Balcony leading to flat roof....does it need fall protection?

[Thorfun]

hello. trying to figure something out before I approach building control. we have a balcony that leads on to a flat roof. as there's no "fall" per-se on to the roof does it need fall protection or simply a barrier of some kind to stop some muppet walking on the flat roof and then falling off that?

 

here's a photo of said balcony -> flat roof

 

 

obviously the sides of the balcony will need fall protection and the balustrades will be designed as such but I fail to see why the edge leading on to the flat roof would need to resist a force that would result in a fall as there's nowhere to actually fall and maybe a simply rail will do the job of stopping someone walking out on to the roof.

 

anyone know the nuances in the building regs on this one?

 

cheers.

[JohnMo]

If can walk on it even if not designed for walk on it needs fall protection. So you need to stop them going on the green roof. Remember you cannot use horizontal bars etc that a child could climb up and over 

[ProDave]

I would say it needs the same rail.  Otherwise BC will say nothing to stop you walking onto the green roof then falling off that.

 

Of course if that bit of handrail were to fall down after completion......

[ETC]

Needs 1100mm high guarding.

[Thorfun]

16 minutes ago, ETC said:

Needs 1100mm high guarding.

yes. but that's from floor level, right? so as the tiles are about 400mm below the parapet we would only need to put a 700mm balustrade on it.

 

57 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I would say it needs the same rail.  Otherwise BC will say nothing to stop you walking onto the green roof then falling off that.

 

Of course if that bit of handrail were to fall down after completion......

 

the problem we have is we don't want to penetrate the waterproofing system with screws to hold down the balustrade. so we're trying to come up with a way to not have to do that and to also get it past building control.

 

the side balustrades can attach to the outside of the balcony but the front edge has nowhere to be fixed to without penetrating the waterproofing.

 

just another example of not knowing what we were doing at the time as if we did we would've fitted the fixing plates before waterproofing. but we are where we're at and need to find a solution.

[ToughButterCup]

2 hours ago, Thorfun said:

.... does it need fall protection or simply a barrier of some kind to stop some muppet ....

 

If you are asking a question about barriers and something as  common as people falling over --- then the answer is YES.

One day, it could be you. God forbid. Or a toddler, or .......

[Thorfun]

2 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

 

If you are asking a question about barriers and something as  common as people falling over --- then the answer is YES.

One day, it could be you. God forbid. Or a toddler, or .......

don't get me wrong. I want to stop people climbing on to the flat roof but fall protection needs to be able to withstand specific forces etc and I was wondering if a simple barrier would suffice as if it did ever fall over due to excessive force then no one is going to fall as the flat roof is above the level of the balcony!

[Thorfun]

10 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

the problem we have is we don't want to penetrate the waterproofing system with screws to hold down the balustrade. so we're trying to come up with a way to not have to do that and to also get it past building control.

 

the side balustrades can attach to the outside of the balcony but the front edge has nowhere to be fixed to without penetrating the waterproofing.

 

just another example of not knowing what we were doing at the time as if we did we would've fitted the fixing plates before waterproofing. but we are where we're at and need to find a solution.

 

@Gus Potter quick question and out of interest.....is it possible for an SE to design a balcony that could resist the forces required to pass building regulations WITHOUT having fixings on the long side of the balcony? as said we can fix to the outside of short sides through the cladding and in to the timber of the balcony.

 

if it is possible are you able to give a rough estimate as to how much a design like that might cost in SE England? I don't want to waste a local SE's time with an enquiry if it's going to be £££ as we'd just be better off face fixing and filling with and fitting on to loads of CT1! we could then potentially get the roofer back to cover the fixings with the same waterproof membrane.

[PNAmble]

8 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

the problem we have is we don't want to penetrate the waterproofing system with screws to hold down the balustrade. so we're trying to come up with a way to not have to do that and to also get it past building control.

we looked at a number of options for a our flat roof which were non penetrating.  They needed to go on before the green roof but are counter balanced.  Eg. https://simplifiedsafety.co.uk
 

This was to prevent a fall from an escape window onto flat roof (we also hadn’t put any fixing in before the membrane).  In the end we went a different fire escape strategy, so never discussed the full details with the BCO

[Russell griffiths]

Obviously ask building control, you might find a pragmatic one. 
 

height wise it needs to be 1100 high, but if you mount it on top of that wall, you must ensure the wall can’t be used as a step up, if you can step on it then you will need to measure your 1100 from the top of the wall not the roof height. 

[Thorfun]

24 minutes ago, PNAmble said:

we looked at a number of options for a our flat roof which were non penetrating.  They needed to go on before the green roof but are counter balanced.  Eg. https://simplifiedsafety.co.uk
 

This was to prevent a fall from an escape window onto flat roof (we also hadn’t put any fixing in before the membrane).  In the end we went a different fire escape strategy, so never discussed the full details with the BCO

Yeah. Definitely too late for us for that!! 😢

[Thorfun]

15 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

height wise it needs to be 1100 high, but if you mount it on top of that wall, you must ensure the wall can’t be used as a step up, if you can step on it then you will need to measure your 1100 from the top of the wall not the roof height. 

Good point. Thank you. 
 

16 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

Obviously ask building control, you might find a pragmatic one

Think I’ll ask if he can come and have a chat about it. Maybe while he’s here checking other stuff for sign off. 

[ETC]

55 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

yes. but that's from floor level, right? so as the tiles are about 400mm below the parapet we would only need to put a 700mm balustrade on it.

 

Only and only if you install it flush with the inside face of the wall so that the parapet doesn’t create a step otherwise 1100mm from the top of the parapet.

[scottishjohn]

Ihave same problem with my castlations --each one needs glass in between the wall sections which are high enough

 idon,t see a problem with pentration for fixing bolts --you just use sealer underneath the brackets tocseal it all up

Edited May 30 by scottishjohn

[LnP]

56 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

you must ensure the wall can’t be used as a step up, if you can step on it then you will need to measure your 1100 from the top of the wall not the roof height. 

That's not my experience.

 

I have a balustrade around the outside of a terrace on a flat roof which has a parapet wall round the edge. The parapet is about 350 mm above the level of the terrace flat roof. I asked BC if I needed to consider somebody stepping up onto the parapet. They said no. Otherwise the balustrade would have been 1450 mm above the floor of the terrace. It would have been like being a monkey in a cage. The BC final certification visit was by a different person and he also had no issues with the balustrade - 1100 above the terrace floor level and therefore 750 mm above the top of the copings on the parapet.

 

Comment from the BCO was that you don't need to cover every eventuality - you could have a chair against the balustrade and somebody could climb on it.

[scottishjohn]

5 minutes ago, LnP said:

That's not my experience.

 

I have a balustrade around the outside of a terrace on a flat roof which has a parapet wall round the edge. The parapet is about 350 mm above the level of the terrace flat roof. I asked BC if I needed to consider somebody stepping up onto the parapet. They said no. Otherwise the balustrade would have been 1450 mm above the floor of the terrace. It would have been like being a monkey in a cage. The BC final certification visit was by a different person and he also had no issues with the balustrade - 1100 above the terrace floor level and therefore 750 mm above the top of the copings on the parapet.

 

Comment from the BCO was that you don't need to cover every eventuality - you could have a chair against the balustrade and somebody could climb on it.

Isuppose it depmds on how kuch you like your grand children/

probably why mosy use glass + s/s posts for this sort of problem -simple to get and fix 

 the fixings need to be big enough to dupport your drunken fat friend leaning against it

Edited May 30 by scottishjohn

[LnP]

 

I didn't like the idea of penetrating the GRP or the copings with the balustrade brackets so I used fascia mounts.

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, Thorfun said:

is it possible for an SE to design a balcony  WITHOUT having fixings on the long side of the balcony? as said we can fix to the outside of short sides through the cladding

Balustrade (???)  fixed to the 2 ends only with a couple of rails linking them to form the long edge? Easy enough but the spars are getting a little bit chunky for attractiveness and it might be a special, with nice paint costing as much as the metal.

 

I'd expect there to be a proprietary solution out there somewhere though. 

 

What about the balustrade posts sitting in concrete blocks that sit on the lower roof? It would work, but might be considered too temporary and removable.

 

[LnP]

There's a lesson here which I wish I'd known before I built our roof terrace. If you're planning a balcony or roof terrace, think about the balustrade.

 

How will you mount it? I think it's a bad idea to bolt it to the roof and penetrate the roof covering and have to rely on sealing around the bolts. Also I wasn't happy to bolt it to the copings. Their function is to keep water out of the wall so not a good idea to penetrate them. Also, for strength I'd have been relying on the mortar bond between the copings and the GRP cap across the top of the wall which I wasn't happy about.

How will you achieve the required 1100 mm height required by building regs? Doing it the way I did passed BC, but I do take the point that somebody could step onto the parapet.

 

If I had my time again, I'd build that roof without a parapet and just take the GRP across to the edge and down onto a fascia board. It would have saved me a lot of money in building the parapet (bricks, copings, GRP flashings, rain outlets) and I could have used an off the shelf balustrade system rather than having to fabricate something. I didn't realise the parapet would be a hassle it was and was convinced by others it would look nice!

Edited May 31 by LnP

[scottishjohn]

I am guessing htis was not shown on the planning aplication ,or they would have  pointed this problem out

 

 

 

 

 

[Thorfun]

9 hours ago, LnP said:

 

I didn't like the idea of penetrating the GRP or the copings with the balustrade brackets so I used fascia mounts.

Sadly we have waterproofing on both sides of the fascia for one side. 

[LnP]

4 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

I am guessing htis was not shown on the planning aplication ,or they would have  pointed this problem out

It was on the planning drawings but for building regs I didn't do a Full Plans Submission, just a Building Notice. You're right that if I'd submitted building regs drawings they might have commented. But this was a renovation of a dilapidated Victorian coach house and there was a lot of uncertainty what problems we'd find and how we'd solve them. Building Notice seemed like the right way to go. This was the right decision albeit that the balustrade caused some head scratching.

[Thorfun]

9 hours ago, saveasteading said:

I'd expect there to be a proprietary solution out there somewhere though. 

there are systems for flat roofs but most seem to need to be fixed before waterproofing.

 

9 hours ago, saveasteading said:

What about the balustrade posts sitting in concrete blocks that sit on the lower roof? It would work, but might be considered too temporary and removable.

yeah. probably deemed temporary. 

 

9 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Balustrade (???)  fixed to the 2 ends only with a couple of rails linking them to form the long edge? Easy enough but the spars are getting a little bit chunky for attractiveness and it might be a special, with nice paint costing as much as the metal.

I was thinking that we could attach to the house wall where I have put noggins in place to accept the first and last post and balustrade and then have some form of U-shaped bracket sitting over the parapet that the other posts will fit to without having to fix but I don't know if that will work or be strong enough. it's why we're considering approaching a structural engineer to do the calculations. but I just don't know how much that will cost us! I'm wondering if it will be cheaper to fix through the waterproofing and then have the roofer back in to apply another layer of the waterproof membrane where appropriate.

[Russell griffiths]

10 hours ago, LnP said:

That's not my experience.

 

I have a balustrade around the outside of a terrace on a flat roof which has a parapet wall round the edge. The parapet is about 350 mm above the level of the terrace flat roof. I asked BC if I needed to consider somebody stepping up onto the parapet. They said no. Otherwise the balustrade would have been 1450 mm above the floor of the terrace. It would have been like being a monkey in a cage. The BC final certification visit was by a different person and he also had no issues with the balustrade - 1100 above the terrace floor level and therefore 750 mm above the top of the copings on the parapet.

 

Comment from the BCO was that you don't need to cover every eventuality - you could have a chair against the balustrade and somebody could climb on it.

I think this is why he needs to talk to bc, I’ve been told even a flat rail that makes up part of the railing could be used for a foothold. 
but this was something I did 5-6 years ago, so it could be a bit of common sense has come into play. 
 

I have a bc officer who has overlooked a couple of things on my current place as common sense says it’s fine. 

[George]

19 hours ago, Thorfun said:

hello. trying to figure something out before I approach building control. we have a balcony that leads on to a flat roof. as there's no "fall" per-se on to the roof does it need fall protection or simply a barrier of some kind to stop some muppet walking on the flat roof and then falling off that?

 

The Building Regulations can't cover every eventuality but it'd be Part K. I would say that because there is no fall risk along that edge then you do not need the full edge protection. It would essentially be a 'demarcation' barrier.

 

However, I would make the demarcation barrier suitable for p3.3 in Part K - that is, it can't be climbed over/defeated by children. So it'd basically have to be full edge protection except for the full restraint forces... so in reality, probably just the same as along the other two edges.

 

Note that the flat roof area does need to comply with p3.4 as green roofs do need occasional maintenance, so be prepared to justify the lack of guarding on that section of roof.  

 

Edited May 31 by George