Wrong measurement for skylight

[Moonshine]

16 minutes ago, Oceanjules said:

The client didn’t sign the contract. The end customer would be signing it without checking the specs as she’s an elderly. She wouldn’t know any technical side of it. 
 

Looks like they’re gonna get away with it reading that last part. 

 

i wouldn't be so sure, also 'window company charging OAP for their mistake' isn't a good reputation to have especially reviews / local media.

[Alan Ambrose]

>>> Looks like they’re gonna get away with it

 

No, they don't have to. The OP should at least (a) send them a firm 'final demand' kind of letter with a two week window for reply, (b) then file a simple county court case. If it can be reduced to a simple 'money claim' e.g. just claim a refund - then it can all be done online in 10 minutes. I don't recall that the OP mentioned a £ figure, but I guess it is in the £5K range? That generally means no legal costs ever awarded unless someone is being a complete idiot. A lot of suppliers will fold once they figure (a) they want to use a solicitor, (b) they will have to travel to the claimant's local county court, (c) they're risking their own legal costs. Of course, the direct cost of discarding a panel is only a fraction (30%?) of the customer invoice amount, so it's not such a big deal to write it off.

 

 

 

 

[Adsibob]

Reading the t and c you posted, I’m now of a different view to what I was previously. You have signed and agreed to the “specification” on the survey. Although not a bulletproof argument, you can certainly argue that “specification” does not include dimensions. A dictionary is an important tool in contractual interpretation and the dictionary definition of specification is:

 

“a detailed description of the design and materials used to make something”

 

So that is all you have signed off on. Although they may try to argue another, broader definition, ie one that includes dimensions, such as:

“an act of identifying something precisely or of stating a precise requirement”

 

(which is another dictionary definition I found online, and such could arguably include definitions), there is an important principle of English contract law called the contra proferentum rule. This holds that where a contract has been drafted by a business and is signed by a consumer, without the consumer having the opportunity to negotiate the wording of the contract, then any ambiguity will be construed against the business. The public policy rationale behind this rule is that it is unfair to read the ambiguity in favour of the business who drafted it. It’s a strong consumer protection.

Edited February 10 by Adsibob

[Moonshine]

@adsibob another point to note is what other trade would require a sign off and accepting a liability of specs.

 

Imagining a structural engineer doing this, no way would I be qualified to sign off specs and accept liability for thier specs.

 

This is compounded that it expects the end customer to sign it. How is is reasonable for a older lady to check all the measurements and specification. Are the glazing company expecting her to get up a ladder?

 

[Adsibob]

Postscript: you can also make arguments about implied terms, such as it was implied that the surveyor would be competent and that the survey would be accurate. And that you were signing off on the basis of that implied term, which is such an obvious statement that it goes without saying.

[Adsibob]

1 minute ago, Moonshine said:

@adsibob another point to note is what other trade would require a sign off and accepting a liability of specs.

 

Imagining a structural engineer doing this, no way would I be qualified to sign off specs and accept liability for thier specs.

 

This is compounded that it expects the end customer to sign it. How is is reasonable for a older lady to check all the measurements and specification. Are the glazing company expecting her to get up a ladder?

 

Yes, I agree. Also goes to the implied term point I just posted.

 

 Threaten a lawsuit!

[joe90]

Can the OP not get their builder to state (write) that the hole for the skylight was built to x,y dimentions as per drawings and not made bigger as implied by the skylight manufacturer.?

[Conor]

27 minutes ago, Moonshine said:

@adsibob another point to note is what other trade would require a sign off and accepting a liability of specs.

 

Imagining a structural engineer doing this, no way would I be qualified to sign off specs and accept liability for thier specs.

 

This is compounded that it expects the end customer to sign it. How is is reasonable for a older lady to check all the measurements and specification. Are the glazing company expecting her to get up a ladder?

 

 

This is a huge big bear for me. Our glazing spec was 17 pages, to the layman, gibberish. Buried somewhere, was an incorrect RAL number. Also three units that should have been toughened, but weren't. Nobody spotted it. Luckily we had email correspondence requesting the colour and confirmation, and drawings showing need for toughened units. Window company didn't argue and sent somebody out to spray the frame the correct colour and fit replacement units.

 

To the OP, I'd argue back saying it's unreasonable to confirm technical details beyond your knowledge, and that the error is gross and obvious that suggests incompetence!

[Mr Punter]

I have just had some Velfac windows supplied and fitted.  I noticed there was an obscured glass window in a kitchen area which I wanted clear.  Looking at the signed order it did specify obscure so I thought I would be on the hook for the cost of a replacement.

 

I contacted Velfac who apologised and said it was their error and they will send a replacement sash FOC.

[Adsibob]

8 hours ago, joe90 said:

Can the OP not get their builder to state (write) that the hole for the skylight was built to x,y dimentions as per drawings and not made bigger as implied by the skylight manufacturer.?

Yes, in a signed witness statement, deployed in litigation.

[SteamyTea]

On 10/02/2024 at 08:50, Adsibob said:

an important principle of English contract law called the contra proferentum rule. This holds that where a contract has been drafted by a business and is signed by a consumer, without the consumer having the opportunity to negotiate the wording of the contract, then any ambiguity will be construed against the business.

That is well worth knowing, I often feel that the terms may be unfair, but have no choice but to sign them if I want the service i.e. banking, energy etc.

 

I am surprised that @Pocster has not been along as he had a similar problem i.e. what he thought was the size was different from what the manufacturer thought was the size.

Edited February 11 by SteamyTea

[Pocster]

3 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

am surprised that @Pocster has not been along as he had a similar problem i.e. what he thought was the size was different from what the manufacturer thought was the size.

I had exactly this . The drawings in my opinion were conflicting and contradictory. Took the company to small claims court and lost . The judge said I “ must of known” - yet she needed the drawings explained to her . I argued that was my point I.e not obvious to a customer - but she wasn’t having any of it . Apparently according to her I realised *my* mistake once they had been delivered .

[Alan Ambrose]

My experience of the county court is that it is, like planning, a bit of a flaky enterprise and depends a lot on the individual judge. So, don't read a single data point as gospel. The judges are, apparently district judges (i.e. junior) (rather than lay magistrates) and therefore qualified as either solicitors or barristers. But a single person makes the judgement and they might not have any practical skills or relevant experience or know how to read a drawing.

 

But...these are low monetary value cases, often with unrepresented members of the public or maybe one side represented by a solicitor, often done and dusted in 1/2h to an hour or two. They're most unlikely to go to appeal, so not much oversight. I think there's a lot of scope for the judge's personal opinion rather than a strict reading of contract or consumer law.

 

Also, don't underestimate the impact of the 'final notice' or 'letter before action' and the initial court papers with shortish timescales for reply. Those concentrate the recipients attention and they therefore force the recipient to decide (a) do we want to contest and (b) do we want to invest the time, energy and money required to contest. I think that 50-75% of recipients will fold or negotiate a mutually agreeable solution at that point. Tick the box for mediation to demonstrate how wonderfully reasonable you are and how much you are trying not to waste the judge's time. And that's then another hassle for the recipient and another few hoops for them to jump through.

 

Meanwhile you want to get your job done. Give the supplier one last opportunity to address the problem for free or cheap, then order from another supplier and start the court process with the original. Unusually for UK red tape, the process is about as painless as it can be. You can file your case in 10 minutes if you've done it before, 25 if you haven't. It'll take a while to conclude, 6 to 9 months, if it goes the whole distance - but it often doesn't need to.

[Oceanjules]

Hello everyone. Thank you all for your lovely input. I had sent them an email last week providing them the pictures and everything and today they got back to me saying the following

 

 

I have spoken to our surveyor and he confirms that we measured at the point you were at, as shown in the first photo.

Obviously after we attended, the opening for the roof-light was made smaller as shown in the second photo.

 

This would be chargeable as my colleague has quoted to you.

 

 

I then replied to this person sending the pictures back again with date stamps. 
 

1. 1st picture first visit (they claimed that was the 5.6m) 19th of November. Surveyor told us to arrange again for another visit to measure the upstand. 

 

2. Just put ply on the roof (24th of November)

 

3. Emailed them saying the upstand is ready to be measured. (Picture 30th November )

 

4. Surveyor revisited to measure the upstand.(1st of December) 

 

 

they are so arrogant and not accepting their mistake. 

 

 

 

 

[joe90]

20 minutes ago, Oceanjules said:

3. Emailed them saying the upstand is ready to be measured. (Picture 30th November )

 

4. Surveyor revisited to measure the upstand.(1st of December) 

So the surveyor re visited 1st December and didn’t notice the hole was smaller, (not finished) plus his original visit any measurements were not accurate as no surrounds or upstands were in place which would have made the hole narrower. Nah, take them to court (see @Adsibob advise , his day job judging by his knowledge).

[Kelvin]

They are clearly in the wrong. What was the point of his second visit if he didn’t measure it. It’s clear it’s their mistake. 

[Oceanjules]

This guy who’s been sending me emails has been covering this surveyor who has “30 years” of experience. They don’t even accept that they the surveyor measured it wrong.

[joe90]

23 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

They are clearly in the wrong. What was the point of his second visit if he didn’t measure it. It’s clear it’s their mistake. 

+1, 

[Oceanjules]

The window company is ignoring all my evidences and basically covering this surveyor who accused us of making the window smaller. I am waiting for them to reply til tomorrow. 
 

Can someone advise how to proceed legally speaking? I know someone had advised to go for small claim but do I also have to complain to trading standards? 
 

Never experienced this before and I don’t know how to tell them I’m taking legal actions. 
 

thank you. 

[joe90]

@Adsibob will know.

[Oceanjules]

1 minute ago, joe90 said:

@Adsibob will know.

Thank you ever so much 🙏🙏🙏

[Tom]

I think you all need to meet on site to sort it out - the boss man, his surveyor, your builder and you. Going backwards and forwards over email clearly isn't going to go anywhere and sometimes you just need to do these things in person. If they refuse then at least that's an additional point in your favour if it does go to law.

[Oceanjules]

1 hour ago, Tom said:

I think you all need to meet on site to sort it out - the boss man, his surveyor, your builder and you. Going backwards and forwards over email clearly isn't going to go anywhere and sometimes you just need to do these things in person. If they refuse then at least that's an additional point in your favour if it does go to law.

Thank you. Just sent them an email:

Sending emails back and forward are obviously not getting us anywhere. I want to sort this out in person and if you, your surveyor and the carpenter can meet on site preferably this week, please come. I have given you evidences to back up what we’re saying and obviously you’re not having it. 

I have been waiting for you to resolve this issue amicably but pride seems to be in the way. If I don’t hear from you by Monday on how you will rectify this issue, I will have to take this matter to court. I don’t want to waste judge’s time as much as possible but if that’s the only way to get this sorted then I have no choice. 

 

Thank you all so much for giving me courage. I feel like I’m not the only one in this battle. 

[Canski]

Ohh you are having a battle. Site meeting is the only way to resolve this.
 

I guess I should feel lucky and  I bet you wish you were in my position. …..
It seems to be a thing with windows at the moment. I am keen to pay for my 2 sets of bifolds all I want is a correct VAT invoice and I will pay straight away. My window fitter is useless at paperwork I just want to pay him for a great job that he did a week before Xmas. If I pay him and wait for a receipt I may get it by this Xmas at best. 

[Mr Punter]

I can see that the roof opening was made smaller since it was originally framed but it is not unusual.  It looks like the far end trimmer was positioned so that it rested on the nib of wall rather than being a point load on the lintel over the opening and the numpty surveyor did not measure correctly when they came back to measure the completed structural opening with upstands.

 

If you do not get satisfaction from the meeting, issue a letter before action, including the total money amount you seek, which can include additional costs for overheads, administration, prelims, finance costs and profit.  Get quotes and lead times from at least 2 firms for the replacement cost.  Give them 14 days for receipt of a satisfactory response.  If the firm do not agree to pay your claim or make a reasonable offer, issue proceedings.  You can do this online.