Claim against architectural designer

[Lofty718]

I instructed a architectural designer to do building regulation drawings only, The drawings he drew don't meet the regs but were mistakenly passed by BC and built

 

Do you think I have a claim against the architect for negligence?

[Temp]

I would hope they have insurance..

 

https://designfor-me.com/project-types/self-build/does-my-architect-need-to-have-insurance/

 

Quote

Even for a small house extension or renovation, it’s hugely important that your architect (or other architectural designer) holds professional indemnity insurance. If anything goes wrong with your project as a result of their advice or work, it will be much more straightforward to claim back any financial loss you may incur as a result.

 

But it does depends on exactly what they were tasked with doing. For example the drawings for a loft conversion might meet Buildings Regulations but the project as a whole will only meet Building Regs if the design of the fire escape route, including the ground floor layout and doors also comply.

[ToughButterCup]

1 hour ago, Lofty718 said:

...

Do you think I have a claim against the architect for negligence?

 

You appear to have a claim against the Architectural Designer - not an architect.

Do you have written evidence of the instruction to produce Building Regulations Compliant drawings? If so then yes, on the face of it, you may well have a claim.

What's the point of the claim? Have you suffered a material loss? I ask because you - yet - haven't mentioned how you have suffered a loss because of the non-compliant drawings. The construction has been signed off. How are you suffering a loss? 

 

Please bear in mind we are not legal experts here. Just hard-bitten, interested, supportive amateurs.  To verify whether you may have a claim please consult a legal professional. 

[Declan52]

As above while we all give advise to help where we can this is certainly a matter where you will have to seek professional legal help. 

[Jilly]

Maybe post the whole story, as there might be another way to 

solve the issue? There are lots of people on here with differing experiences and views who might be able to help as I’m guessing you are in a stressful situation. 

[Lofty718]

Designer drew up a full plans BC application for a large renovation/extension ,  drawings inspected and passed by BC, come the day of the final sign off they said we needed to have a door or mist system between main staircase and kitchen (open plan house with loft conversion)

 

Adding a door or imist system is expensive and distruptive after all the work has been finished. If I had known initially it would of been easy.

 

 

Any thoughts appreciated

 

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by Lofty718

[Temp]

53 minutes ago, Lofty718 said:

they said we needed to have a door or mist system between main staircase and kitchen (open plan house with loft conversion)

 

Yes that's a fairly well know gotcha. It's what I was referring to above. A loft conversions makes the house three storey and the rules on escape routes from fire are different. Typically there has to be a 30min protected escape route from the loft to an outside door on the ground floor.

 

In most houses it just means ensuring that all doors and walls that seperate the living room and kitchen from the stairs and hallway should be 30min fire rated. In a open plan house there might be no doors or walls so no barrier between a fire in the kitchen and the escape route from the loft to the front door. Even a wall of glass blocks or doors with a lot of glass in can cause an issue.

 

Was it already open plan or was that something the designer introduced?

 

 

[Lofty718]

It was already open plan, not introducted by the designer but he had planning drawings and structural drawings that clearly showed it was open plan for the very beginning.

[ToughButterCup]

1 hour ago, Lofty718 said:

...

come the day of the final sign off they said we needed to

...

 

Who is 'they' ?

[Temp]

22 minutes ago, Lofty718 said:

It was already open plan, not introducted by the designer but he had planning drawings and structural drawings that clearly showed it was open plan for the very beginning.

 

Was the loft being used as a habitable room like a bedroom or just storage space when you bought it?

 

If it was as bedroom then house didn't comply when you got it. Ideally he would have spotted the problem but he hasn't made compliance worse.

 

If it was sold as a storage space or similar and was converted to a bedroom as part of the renovation he should have made you aware of the issue and addressed it as part of the project. 

 

If its still only storage space you could try arguing with the BCO that it's not a habitable room so the escape route doesn't need enhancing, but if it's all neatly plasterboarded and decorated they won't agree. 

 

 Overall if he has any liability I don't think it would be for the full cost, just extra cost of doing the work now rather than earlier. 

 

I can't remember if sprinklers are an alternative officially mentioned in the regs, or if this is something the BCO is allowing as a concession. If its the latter you need to keep the BCO on your side.

[ETC]

8 hours ago, Lofty718 said:

I instructed a architectural designer to do building regulation drawings only, The drawings he drew don't meet the regs but were mistakenly passed by BC and built

 

Do you think I have a claim against the architect for negligence?

How on earth did this happen? - can you post a bit more detail. 

[BenP]

Perhaps you had conditional approval on the plan check?

 

It's quite normal for Building Control to approve plans but lump you with a load of conditions. Usually it means construction can begin and items will need to be observed on site or more detail provided by you / your designer. 

[jfb]

I don’t quite know the layout but isn’t it going to be easiest to put a door in and be done with it?

 

not what you want to hear I suspect but going to be easier than a mist system and how much extra will it really cost?

[Lofty718]

18 hours ago, Temp said:

 

Was the loft being used as a habitable room like a bedroom or just storage space when you bought it?

 

If it was as bedroom then house didn't comply when you got it. Ideally he would have spotted the problem but he hasn't made compliance worse.

 

If it was sold as a storage space or similar and was converted to a bedroom as part of the renovation he should have made you aware of the issue and addressed it as part of the project. 

 

If its still only storage space you could try arguing with the BCO that it's not a habitable room so the escape route doesn't need enhancing, but if it's all neatly plasterboarded and decorated they won't agree. 

 

 Overall if he has any liability I don't think it would be for the full cost, just extra cost of doing the work now rather than earlier. 

 

I can't remember if sprinklers are an alternative officially mentioned in the regs, or if this is something the BCO is allowing as a concession. If its the latter you need to keep the BCO on your side.

The house had an old (bc approved) loft conversion that was rebuilt to better standards. Sprinklers are a consideration but also expensive and distruptive

16 hours ago, ETC said:

How on earth did this happen? - can you post a bit more detail. 

I paid for a full plans application, Building Control made a mistake when approving it. I was not aware of those fire regs myself unfortunately and we proceeded to build to the approved drawings

5 hours ago, BenP said:

Perhaps you had conditional approval on the plan check?

 

It's quite normal for Building Control to approve plans but lump you with a load of conditions. Usually it means construction can begin and items will need to be observed on site or more detail provided by you / your designer. 

There was no conditional approval it was full approval and BC admitted they made a mistake. But they generally don't have much liability for their oversights.

2 hours ago, jfb said:

I don’t quite know the layout but isn’t it going to be easiest to put a door in and be done with it?

 

not what you want to hear I suspect but going to be easier than a mist system and how much extra will it really cost?

A door can be fitted but it would be a bit of a hodge podge and be too close to our kitchen island, the house was renovated for someone with special needs so open plan was needed.

 

 

 

So my evaluation of the situation is that plan drawer made a mistake with drawings that didn't meet regulations, then BC made a mistake by approving this drawing. Can't blame anyone on the construction end of things because we just built to the approved drawings.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Lofty718

[Russdl]

You can try and add the door in the least disruptive (temporary) way, get signed off and then remove the door and flog it. 
 

We had similar requirements as our loft space is open to below with a fixed staircase. We have a pocket door to the kitchen which had to be fire rated. It is, and it is still there but it is almost never closed so may as well not be there.
 

We do have a good smoke/fire alarm system fitted. 

[ETC]

Questions.
Did you ask the person who drew your plans to have the kitchen open to the hall?
Did you review the drawings before they were submitted to Building Control?

[Lofty718]

41 minutes ago, ETC said:

Questions.
Did you ask the person who drew your plans to have the kitchen open to the hall?
Did you review the drawings before they were submitted to Building Control?

I provided them with structural and planning drawings that clearly showed the open plan layout and this was the basis of the building regulations drawings. I did not specifically tell them to make the layout open plan directly, just provided the drawings.

 

 

I did review the drawings thoroughly with all notes. I just was not aware of this regulation until the inspector had mentioned it at the end when I requested final inspection.

 

This was all what was wrote regarding fire regulations.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Lofty718

[ETC]

My personal opinion is this:

 

If you provided the person who drew up your BC drawings with drawings that didn’t show a door between the kitchen and the hallway containing a staircase then I suspect you need to accept some responsibility for the error.

 

However the person who drew up your plans should - in my opinion - have known that Building Control would have asked for something to mitigate the fact that there was no physical separation between the kitchen and a hall containing a staircase.

 

Building Control should - again in my opinion - have noticed that there was no physical separation between the kitchen and the hall and staircase and should have asked your agent to provide separation or some other means of fire protection before the drawings were stamped.

 

The cheapest thing you can do is to put in a door between the kitchen and the hall/staircase. The only people who will benefit from court action will be any legal representation appointed.

 

This is my own private opinion but I suspect you are flogging a dead horse thinking about legal action.

 

Whatever happens get proper legal advice rather than taking advice from random strangers on the internet.

[ToughButterCup]

It feels as if two people in the decision chain made one or more mistakes each.  It happens.

 

Fit a door.

[Temp]

I think if there is water nearby I'd go for the mist sprinklers. Think they can use plastic pipe so perhaps not too hard to pull through the ceiling?

 

https://mistek.co.uk

Edited August 21, 2023 by Temp

[saveasteading]

People make mistakes. Sometimes ig is interpretation rather than errors. They anc you  should try to resolve it in the most efficient way. You can't necessarily claim.

If they had riginally designed it with the door and mist system then you would have paid for it at the time.  If you have any claim it is only for the difference by doing it now.

[JohnMo]

Simple stud wall a couple of sheets of plasterboard, taped joints and door, build the wall with 3x2 timber, top and bottom plate verticals at 600mm centres. A few hundred pounds.

 

Take someone to court, year to two years, before your day in court (if your lucky), if you win, you may get costs plus a small nominal fee, if you loose, several thousand to yours and his solicitor. 

 

Get it sorted move on with your life. Get house signed off, do what you will with the door/wall.

 

Irospective of the person drawing and detailing having missed something, the checker (you, if you were officially reviewing the documents, you state you reviewed) and council should have captured the missing details. 

 

I see three parties at fault, the drafting person, the reviewer and council, so who do you take to court?

17 hours ago, Lofty718 said:

 

I did review the drawings thoroughly with all notes. I just was not aware

20 hours ago, Lofty718 said:

On 20/08/2023 at 08:54, BenP said:

 

There was no conditional approval it was full approval and BC admitted they made a mistake.

 

 

 

[Blooda]

54 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Simple stud wall a couple of sheets of plasterboard, taped joints and door, build the wall with 3x2 timber, top and bottom plate verticals at 600mm centres. A few hundred pounds.

 

Take someone to court, year to two years, before your day in court (if your lucky), if you win, you may get costs plus a small nominal fee, if you loose, several thousand to yours and his solicitor. 

 

Get it sorted move on with your life. Get house signed off, do what you will with the door/wall.

 

Irospective of the person drawing and detailing having missed something, the checker (you, if you were officially reviewing the documents, you state you reviewed) and council should have captured the missing details. 

 

I see three parties at fault, the drafting person, the reviewer and council, so who do you take to court?

 

 

 

 

 

Even if you win, I suspect the Architect will just draw a door on the plans, submit to BC and they would approve, at little or no cost to them.  Then it's still up to you to to sort out.  Meanwhile the legal bods will happily counting their money. 💰

 

 

[torre]

Are you sure this is the only non-compliance? I expect all the other doors needed upgrading to fire doors -if that's been done then it's a bit surprising that none of your designer, BC or builder (or you) picked up on the lack of any door or fire protection to the open plan area.

 

Agree with others that regardless of blame, you need to focus on the most pragmatic solution - very likely a door downstairs. I don't believe a mist system alone would be complaint, there's a pretty good guide available from Building Control Alliance  (see option 2b) that suggests you'd also need a door on the first floor protecting the stairway.

 

You could then ask your designer to cover, say, half the cost of reasonable remedial work like adding a fire door (they're not the only ones to blame here). Small claims is your only cost effective avenue if not; it's not worth legal fees and any liability will be small, not a payout for a fire suppression system.

[Carrerahill]

On 19/08/2023 at 17:24, Lofty718 said:

Designer drew up a full plans BC application for a large renovation/extension ,  drawings inspected and passed by BC, come the day of the final sign off they said we needed to have a door or mist system between main staircase and kitchen (open plan house with loft conversion)

 

Adding a door or imist system is expensive and disruptive after all the work has been finished. If I had known initially it would of been easy.

 

 

Any thoughts appreciated

 

 

I work in the construction industry, on the design side, between all the disciplines that work together to put a building together, things are forgotten or overlooked, I really don't think this is an issue, it is a variation for you, OK maybe there should have been something included originally, but 2 people missed it, the AT and the BCO, I know BC will accept no liability as they are not "checking" drawings, but they still didn't flag the requirement at the time. 

 

So, as for a claim, it is a no from me.