First self build project!

[Gaz Bancroft]

Hi, 

 

I own the land, I have planning consent for a house, I have the finance in place, and I am currently working with an architect to finalise our building regs application. Next task is to build the thing! 

 

The house will be a three bedroom, detached, traditional build. Going electric only with ASHP and solar panels on the south elevation of the roof. Have tried to keep the design simple whilst remaining aesthetically pleasing, but essentially it's a rectangle box with two bay windows and a porch on the front!  

 

I am now considering whether to appoint a builder to project manage the whole thing or whether to attempt to project manage myself! Main reason for considering undertaking myself is the financial saving to be honest, I am a complete novice so the learning experience would also be great! 

 

Anyone have any experience of project managing their own build? Any words of wisdom or don't do it advice welcome! I will be working full-time but will be able to visit site once per day and have a retired dad that can help but who also does not have construction experience. 

 

If I do take this on I can see me becoming a regular reader and contributor on this forum as I am already losing hours at a time reading existing threads but learning a heck of a lot! 

 

Gaz 

23-131b (6).pdf

[joe90]

Hi and welcome, I project managed my build but was a self employed builder (small time) before, now retired, . I still got a good main contractor who built the walls, roof, plaster etc, and I did the rest. I loved it but was lucky I had previous knowledge and my builder was excellent. It’s very satisfying (if it goes well). I think project managing can be hard if you still have a day job, but not impossible. 

[Redoctober]

Hi @Gaz Bancroft Your project appears to have many simiarities to ours, " a rectangle box" etc and like you, I was a complete novice and had no construction experience. In fact your situation does remind me of my self build project in many ways, albeit we completed 5 years ago. If you haven't done so already, take a look at my blog - it may give you the confidence to manage the project yourself. I'm sure you will be able to to be fair. Good luck.

 

 

[Crofter]

We've got a wide range of different build types on the site.

I was at one end of the scale- I did everything, apart from a few skilled jobs (plastering, wiring).

I think it depends how much your time is worth, and how much of a hurry you are in to build.

[ToughButterCup]

2 hours ago, Gaz Bancroft said:

...

I am now considering whether to appoint a builder to project manage ... or whether to attempt to project manage myself! Main reason for considering undertaking myself is the financial saving to be honest, I am a complete novice so the learning experience would also be great! 

...I will be working full-time but will be able to visit site once per day

 

One of the key issues on a build is the hidden local networks which operate: often in the pub, the cricket pitch, the building sites and elsewhere.

The networks started at school : friends grew up together, chose different trades and over a few years came to know and trust -or mistrust - their school mates practical work on sites and jobs in the locality. They talk to one another, dig one-another out of holes, help out with job xyz. But they form firm bonds.

 

Those bonds are - unless you're in the network - hidden. A good PM will know those networks well. A PM will know who and who not to employ, who hates whom and why - because  they all 'go-back-a-long-way' together.

 

And how on earth can you choose a good PM - as opposed to someone you pick from Yellow Pages?

 

One answer to that question is that you won't be able to get a good local one for a few months or maybe a year or so. You might just get an excellent builder who's large enough to be able to call on lots of mates (likely to be old school friends or mates of old school friends) 

 

See where this is going ...........? 

To answer the question, you now need to network like mad - with the emphasis on work. Got the time? 

[Adrian Walker]

Just taken a look at your plans and I would, even at this late stage, consider how you could improve the design, especially in respect of the insulation and airtightness.

[FuerteStu]

You've got a lot of glass in that design, which makes me think you must have some amazing views.. If not. I'd scale back the glass. 

 

You'd save a lot in the build, and even more long term in heat loss. 

 

Personally, I'd be tempted to build bigger. A 1.7 bathroom isn't that big, you could easily find things get messed up in tolerances, boarding and tiling and you can't fit a bath in there. 

 

In terms of project managing with no experience, it will end up costing you a lot more in time and stress. You won't know the terminology of most trades and they will take advantage of you because of this. 

 

I'm not saying get someone else to do it, but just be aware that it will happen and you have to factor in that people will lie to make things easier for themselves if they think they can get away with it. 

 

 

[Redoctober]

43 minutes ago, FuerteStu said:

In terms of project managing with no experience, it will end up costing you a lot more in time and stress. You won't know the terminology of most trades and they will take advantage of you because of this. 

I'm not saying get someone else to do it, but just be aware that it will happen and you have to factor in that people will lie to make things easier for themselves if they think they can get away with it. 

 

Perhaps the stark reality of some peoples experences but not all I would say. I think this highlights what @ToughButterCup was saying above - network - get to know your builder / tradesman etc. We are still "friends" with our tradesman and builder and I'm sure others have a similar relationship. 

[FuerteStu]

35 minutes ago, Redoctober said:

 

Perhaps the stark reality of some peoples experences but not all I would say. I think this highlights what @ToughButterCup was saying above - network - get to know your builder / tradesman etc. We are still "friends" with our tradesman and builder and I'm sure others have a similar relationship. 

I've worked as a tradesman for 25 years, first as carpenter then Electrician. 

 

I've seen, at an ever increasing rate, a higher number of disreputable tradesman than good ones. 

[ToughButterCup]

Just now, FuerteStu said:

...

I've seen, at an ever increasing rate, a higher number of disreputable tradesman than good ones. 

 

In a nutshell: the argument for finding an excellent - not necessarily expensive - PM. 

Key 'interview '  question for a potential manager :

• Have you any suggestions about local builders and trades folk that you would like to make?
• Who's a reputable plumber round here? How long have you known him / her?
• Do you know of any local  chippie / brickie partnerships (team) 
• Do you know any concrete dispatchers? : ( listen to the answer) what's the chance of getting a part load from that company? - and where do they do their slump tests?
• What are the local window fitters like here: do they deal with imported window companies like Velfac of Gaulhofer ?
• How much is concrete a cube yard from company [...x...] ?  Ring to check.
• How long has [ company x ] been trading ? 
• Which is the best pub for local tradies  ( Local to us its The Patten Arms) Go and waste time there.

 

Then triangulate the answers.

[Kelvin]

I’ve found the PMing quite hard at times and I’m an experienced PM. It’s not to be under estimated how hard it can be managing all the individual trades especially when you run into problems. What’s made it hard is I know nothing about building so it’s been a baptism of fire. 

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, Kelvin said:

I’ve found the PMing quite hard at times and I’m an experienced PM. What’s made it hard is I know nothing about building so it’s been a baptism of fire. 

I'd suggest that the other challenge is integrating suppliers who are not contractually connected, then working outdoors, in all weather.

 

It's not like a factory or an office 

 

But I reckon you'd be even better at it next time.

[Mr Punter]

Have a chat to your designer and see if he can give you any recommendations, either main contractor or trades.  He should know a fair few local firms who could do this.

[Kelvin]

The other lesson I’ve learnt is use products that the local to you trades are familiar with so you have a choice of installers. I’ve had a really hard time with the Alwitra flat roof membrane. Had I gone with Sarnafil I’d have had a choice of installers in the area whereas nobody up here had heard of it let alone fitted it. 

[Canski]

3 hours ago, FuerteStu said:

I've worked as a tradesman for 25 years, first as carpenter then Electrician. 

 

I've seen, at an ever increasing rate, a higher number of disreputable tradesman than good ones. 

I couldn’t agree more. I tend to try to use people as old as me. 😜I’ve got the best scaffolders I have ever worked with on my site and I have never used them before. I had a gut feeling when I met him that he was going to give a great service. From the start he returned calls, helped with suggestions and ideas and has not let me down once. This came from meeting him on site rather than email conversations and text messages. 

[SteamyTea]

Welcome Gaz

 

Can't help you much at all in making a decision about PMing or no.

But regarding the trade networks, just last night I fell asleep listening to this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001r1fy

It is about networks and how the are interconnected and react, well worth 15 minutes of your time.

Seems that in some projects/companies, those at the top have no interaction with those at the bottom.

I am was a dreadful manager as I assume everyone lese has the same vision, but they don't.  Just yesterday I explained something to a work colleague, why it had to be done, how it needed to be done and how long it would take, then watched them, while I am still there, totally ignore the instructions and carry on doing what they always did.

(expletive deleted)ing twats, the term efficiency often gets confused with rushing.

 

[JohnMo]

On 03/11/2023 at 08:14, Gaz Bancroft said:

am now considering whether to appoint a builder to project manage the whole thing or whether to attempt to project manage myself! Main reason for considering undertaking myself is the financial saving to be honest, I am a complete novice so the learning experience would also be great! 

 

Anyone have any experience of project managing their own build? Any words of wisdom or don't do it advice welcome!

I also was just a DIY er, but after getting some stupid quotes, decided I would do the PM role and lots of other roles.

 

First have a step by step plan. Dates not that important but the logical build sequence is.

 

Mine a little different from some people

 

Foundation, floor installation, UFH pipes, concrete floor, all done prior to walls getting in the way.

 

While that was happening I got all services to site, including a water borehole.

 

Build walls etc...

 

You have to be on site, at any time you have trades there. Coming and going just doesn't work. Doing it and a normal day job a big no.

 

You have to be able to make  decisions and not dither about. These will range from that dimension doesn't work, what do you want me to do, to putting a light there looks stupid, are you certain it goes there?  Scaffold will likely need to moved about for different trades, so you need to on top of that etc.

 

You have to be at least two steps ahead of everyone else on site, they are there to one scope.

 

Ask the trades on site for recommendations for the next trade you need. They will have people they like to work with, and more importantly don't want to work with.

 

Be prepared to get your hand dirty, fill skips, tell people that's how I want it done. If you are going airtight you have to reinforce the message to every trade most days.

 

Try to get fixed prices for scopes, way less stressful, nothing worse than seeing someone in the van on their phone, when you are paying by the hour - on a fixed price, that's someone else's issue.

[Crofter]

1 hour ago, JohnMo said:

If you are going airtight you have to reinforce the message to every trade most days.

Oh yes I totally relate to that.

I had to run around after my sparky taping up the holes he'd cut in the membrane.

He actually said he didn't like the idea of having a membrane (between the insulation and the plasterboard) 'because it would sweat'.

And he wasn't exactly new to the trade. Good sparky, but clueless about other aspects of building.

 

Don't assume that people know anything outside of their own specialism. Anything remotely modern or unusual will likely be treated with suspicion.

[JohnMo]

25 minutes ago, Crofter said:

He actually said he didn't like the idea of having a membrane (between the insulation and the plasterboard) 'because it would sweat'.

Had a lot of similar comments, with that and mould related comments, and wasting your money insulating the slab, because heat rises - it doesn't go down.

[Kelvin]

Yes I was surprised at how little any of the trades understood airtightness and how it works. I had an audience of the joiner, plumber, and electrician watch me fit a pro clima duct seal. They’d never seen anyone ever seal up a wall penetration before. It seemed odd to me to have to explain how a lot of little holes add up to one quite big hole so when I said it would be the equivalent of not fitting a window or a door they finally got it. 

[saveasteading]

23 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

finally got it. 

Or at least smiled politely.

 

Our joiner was intelligent, youngish, college trained and had clearly put up plenty of frames.

We gave up on him sealing the vapour barrier properly, and it became an after hours diy.

 

How many new builds, probably on new estates, are done badly?

[Canski]

5 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

  Just yesterday I explained something to a work colleague, why it had to be done, how it needed to be done and how long it would take, then watched them, while I am still there, totally ignore the instructions and carry on doing what they always did.

 

Welcome to my world

 

[Gaz Bancroft]

Thank you all for the welcome and words of wisdom. 

 

Lots for me to consider. I'm going to meet with a few builders and get some advice and ball park costs for them PM'ing and then I can make a more informed decision. 

 

On 03/11/2023 at 03:18, Redoctober said:

If you haven't done so already, take a look at my blog

This is my bedtime reading tonight sorted! 

 

On 03/11/2023 at 04:17, ToughButterCup said:

To answer the question, you now need to network like mad - with the emphasis on work. Got the time?

Great advice. There are two houses being built down the road and a couple of others have also been built recently so I was intending to get speaking with the folks who have recently built locally and start getting some recommendations for trades etc. 

 

On 03/11/2023 at 05:57, FuerteStu said:

You'd save a lot in the build, and even more long term in heat loss. 

 

Personally, I'd be tempted to build bigger. A 1.7 bathroom isn't that big, you could easily find things get messed up in tolerances, boarding and tiling and you can't fit a bath in there.

Building bigger isn't an option sadly, planning was refused previously so this is the best I can get as the plot is quite tight. Open fields (for now) to the north so it would be nice to take advantage of the views but acknowledge that this does come at a cost re heat loss 

 

23 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

Key 'interview '  question for a potential manager

I've met one builder so far who would do a great job as I know other houses he has build locally, but his ball park figure for a cost was disappointingly high which has informed my thought process on maybe taking on more myself. I am going to meet another couple of builders too before making any decision so these questions are useful thank you. 

 

5 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

It is about networks and how the are interconnected and react, well worth 15 minutes of your time.

I'll take a listen, thank you 

 

5 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Be prepared to get your hand dirty, fill skips, tell people that's how I want it done. If you are going airtight you have to reinforce the message to every trade most days.

All noted, thanks for the advice 

[Pocster]

2 hours ago, Kelvin said:

It seemed odd to me to have to explain how a lot of little holes add up to one quite big hole

Amen to that .

[saveasteading]

A main contractor will spend a lot of time organising. Also he is taking risk off you, more or less according to what you agree.

If they supply all the plant and materials then they are at more risk and have cash flow to contend with.

30% oncost may be about right, and may be good value.