Pocster Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 My sparky recently became mcs accredited for solar etc. He’s no cowboy ; used him countless times . Told me he’s been to a site ( new builds ) where sometimes just 2 pv panels are put on a roof just so a sap tick box gets done . What’s more worrying is sometimes on finished builds the panels aren’t even wired up . It’s an absolute joke / shambles . But of course it looks great as “ PV was installed “ 😞 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joth Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 It's a joke isn't it. I think even I'm becoming jaded by it all. Doesn't help I noticed half my panels haven't been working since installing the SE battery. If I don't spot this stuff, how is Joe average going to keep on top of it? Turns out half the optimizes had lost pairing. A bunch of reboots and several hours with support and it's working again. They tried to blame wiring error, but after they fiddled with some anonymous settings in the inverter and I did several more system resets, all optimsers are back. /Shrug And then there's tickbox heat pumps installed so poorly they are worse than resistive heating. It's going to take a generation (of tech maturity and users) before any of this becomes vaguely mainstream reliable. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 Yes "fit just enough PV" is a common mass market builders trick to gain a couple of extra SAP points to scrape through. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 A new build down the road is having 2 panels installed so they pass SAP. Roof is on and has been for quite a while. Next tiles are being removed for hangers to be installed and wires run. Just daft. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 8 minutes ago, joth said: It's going to take a generation (of tech maturity and users) before any of this becomes vaguely mainstream reliable. We will have to wait till the current working generation of Architects have all died. I was chatting to a lady in the cafe today, she runs a writing and publishing service. I somehow managed to mention that I have an interest in energy and usage. She said, 'me too, many of my clients write about energy' Me 'Oh yes, that is interesting' Her, ' yes, life energy' Me 'not really real energy is it, science has defined energy very accurately' Her 'yes, I know about quantum energy' Me, well I just looked at her bare legs and tried to take a peek down her blouse. FFS 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted May 30, 2023 Author Share Posted May 30, 2023 Quantum mechanics is being touted as an explanation to consciousness. So you’d better be careful - she knew what you were thinking btw “ life energy “ = 🍷 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted May 30, 2023 Author Share Posted May 30, 2023 (edited) 23 minutes ago, joth said: It's going to take a generation (of tech maturity and users) before any of this becomes vaguely mainstream reliable. Hmmm . As an ex software engineer I used to think this . People will ‘learn’ more about technology as it’s used more in their life . In my experience it’s the complete opposite. If they can’t turn it off/on to ‘fix’ the issue or click an icon it’s beyond them . Number of people who can’t set the basics for their router . Can’t work out if their PV is generating or how much . Change a battery in a device ( ffs ! ) . Humans are getting more stupid . Edited May 30, 2023 by pocster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 22 minutes ago, pocster said: Hmmm . As an ex software engineer I used to think this . People will ‘learn’ more about technology as it’s used more in their life . In my experience it’s the complete opposite. If they can’t turn it off/on to ‘fix’ the issue or click an icon it’s beyond them . Number of people who can’t set the basics for their router . Can’t work out if their PV is generating or how much . Change a battery in a device ( ffs ! ) . Humans are getting more stupid . the education system since 1990 has ruined the kids. They are at school all day every day for years and years and when they leave cant do elementary maths or write a letter. It's beyond sad. Need to bring back grammar schools, reduce uni intakes to the real professions, probably 15% of what there is now and mainstream vocational training at 13+ No reason the non doctors, lawyers, dentists etc cant have learned the first 3 years of a trade by the time they are 16 instead of leaving school thinking they can be a social media millionaire when in reality they are already on the scrap heap and just don't know it. most politicians are the same as teachers, went to school, then uni, then into politics/education. No clue whatsoever about the real world. It's unfixable now the left have infected all areas of life with alphabet gender bollox, full time dole etc etc , there will be social unrest at some point and a reset. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joth Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 36 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: We will have to wait till the current working generation of Architects have all died. Yes. Well. We need to wait until architecture syllabus contains something vaguely forward looking in terms of designing for low energy usage, wait until a new crop is being trained, and then start waiting for the current ones to all die. Honestly. My PH designer did her architecture viva just after our build finished. The panel of so called experts knew exactly nothing about retrofit . She was teaching them throughout this so called viva. Suited her perfectly much better to discuss that than the finer details of collateral warranties and contract novation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrerahill Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, pocster said: My sparky recently became mcs accredited for solar etc. He’s no cowboy ; used him countless times . Told me he’s been to a site ( new builds ) where sometimes just 2 pv panels are put on a roof just so a sap tick box gets done . What’s more worrying is sometimes on finished builds the panels aren’t even wired up . It’s an absolute joke / shambles . But of course it looks great as “ PV was installed “ 😞 Yes, I know of a large housing development just outside Glasgow where this is the case. Where required, to comply, you must put X m² on the roof, I keep asking why is it done in m² - it should be measured in kW for crying out loud, stupid unit for PV, anyway, so you can go and get the cheapest, lowest efficiency panels and install them and still comply. At work the mechanical engineers will give me the SAP calc results where PV is needed and I based the PV intent drawings on the required m² (rounded up to whole panel obviously), I then take that area and find the most efficient and best peak generation panel I can find at the time then convert it into kW Peak - that is the figure I put on the intent drawing and electrical specification in the tender package, this means the contractor only knows the peak generation figure and will stick to it. I also ensure that the intent drawing (for roof PV arrays) and other associated drawings show inverter positions, isolators and connections to the main switch board to ensure that the design is complete and that it is not just panels I want them to install. The use of a note along the lines of "Contractor to complete design, supply & install fully commissioned operational PV generation system of x kW peak" also helps to ensure that we want a working system and that is what they must tender for. It is usually the big house builders who skip on the inverters and just install the panels as they are doing it all themselves. Edited May 30, 2023 by Carrerahill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted May 30, 2023 Author Share Posted May 30, 2023 19 minutes ago, Carrerahill said: It is usually the big house builders who skip on the inverters and just install the panels as they are doing it all themselves. It would seem so. Also with the elusive "sound test" . Told which 5 houses are being checked ( so make them comply ) then 'shall we say' be less inclined with the others..... It is a mockery. Thats the thing with self build. Who is going to f up their own foundations. Have minimal PV and not connect them etc. etc. etc. etc. - I suspect the number of self builds that cut these type of corners is very little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 13 minutes ago, Carrerahill said: should be measured in kW for crying out loud, Planning officers are not especially technical. They may welcome advice such as yours and change these rules. For example, I have explained to planners why their drainage hierarchy and strategy was flawed. A shocked silence was followed by realisation that this was suddenly obvious, then an invitation to present my own strategy with planning applications, with explanations.....and they always accepted these. I doubt that they alterered their guidance, but that would require the cost of consultants....the ones I was saying were wrong. But try, or tell them that you are substututing Am2 at B output, with Cm2 x D output. They will be happy. Seriously, they often welome sensible technical advice. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brickie Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 (edited) 17 hours ago, Dave Jones said: 17 hours ago, Dave Jones said: the education system since 1990 has ruined the kids. They are at school all day every day for years and years and when they leave cant do elementary maths or write a letter. It's beyond sad. Need to bring back grammar schools, reduce uni intakes to the real professions, probably 15% of what there is now and mainstream vocational training at 13+ No reason the non doctors, lawyers, dentists etc cant have learned the first 3 years of a trade by the time they are 16 instead of leaving school thinking they can be a social media millionaire when in reality they are already on the scrap heap and just don't know it. most politicians are the same as teachers, went to school, then uni, then into politics/education. No clue whatsoever about the real world. It's unfixable now the left have infected all areas of life with alphabet gender bollox, full time dole etc etc , there will be social unrest at some point and a reset. Yeah,let’s get the kids primed for a lifetime of servitude before they’ve had a chance to start questioning things. Far better for Society as a whole to have an educated population who aren’t as susceptible to the triggers fed their way by the Mail et al. And how many innovations in our history have come about by people having a broad knowledge of things outside their particular discipline? Grammar schools in Sevenoaks are basing their intake exam on questions not yet covered by the pupils’ curriculum,so that tutors are required to stand a chance of gaining entry. So much for social mobility there. The ‘alphabet gender bollox’ is basically telling kids it’s not okay to be a dick to someone cos they’re different to you-how terrible for them. When my kids see the trans person on the till in a shop,it doesn’t confuse them,they just accept it. It’s me & my generation who do a double take because we weren’t brought up with this as a thing. Regarding the PV,doesn’t surprise me in slightest. I occasionally work on New Build sites (I did almost exclusively as an improved,& consequently had to unlearn many things) & the phrases ‘if it looks right,it is right’,’looks ok from my house’ & ‘Stevie Wonder would like to see it’ are commonplace. Hard to find a group of people less inclined to innovation & more resistant to change than the entire mass house building sector. Edited May 31, 2023 by Brickie Double quote box 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 1 hour ago, Brickie said: Hard to find a group of people less inclined to innovation My favourite response to an efficiency suggestion to a subcontractor was ," if it was a good idea I would have thought of it years ago". It is now a standard method. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenki Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 Slightly off topic, but try building in out of the way Highlands. Unless it's a block,sand, cement they have no clue/ inrerest. I mentioned to the BCO, you(building control regulations) don't really care about leaky houses, he was quite upset, and told me they were very keen on It, it must pass 5ACH!, I said, yep, like I said, you don't really care about it. But at least Scotland are tightening U values, and are ahead of England and Wales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrerahill Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 7 minutes ago, Jenki said: But at least Scotland are tightening U values, and are ahead of England and Wales. As usual, they are trying to be seen to be doing things and have not consulted with the relative design and engineering bodies who design buildings to actually work it all out first and instead just slap out a new, more onerous figure and think they have done a good job. I am all for improvement in these areas, but improvement must be considered carefully and the impact of other aspects of construction taken into account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 51 minutes ago, Carrerahill said: have not consulted with the relative design and engineering bodies That got me looking. It seems that the committee (BRAC) making changes is mostly of representatives of building inspector associations. Not expert in design. Plus 3 persons in total appointed by BRAC for England and BRAC for Wales, after consultation with the Secretary of State and Welsh ministers, to represent building users, construction sector clients, participants and/or consumers generally. Then they invite experts from the industry. I once met an ultimate (academic) expert in one aspect of construction and so also one document in the regulations. He was consulted but the opinions were opposed by the representative of a particular industry, and so the regulations were a compromise, wasting millions annually. BUT the green part of the regulations is what matters, and we can argue about the rest. And we self builders can do it right. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Ambrose Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 Can I check, am I in the right place for the grumpy old men meeting? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 7 minutes ago, Alan Ambrose said: Can I check, am I in the right place for the grumpy old men meeting? Yep. Pull up a chair: here's a cup of tea. Cake? There's a copy of The Spectator over there, and there's a copy of the Daily Mail in the bog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted May 31, 2023 Author Share Posted May 31, 2023 30 minutes ago, Alan Ambrose said: Can I check, am I in the right place for the grumpy old men meeting? I started this thread ! So NO grumpy old men ! . Young virile girlies yes …. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 2 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said: the grumpy old men meeting? Sorry no. This meeting is striving for higher standards and changing the status quo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brickie Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 10 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said: Can I check, am I in the right place for the grumpy old men meeting? Pull up an irrational rant & make yourself angry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jilly Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 11 hours ago, pocster said: I started this thread ! So NO grumpy old men ! . Young virile girlies yes …. Yes back on track to popular delusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pocster Posted June 1, 2023 Author Share Posted June 1, 2023 1 hour ago, Jilly said: Yes back on track to popular delusions. Indeed . Delusional aspirations of building a house also . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Ambrose Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 OK apologies for the diversion... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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