (failed at that for 4 years) or win the lottery! Financially this is the best opportunity we have to build near where we want to stay.

 

12 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

Could you give us a quick summary on the main savings you have kept. Some of those have gone back up again - eg you have got your posh kitchen back .

 

Biggest difference is the £36k of DIY we've identified as potential savings which is really a big factor in cutting down the labor cost which is high here in Oxfordshire. Primarially in the Superstructure, Finishes and Services

 

Areas cut down:

• -£5k Drainage (dependent on Golden Brick though!)
• -£2.5k Service Connections (dependent on Golden Brick though!)
• -£9k Heating (simplified from ASHP to Gas Boiler)
• -£8k Electricals (removed solar voltaics)
• -£7K Drive (can wait until we move in)
• -£6k Veranda (can wait until we move in)
• -£3.5k Landscaping (can wait until we move in)
• -£3k Tiling and Joinery (out! can wait until we move in)

Areas that went up:

• +£7 Roof (upgraded corrugated steel to zink cladding)
• +£10k Frame (Cellulose insulation)
• +£5k Kitchen (I believe people were right in that we were specking too low. Can always get a temporary IKEA one though!)

 

13 hours ago, oldkettle said:

one position I don't understand here is Walls - what does it cover? 

 

That'd be the double layer of plasterboard (£5 - 6.5/m2) and the inner wall acoustics (£4/m2). We may halve this later, but given I'm of the large and accident prone persuasion I do like the idea of walls with a bit more of a sturdy feel to them. About 50%+ of this we plan to save via DIY

 

[Mr Punter]

17 minutes ago, Visti said:

That'd be the double layer of plasterboard (£5 - 6.5/m2) and the inner wall acoustics (£4/m2). We may halve this later, but given I'm of the large and accident prone persuasion I do like the idea of walls with a bit more of a sturdy feel to them. About 50%+ of this we plan to save via DIY

 

 

We have used 15mm Knauf Soundshield Plus in a recent development.  You will only need one layer.  It is a lot tougher than normal plasterboard - a good compromise between p/board and Fermacell.

[oldkettle]

35 minutes ago, Visti said:

That'd be the double layer of plasterboard (£5 - 6.5/m2) and the inner wall acoustics (£4/m2). We may halve this later, but given I'm of the large and accident prone persuasion I do like the idea of walls with a bit more of a sturdy feel to them. About 50%+ of this we plan to save via DIY

 

Thank you.

As wall acoustics is included in "Walls" line why is there a separate "Acoustics" item worth quite a lot even including savings? You will need some between the floors of course, but I think the amount is going to be comparable with the 155m2 line you have for internal walls (smaller size but possibly double layer). Unless you are adding it in the first floor ceiling as well?

Edited November 5, 2017 by oldkettle

[PeterW]

33 minutes ago, Visti said:

-£9k Heating (simplified from ASHP to Gas Boiler)

 

So I take it you went the MCS route ..??

 

Gas boilers don’t like underfloor heating unless you put a buffer tank in so factor that in ..! Given you’ve said you want to have a big family friendly house, unless you go very big on the boiler, a combi will not cut it for DHW so you are back to an unvented cylinder. A 400 litre UVC with a 9kw ASHP has change out of £3k if you buy right, and it’s much easier to link into UFH. 

 

If you have a cellulose filled frame, heating is the least of your concerns !

[Stones]

+1 to @PeterW comments.  Our 8.5kW ASHP and preplumbed 300L cylinder package cost just over £4K delivered.  All the gubbins on the cylinder so it was simply a case of the plumber and electrician making simple and relatively quick connections.  You can read more in my blog here:

 

 

DHW is costing me 5p/kWh in energy (and we pay more for electricity on the north of Scotland than other parts of the country).  

[SteamyTea]

10 minutes ago, Stones said:

and we pay more for electricity on the north of Scotland than other parts of the country

Not if you are one the cheapest duel fuel deal

https://www.ukpower.co.uk/regional_energy_prices

 

But shows that there really is little benefit in shopping around unless you are on a dreadful deal.

[lizzie]

Sorry I cant work the quote bit here but did I read correctly Visti further back on this thread as saying MBC slab and frame were not accepted by warranty provider Prremier Guarantee?

 

We have MBC slab and frame and Premier Guarantee warranty, there was no problem in Prem Gtee accepting MBC

[ProDave]

15 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Not if you are one the cheapest duel fuel deal

https://www.ukpower.co.uk/regional_energy_prices

 

But shows that there really is little benefit in shopping around unless you are on a dreadful deal.

I am sure @Stones is on the same Iresa tariff as I am, and you won't find cheaper at the moment.

[Stones]

@ProDave, I am indeed.  No gas up here so no benefit from duel fuel discounts.

 

Shopping around helps only if to prevent you being put on a dreadful deal when your good deal ends.

 

There is a difference over the whole UK (appreciate the following link is for business but illustrates the point) due to the varying cost of delivering electricity region by region.

 

https://www.businessjuice.co.uk/energy-guides/energy-prices-by-region/

[SteamyTea]

10 minutes ago, Stones said:

Shopping around helps only if to prevent you being put on a dreadful deal when your good deal ends.

Yes

I think this is a topic for another thread.

 

[ProDave]

20 minutes ago, Stones said:

@ProDave, I am indeed.  No gas up here so no benefit from duel fuel discounts.

 

Shopping around helps only if to prevent you being put on a dreadful deal when your good deal ends.

 

There is a difference over the whole UK (appreciate the following link is for business but illustrates the point) due to the varying cost of delivering electricity region by region.

 

https://www.businessjuice.co.uk/energy-guides/energy-prices-by-region/

The extra cost is put down a "distribution cost"  It must be a bit galling on Orkney, where you generate more on the islands than you use, to still be hit with this surcharge.

[Calvinmiddle]

On 04/11/2017 at 07:41, recoveringacademic said:

 

Just one sentence each (from @PeterW and @Calvinmiddle) plus a casual remark from our SE  saved £13,500.  

 

 

You’re welcome Ian ? I didn’t even know, which sentence was it?  I didn’t know any of my thoughts were worth that much - or even a third if I share credit with @PeterW and your SE.