Standard of workmanship

[jack]

3 hours ago, Super_Paulie said:

... you get what you pay for.

 

Not always, in my experience. There were times when we went for what we thought was a higher quality outfit based on the price and professionalism of our interactions with them, but I don't think they did any better on average than the cheaper ones.

[joe90]

Recommendation recommendation recommendation.

[Pocster]

7 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

Well how about her managing  me    then .... we all know @Pocster's a bit  , well,  you know ......  ??

 

I’m very hands on 

[jack]

2 hours ago, Kelvin said:

For this latest trade I went with the recommendation of the materials supplier who signs off all the jobs and provides the warranty. He told me if he was getting a flat roof done he would use these guys. It’s probably why I am more disappointed with it. 

 

Our window installers were the Irish distributors for the German company that made the windows.

They didn't follow the manufacturer's installation drawings - which we gave them - and missed that the frames needed to be packed up by 15 mm. This led to the cills not fitting. I chamfered off an edge of the frame at each window so the cills would fit, then they realised that the blinds (again, supplied by the manufacturer for which they were a distributor) couldn't be attached through the vertical battens in the reveals that I'd confirmed with them were not going to be in the way. I also later learned that they should have lined the aperture with a DPM, but that didn't happen.

 

And on roofing, I complained to the manufacturer about the poor adhesion of the membrane around the outlets through our parapet walls. They confirmed that all was fine and that the installation was to the "usual high standards we expect of our approved installers". Every one of those outlets leaked badly within a month of us moving in, all due to... poor adhesion of the membrane around the outlets.

I should stay away from this thread, it's bringing back too many nasty memories! 😁

[jack]

6 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Recommendation recommendation recommendation.

 

Didn't work for us. The most highly recommended guy - recommended by several friends - we had was average at best relative to the others we had onsite.

 

Example: the guy he had in doing the plasterboards noticed that a piece of steel protection we had in place to protect a 240V blinds cable at the top of the window in my study was in the way, so he just unscrewed it and threw it in the middle of the floor. The only good thing is that he was that lazy, as otherwise we'd never have known.

[Kelvin]

33 minutes ago, jack said:

 

I should stay away from this thread, it's bringing back too many nasty memories! 😁

It’s good for me as it helps me realise we will finish it 😂 

[Tom]

42 minutes ago, jack said:

 

Didn't work for us. The most highly recommended guy - recommended by several friends - we had was average at best relative to the others we had onsite.

 

 

Have to agree with Jack on this one. The guy that we waited a year for - as he was so highly recommended by our neighbours - was an absolute sh*t show. Most of the work he did needed to be redone after I'd paid him almost 7k.

[Tom]

47 minutes ago, jack said:

I should stay away from this thread, it's bringing back too many nasty memories! 😁

 

Same here. Resting pulse 10bpm higher than usual

[joe90]

Well just goes to show how really lucky I was with my builder, no problems at all and really nice to have around (no wonder he is booked up for about two years)

Edited November 17, 2023 by joe90

[SteamyTea]

Apprenticeships are very expensive.

I just had a quick look at my local skills college and they do a Level 1, 1 year course in Carpentry, £1292.

Electrical Installation Level 3 is £3345.

 

Now level 1 is really for the functionally illiterate, and Level 3 is just a gnats above a GCSE.

 

Now I know that 16 to 19 year olds get the education for free, except it is not really free, just comes out of general taxes.

I am starting to think that a Science Degree is good value (no point commenting on an Arts or Humanities one as they are pretty poor value).

 

Let us say that it cost, on average, £2k per course and you study for 3 years. My Hons Degree was 140 points, 120 ify them were actually needed. Each of the first two years was 7 subjects, so 14 in all, then the final year was 5 subjects and the project.  So 20 in all

If an apprentice does something similar  but at a lower level, then £2k times 20 comes out at £40k.

Similar price to a Science Degree.

Except they are at a much lower academic level.

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by SteamyTea

[Tom]

Sod the courses though Steamy, it's all about just giving a damn about your work

[joe90]

I have never been on a building course of any sort (tho BT taught me electric basics). Yes I do think apprenticeships are important but in my years being a builder I agree with @Tom the level of care amongst most is very poor, so even if you did do a  “course” if your level of care is poor they will never be good.

[Pocster]

20 minutes ago, Tom said:

Sod the courses though Steamy, it's all about just giving a damn about your work

There is the issue in a nutshell !

You care ( with anything in life ) then the quality will always be higher .

Sad fact is that seems lacking …

[SteamyTea]

17 minutes ago, Tom said:

Sod the courses though Steamy, it's all about just giving a damn about your work

Yes, and that is taught in the first 7 years of life (if you are a Methodist anyway).

11 minutes ago, joe90 said:

have never been on a building course of any sort

I found nd that a bit worrying. 

When I go for a meal, I like to know that the food safety standard are at a minimum at least.

Does not mean that my fish allergy will vanish, but at least I know the fish will not have been kept, unfrozen for 14 days.

 

I think there is a rather romantic notion about apprenticeships. The old master teaching the young pup all about life, the universe and everything.

In reality, it is often forced upon a worker or college lecturer, just as it is forced upon a 16 year old, who may or may not be an entitled snowflake.

 

I did an apprenticeship in toolmaking, job for life.

I often mention toolmaking to people only a decade younger than me, and they don't have a clue what a tool is.

Useless tools.

[joe90]

11 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

I found nd that a bit worrying. 

Why, unlike France where all building trades are licensed we are not, you have seen what I have done, I met all the building regulations, I never had a customer complaint when I worked as a builder and I wonder how many builders out there have been on a course? How many self builders here have been on a course (unless product specific like GRP).?

[Kelvin]

There have been four apprentices on my site. Two were treated really well by their journeymen especially the joiner. The other two were from the two different roofing companies. The standing seam apprentice did nothing but moan and was obviously not interested in learning much so just laboured mostly. The flat roofer apprentice was constantly berated and bulled mostly for the quality of his work but also for how he looked (was called, and I quote, “you are the ugliest (expletive deleted)ing guy I’ve ever seen”) I went say something but the electrician advised me to stay out of it. When they came back to fix some of the problems with the roof they told me the apprentice was fired in part for the workmanship on my roof. However, my view of this was they just scapegoated him because ultimately it’s the lead guys responsibility to check the work as they go and at the end. Now it’s only four examples but I suspect a lot of apprentices aren’t treated or trained very well. 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Kelvin

[SteamyTea]

23 minutes ago, joe90 said:

you have seen what I have done

Yes, and I am not criticising  your work.

The point is, that for every talented person, there are a lot more that are not skilled enough, do not care enough, and work for companies that are run by fraudsters (I worked for someone that would claim that his 'engineers' were all qualified plumbers, electricians, SEs or whatever needed to be said to get the sale or fob off an angry customer.  He prided himself that he got a Physics 'O' Level by failing his Physics 'A' Level).

28 minutes ago, joe90 said:

unlike France where all building trades are licensed

Is that such a bad thing.  Builders are modifying buildings that can cost upwards of £120,000, often £million.

27 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

There have been four apprentices on my site. Two were treated really well by their journeymen especially the joiner. The other two were from the two different roofing companies.

I have seen some dreadful treatment of staff in some companies.  I was lucky that I was treated very well where I did my apprentice.  Not so in all cases.

In my current sector (catering), work place bullying is still very much accepted.  It is not acceptable anywhere.  I blame Gordon Ramsey who has made million out of being a horrible (expletive deleted) that likes to belittle everyone else.

 

I don't know what the answer is to improve the attitude towards work and improve the level of skills needed.  It is a hard job, some people just do not want to be told anything.  They are the kind of person that if you offered them a tenner, they would refuse it because they would think there is a catch somewhere.  They are also, in my experience, the type of people that prefer conspiracy theories and reality TV.

 

[Crofter]

My builder was great 😁

 

Jokes aside, I was pretty lucky with the few contractors I needed. The plasterer was brilliant. He had come up to the island for a job which was then cancelled, and was staying in his campervan while looking for work. Took one look at the site and said he'd get it done in five days. It actually took six, but he didn't charge any extra. Top bloke.

 

One of my favourite quotes is that the difference between an amateur and a professional is that an amateur does the best job they can, and a professional does the worst job they can get away with. Definitely applies to building (and many other walks of life).

[Roger440]

4 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Yes, and that is taught in the first 7 years of life (if you are a Methodist anyway).

I found nd that a bit worrying. 

When I go for a meal, I like to know that the food safety standard are at a minimum at least.

Does not mean that my fish allergy will vanish, but at least I know the fish will not have been kept, unfrozen for 14 days.

 

I think there is a rather romantic notion about apprenticeships. The old master teaching the young pup all about life, the universe and everything.

In reality, it is often forced upon a worker or college lecturer, just as it is forced upon a 16 year old, who may or may not be an entitled snowflake.

 

I did an apprenticeship in toolmaking, job for life.

I often mention toolmaking to people only a decade younger than me, and they don't have a clue what a tool is.

Useless tools.

 

My apprenticeship was bloody fantastic.

 

Simply nothing like it available to someone leaving schiool today.

[Jenki]

4 hours ago, Pocster said:

There is the issue in a nutshell !

You care ( with anything in life ) then the quality will always be higher .

Sad fact is that seems lacking …

unfortunately, this is true, but the old adage of you don't know what you don't know means even if they have care, and they try, if they don't have a fundamental understanding it will still be a shi*show. Any one can be a builder.....

 

Self builders have so much more invested in the process I'd be stunned if anyone is 90% happy with the whole process... To qualify we've done all ours so far, and I'm still unhappy with little bits😂

[eandg]

10 hours ago, Jenki said:

unfortunately, this is true, but the old adage of you don't know what you don't know means even if they have care, and they try, if they don't have a fundamental understanding it will still be a shi*show. Any one can be a builder.....

 

Self builders have so much more invested in the process I'd be stunned if anyone is 90% happy with the whole process... To qualify we've done all ours so far, and I'm still unhappy with little bits😂

I'm about 95% happy and not one for sweating the small stuff too much. Unlike the general experience I was by and large very happy with the work done by trades but most we used were either pals/folk I knew (and had confirmed by others their work was good) or recommendations, which will help reduce the risk of having a cowboy on site. The only exception I'd make is for groundworkers, and I also wouldn't let anyone near airtightness or insulation - do that yourself as there's no understanding at all among trades and not enough care for the things you won't see. 

[ToughButterCup]

I have a strong feeling that the dire state of the housing sector plays a strong role in promoting poor work. Haven't we all talked to tradies who sneer at the building standards of the major providers? Who snigger at the Building Control regime.

 

But the market will take care of that issue won't it?

 

Building Control officers in Germany are really powerful. They can ( or could when I was there) recommend that builders (tradespeople) lose their licence to practice. And the trades' association vigorously police their members.

A German mate once said to me

 

- Why should I employ a chimney sweep who can't manage a large block of flats?

 

- Cos someone else will do it cheaper...? 

( I seem to remember it takes about 5 years to qualify over there)

 

- Das ist Scheiße....

That translates as it sounds 

[SteamyTea]

I think there is a misunderstanding about education and training.

I like the example I learned during my teacher training from a rather pompous ex-army Major.

 

"If your 12 year old daughter comes home from school and says they had a sex education class, you would not feel to concerned.

If she came home and said they had sex training...."

 

Apprenticeships, old and modern were about training and experience.

[ToughButterCup]

48 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

....

Apprenticeships, old and modern were about training and experience.

 

Not only training and experience, though. 

 

Attitude is one  of those hidden aspects of any domain which hides in plain sight. You can be trained and be experieced all you like : if - post training -  your attitude accepts  a bodge as good enough - because you can hide it , then unless theres extrinsic motivation  (...I'm going to lose my licence to pratice   ..) , you won't develop as a PERSON

 

Think check-rides as a train  driver / pilot  / bus driver.  Who check-rides a plumber? (  shaaaadup @Pocster )

[j_s]

Had various trades in over the years for this house and the willful ignorance is off the scale with some of them. Ranging from a house needs to breath so draughts are fine etc to horrendous bodges that I have had to get remedied at huge expense. I'm just lucky that I have a builder who is amazing that has helped fix most of these things. Problem is, he is starting to get on a bit with a few health issues cropping up too and I really do worry who to go to in the future when he retires 🙁