Standard of workmanship

[Kelvin]

I’m starting think my expectations are too high. 
 

Yet again I find myself at odds with another trade on the quality of their workmanship. In this particular case it’s the flat roof and numerous things like long scratches on the rain trim caused by poor materials handling and banging and sliding the ladders about as just one example. There’s a long list. I’ve asked the materials distributor who recommended them for their opinion on it.
 

But it got me thinking that either it’s them and a great many trades just don’t care enough because it’s a house for some reason or it’s me and my expectations are too high. Some of the work on my house has been exceptional but some of it has been piss poor either requiring it needing re-done or I’ve given up and done it myself. In some cases, like the garage, I just accepted it and they gave me a large discount. I can understand why folk end up doing all of it themselves. One of the trades told me that dings and scratches are to be expected you’ll soon not notice them. So i took my screw driver and pretended to accidentally scratch his new van and he nearly had a fit. I asked him what the difference was because eventually you won’t notice the scratch. 
 

What’s everyone else’s experience? 
 

 

[jack]

16 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

What’s everyone else’s experience?

 

Our electrician did a great job. Plumbing was okay - not brilliant.

 

The polished concrete floors are good and the painters were pretty good (at painting, at least - they were bulls in a China shop and repeatedly broke stuff by standing on it rather than asking us to move it).

 

Everyone else was passable at best, and absolute dog5hit at worst.

 

I initially thought that maybe we weren't paying enough, or weren't being clear enough about what we wanted, but eventually I concluded that the people we were engaging weren't actually capable of doing excellent work. Even people who'd been described by friends of ours (who'd used them) as "perfectionists" turned out to be pretty poor.

 

The problem is compounded by an order of magnitude if you ask them to do anything different to what they usually do for clients who don't know or care.

 

20 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

I’ve given up and done it myself.

 

This is the major reason it took us so long to complete. We had so many bad experiences with trades that I eventually refused to hire anyone else and just did it myself. I certainly didn't always do a great job myself, but I'm certain it was better than a lot of the people I'd have hired to do it.

[saveasteading]

38 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

asked him what the difference was because eventually you won’t notice the scratch. 

He matters, you don't.

 It's normal.  Builders, especially small ones are not trained and have no agreed standards.

Sorry to say  that the client has to supervise at all times and be prepared to try diplomacy first and a stand off if necessary.

 

I must have stopped or complained about barrows being laid against metal cladding 20 times ( nb on multiple projects). The worst of that being that it would be repeat offences by my favoured (less bad than the others) small contractors.

 

BTW, aluminium ladders are very slippy laterally if laid against gutters and trims.

 

[Kelvin]

9 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

 

 

BTW, aluminium ladders are very slippy laterally if laid against gutters and trims.

 

Yes quite. I told them the same thing and guess what happened. Rather than use the ladder I had leaning up against the wood cladding lashed to the gutter on the opposite elevation he put his up on the other side of the building which I didn’t notice. A gust of wind caught it and it slid laterally, as you point out, narrowly missing the sparkies van. This caused the worst scratch but it could have clobbered someone or they could have fallen off the ladder. 

[kandgmitchell]

Sometimes it's the just don't care attitude that annoys. We had a self employed brickie rebuild a partially collapsed boundary wall. He came well recommended and did a very good job. After he left, we discovered the old butler sink we had had for years full of house leeks and other such plants, had simply been stood in as he worked along the length of the wall. A simple "can we move this mate" would have been nice. Just ignorant I suppose.

[MR10]

1 hour ago, Kelvin said:

I’m starting think my expectations are too high. 

What’s everyone else’s experience? 
 

 

It's not you, it's them.

I've come to the conclusion that the 'average' workmanship is what is now considered great, fantastic or exceptional, and they get rave reviews. 

It also appears to be an affliction that only affects the British workers who have worked on our build. Make of that what you will but that's my experience.

 

[joe90]

Well as I have said before I was really lucky my main contractor (two chaps) were great, understood what I wanted, didn’t argue ( but has some nice discussions) and did a really good job. Only subbed out a sparky (good friend of the builder) and a painter (cuz I hate painting) and I did everything else. I have recommended my builder to a few people and offered to show them what they did for me.

however.

working as a small time builder previously I was so careful subbing out, only using people that had done good work before me before as some are dire!!!!

[jack]

21 minutes ago, joe90 said:

working as a small time builder previously I was so careful subbing out, only using people that had done good work before me before as some are dire!!!!

 

The "perfectionist" subbed our cladding to his usual team and they were doing a great job. Then there was a break and the three guys who'd been doing it were replaced with two new guys. They weren't terrible, but an indicator of their attitude was the fact that they started a huge cladding job with a completely blunt blade in their saw. When they cut through at 45 degrees for the corners, it left noticeable splinters sticking out all the way along the sharp edge, which looked ridiculous.

 

I can still see the point in the cladding where the team changed.

[saveasteading]

Just now, jack said:

I can still see the point in the cladding

You will never forget. I see things on buildings from 30 years ago. nobody else sees it, because they don't know it is there.

So you have to relax  and look elsewhere.

[jack]

1 hour ago, kandgmitchell said:

Sometimes it's the just don't care attitude that annoys. We had a self employed brickie rebuild a partially collapsed boundary wall. He came well recommended and did a very good job. After he left, we discovered the old butler sink we had had for years full of house leeks and other such plants, had simply been stood in as he worked along the length of the wall. A simple "can we move this mate" would have been nice. Just ignorant I suppose.

 

Sounds like our painters. One of the young guys stood on a pile of cardboard boxes so he could reach something (we didn't expect them to be in that room on that day or we'd have cleared it out). One of the boxes included the blind box and motor to go on our rooflight. He snapped off the solar panel and cracked the housing. Of course, by the time I realised what had happened a few days later it was too late to do anything about it.

[jack]

Just now, saveasteading said:

You will never forget. I see things on buildings from 30 years ago. nobody else sees it, because they don't know it is there.

So you have to relax  and look elsewhere.

 

Yeah, there are plenty of other cock-ups for me to look at instead! 😁

[saveasteading]

I have to admit to once splashing some muddy water onto a steel cladding wall that had a small scratch. No guilt, as the whole wall was soon trashed in use by the client doing these same careless things as above described..

I recommend it. seriously, some issues will weather, so accelerating it isn't wrong.

Failing that, the odd shrub in the field of view, or a distraction

[Kelvin]

We were getting our utility room delivered. For whatever reason ours was at the back so they had to unload two others to get to mine. They sat some heavy unit up against the aluminium window cill then sat something else on the window cill. I went apeshit at them. They genuinely couldn’t understand the issue. I pointed to the large dry gravel parking area saying wtf is wrong with using that rather than using my window cill as a shelf. My other half told me off as she said I was a bit rude but as I explained they don’t know the grief I had with these window cills so part of my angst was all that so to have someone show such little respect for someone else’s property just pees me off. 

[Andehh]

We had brickies who did the walls, who realised that tearing the ROCKWOOL insulation in half (splitting it depth wise) ment it would go twice as far and halve the time they spent up and down the ladders to fetch more... They thought I was OCD in demanding the wool batterns be fitted full width otherwise I end up with half the insulation, "it's too tight to fit... it's always over engineered... Half thickness is plenty insulation... You'll never notice... "

 

Their argument of the house will be more then warm enough anyway had me livid.

 

Every evening for weeks I had to refit all the insulation/drag it out, fit the two halves back together and tuck it in. Then had to check their work and drag the insulation up onto the scaffolding to force them to fit it properly.

 

Arguing with stupid people, who are so stupid they don't realise how stupid they are.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Andehh

[Kelvin]

I feel your pain. Had similar. 

[Gone West]

We only had two trades who I considered to be very good, the plasterer/tiler and the carpenter who did the cladding and plasterboarding. The first carpenter, who was recommended, was useless, so he went on the first day. Others I let go and did it myself. I ended up doing the studwork, electrics, plumbing, kitchen, bathrooms, flooring, doors etc. The reason it took eight years.

[SteamyTea]

I have run a few factories in the past.

I would spend weeks with production engineers sorting out the logistics and manufacturing methods for a project.

Train the workforce, then watch them work in the same slapdash fashion they preferred.

12 minutes ago, Andehh said:

Arguing with stupid people, who are so stupid they don't realise how stupid they are.

Yes. One place I ran I introduced a shorter working week, but over 4 days instead of 5. 36 hours instead of 40 for the same money.

The workers genuinely thought they would be working more hours for less money.

(expletive deleted) the lot of them.

[Canski]

I'm glad it's not just me that experiences this. Even some of my own guys have been really disappointing despite being pre warned that this is MY house and I want it doing properly. I have told them that i have had enough and there are going to be some big changes.  I ended up having a full blown Victor Meldrew / John Cleese hissy fit the other evening. Walls weren't covered, brick stacks weren't covered and the sheet of plastic that I had to cut myself to put beneath the mortar tubs on the pavement had been carefully placed beneath the mortar tubs on the muddy site. Sometimes they just can't do the 'what happens next' thought process.

 

My carpenters have lost the job of doing the flat roof to me now. I don't want to hear 'thats how we always do it ' ever again. I want it right and I'm going to get it done right one way or another. It is an uphill battle. Roofers start on Monday but they have been excellent in the past. This doesn't mean that they will be excellent this time and I'm not lowering my guard. 

[Alan Ambrose]

>>> Arguing with stupid people, who are so stupid they don't realise how stupid they are.

 

+99

[SteamyTea]

[ProDave]

It helps working in the trade.  I had worked with the builders we used for the frame construction and erection before so I knew their standard of work and what they were like to work with.  Same with the joiner we used for a few of the harder details that I did not feel up to myself, I chose the one joiner out of several I know, that I thought was good enough for the job.

[jack]

1 hour ago, Andehh said:

We had brickies who did the walls, who realised that tearing the ROCKWOOL insulation in half (splitting it depth wise) ment it would go twice as far and halve the time they spent up and down the ladders to fetch more... They thought I was OCD in demanding the wool batterns be fitted full width otherwise I end up with half the insulation, "it's too tight to fit... it's always over engineered... Half thickness is plenty insulation... You'll never notice... "

 

Their argument of the house will be more then warm enough anyway had me livid.

 

Every evening for weeks I had to refit all the insulation/drag it out, fit the two halves back together and tuck it in. Then had to check their work and drag the insulation up onto the scaffolding to force them to fit it properly.

 

Man, that's horrendous.

 

Not quite as bad, but we had rockwool for sound insulation just thrown up between the joists prior to plasterboarding the ceilings, rather than pushed into place to close all the gaps.

[SteamyTea]

I wonder how much of the poor workmanship is caused by the mismatch of building materials.

Building have morphed from caves with a fire in them, via huts, to timber, steel, stone and brick building.

In later years we have added heating systems, separate insulation, decentralised and centralised heating systems, better windows and doors, ventilation systems etc.

 

Maybe because there is not any agreed standards for build standards and performance (even the Building Regs are open to a lot of interpretation) we have problems.

When my neighbour was having his very expensive, though not particularily good, windows fitted, I started chatting to the fitter about air tightness tapes and why they were nto using any, "because it makes a house stuffy, I can't sleep in a room without the window open".

"How about fitting proper ventilation" I suggested.  I got a blank look.

Maybe if he stopped wanking in bed he would sleep better.

[Roger440]

Its why, for almost everything, i just do it myself now. 

 

Its easier and less stessfull

 

Cant even be worrying about building control anymore. That hopeless too. I can do it right and have no cert, or i can have it done wrong, but get a cert.

 

 Lots to do at the new place. Will continue on a DIY basis on almost everything.

 

The lack of pride in your work is the real issue. No one cares anymore. A sad state of affairs.

[Roger440]

20 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

I wonder how much of the poor workmanship is caused by the mismatch of building materials.

Building have morphed from caves with a fire in them, via huts, to timber, steel, stone and brick building.

In later years we have added heating systems, separate insulation, decentralised and centralised heating systems, better windows and doors, ventilation systems etc.

 

Maybe because there is not any agreed standards for build standards and performance (even the Building Regs are open to a lot of interpretation) we have problems.

When my neighbour was having his very expensive, though not particularily good, windows fitted, I started chatting to the fitter about air tightness tapes and why they were nto using any, "because it makes a house stuffy, I can't sleep in a room without the window open".

"How about fitting proper ventilation" I suggested.  I got a blank look.

Maybe if he stopped wanking in bed he would sleep better.

 

The level of "tech" involved in modern building methods left most builders behind a long time ago

 

Espically the concept of insulation. That appears to be a complete mystery.