What are your thoughts on this project estimate?

[eandg]

I'm not sure I'd still be pals with your 'mate' after that quote - absolutely wild stuff. Get some additional quotes and see where you are from there - but don't tell them you paid an architect 50k to draw up some plans for you. 

[Temp]

It's obviously quite a lot more than just a renovation. Looks like the roof structure is being replaced, loft converted and an extension involving possibly big opening in rear wall?

 

I wouldn't go for Cork insulation.  Look at insulated plasterboard or seperate PIR insulation and plasterboard. If you want ASHP you need much more than 40mm insulation.  I would suggest double and triple glazing.  ASHP are effective in well insulated airtight houses but can be a disaster if not correctly sized for the house. To lower risk consider mains gas feeding UFH which leaves open the option of ASHP in the future. 

 

Perhaps also ditch the living roof?

 

[Temp]

One option would be to employ a Quantity Surveyor to review the quote. They prefer bring involved throughout the whole project but that could cost  another 10% like the Architect. I'd see what they charge just to cost up the plans. Don't show him the quote until he has done that. The more detailed plans you can give them the more accurate his estimate. 

 

One option might be to replace the roof with one built using attic trusses but not actually convert the loft. Leave that until later. Might not save much though. Main thing is to get the basic work costed then see if you can afford the loft conversion and extension.

[James Frome]

1 hour ago, Sparrowhawk said:

Have you had an asbestos survey done and do you have contingency for any "little surprises" that turn up during demolition?

Yes - we have had an asbestos survey and had a little piece removed. 

This quote doesn't seem to factor in contingency, which again, made me even more concerned with it

 

[James Frome]

40 minutes ago, eandg said:

I'm not sure I'd still be pals with your 'mate' after that quote - absolutely wild stuff. Get some additional quotes and see where you are from there - but don't tell them you paid an architect 50k to draw up some plans for you. 

Noted - this was an expensive lesson. I was lazy with doing my due diligence here. I think because we got a seemingly good deal on the house itself, I switched off with financial decisions in the next phase (with architects). 

[ETC]

I think your architects fees are way over the top.

[SteamyTea]

12 hours ago, Kelvin said:

Different World

And one I am glad not to be in any more.

 

For that money, ~£600k, I will find you a very nice place down there, and throw in a Tesla Model S for the commute.

[JohnMo]

Other than what has already been said above.

 

You need to actually go though the plan, line by line and make sure you know the cost of what has been specified.  If there is a make and model on the drawing, make sure you are happy paying that cost.  The builder will assume you are and will not deviate to save cost etc.

 

UFH needs lots of insulation or you will pay to heat the ground.

 

£17k for ASHP and cylinder is taking you for a fool.

 

If you stay with gas go X plan, so UFH can fire the boiler at a lower temp than cylinder heating. Specify a heat pump cylinder sized (with 3m2+ coil) for a heat pump with storage temp below 50 deg. Boiler efficiency will be over 100%.

 

Get another quote.

[ToughButterCup]

10 hours ago, James Frome said:

Noted - this was an expensive lesson....

 

Its really encouraging to see you engage with our feedback. 

I think you now have the hardest job of all: building trustworthy working relationships with a set of experienced professionals and tradesfolk. That will take time, and luck.

 

And, reading between the lines - is this a renovation? Or is it a knockdown? Old houses are good at hiding nightmares.

[Jilly]

He’s persuaded himself ‘you can afford it’ and he ‘isn’t ripping you off as the house will still be worth it.’ That’s none of his business and your risk to take. You won’t be living for free during the build, rent can get out of control with build delays. Also, I’d want to build in a profit margin for myself, not the builder. Don’t underestimate how stressful self building is, it would be nice to have something back. This is the tip of the iceberg. 

[Blooda]

As others have said:-

 

The last supply section adds up to £87k inc £17% Overhead and profit. That's £12.5k overhead and profit !!!!!  can you not source and order this [you will be searching and choosing this after all] or at least  - what's the PM doing ? he could be sourcing and ordering this.  500 quid for ordering 60sqm of tiles when there is a PM on site?

 

Wooden flooring - 70.44m²   

Fit - 2222.09  + 2516 = 4738.09 = £67.24 per m² to fit

Supply £4944.88 = £70.20 per m²

Total £137.46 per m².  

 

I know the streets of London are paved with gold but no need to pave your floors. 

 

To put it in perspective one weekend [1 1/2 days] we laid 50m²  -

That was removing skirting boards, [as SHMBO changed her mind from carpets to wooden flooring 🤦‍♂️].  Laying underlay underlay. fitting the floor and refitting skiting boards [inc removing old caulking].

Team was :- Me, my lad, SHMBO and our joiner.

Me and lad prepped & laid and taped underlay & generally made sure the joiner had plenty of boards available, so he could concentrate on joinery type things.  Mrs, generally cracking the whip, providing refreshments, and ensuring we kept a clean ship.

So one Tradesman & 3 skivvies at your rates is £3362, for a day and half work.   

Give us ring when you are ready to fit

 

 

 

[Haylingbilly]

I think the first thing to highlight is that this is not a quote! It is an estimate (or in the words of the author - a budget cost plan), with approximately 50% of the items on the list being PSUM which I take to be provisional sums - ie complete guesses. Many of these you have control over - such as two staircases at £17550 each - you can easily spend this and more or alternatively can do something for a couple of thousand. £11,700 for joinery and wardrobes - again you can easily specify something much cheaper a delay this spend. £3500 for an external door - you can quite happily spend a lot less - all of these were examples of Provisional Sums in the quote and within your remit to significantly impact, stripping out £10ks or even £100k plus out of the estimate.

[James Frome]

17 hours ago, Temp said:

It's obviously quite a lot more than just a renovation. Looks like the roof structure is being replaced, loft converted and an extension involving possibly big opening in rear wall?

 

I wouldn't go for Cork insulation.  Look at insulated plasterboard or seperate PIR insulation and plasterboard. If you want ASHP you need much more than 40mm insulation.  I would suggest double and triple glazing.  ASHP are effective in well insulated airtight houses but can be a disaster if not correctly sized for the house. To lower risk consider mains gas feeding UFH which leaves open the option of ASHP in the future. 

 

Perhaps also ditch the living roof?

 

It sounds like we may need to pivot on the cork insulation. I have noted down your recommendation for the conversation with the architects tomorrow. 

[James Frome]

16 hours ago, ETC said:

I think your architects fees are way over the top.

It was 10% of the total build cost (but this didn't include the manufacturing and construction phase). I think it was therefore at a 15% rate of total build cost which is high-end and in retrospect, foolish. 

[James Frome]

4 hours ago, Andy brown said:

I think the first thing to highlight is that this is not a quote! It is an estimate (or in the words of the author - a budget cost plan), with approximately 50% of the items on the list being PSUM which I take to be provisional sums - ie complete guesses. Many of these you have control over - such as two staircases at £17550 each - you can easily spend this and more or alternatively can do something for a couple of thousand. £11,700 for joinery and wardrobes - again you can easily specify something much cheaper a delay this spend. £3500 for an external door - you can quite happily spend a lot less - all of these were examples of Provisional Sums in the quote and within your remit to significantly impact, stripping out £10ks or even £100k plus out of the estimate.

Hi Andy, 

Yes - this is correct - this is a budget cost plan. There is flexibility in fine tuning the items on the list. I still think we need to get this back £200k to £450k, so there is 10% room for contingency. That is a very tall order!

I think we need to zoom in on the areas of the cost plan that are connected with the company itself: i.e. cost of labour and project management, profits and overheads - what variables here would you advise we should zoom in on in the discussion tomorrow? 

Also, what is a normal, middle-level rate to profit from when ordering supplies for the client? Is 17% reasonable or sky-high? Where does it fit on the curve of normality (in London)? 

[James Frome]

5 hours ago, Jilly said:

He’s persuaded himself ‘you can afford it’ and he ‘isn’t ripping you off as the house will still be worth it.’ That’s none of his business and your risk to take. You won’t be living for free during the build, rent can get out of control with build delays. Also, I’d want to build in a profit margin for myself, not the builder. Don’t underestimate how stressful self building is, it would be nice to have something back. This is the tip of the iceberg. 

I agree about creating contingency. Ideally, we don't want to be in a pressure cooker of stress, as we have a newborn, self-employed jobs etc. As you say, there are plenty of unforeseens with an old house renovation ...

[James Frome]

5 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

 

Its really encouraging to see you engage with our feedback. 

I think you now have the hardest job of all: building trustworthy working relationships with a set of experienced professionals and tradesfolk. That will take time, and luck.

 

And, reading between the lines - is this a renovation? Or is it a knockdown? Old houses are good at hiding nightmares.

It is a renovation. We are knocking down the outrigger and rebuilding that component with a kitchen (designed by the very expensive architects!). 

 

[Mr Punter]

Because yours is a flat it will be less sought after.  I would do it up to mid spec and sell to someone who wants the location at a (relatively) keen price.

 

You have already had your pants pulled down by the architect.  Don't go back for more.

 

I see there is a house nearby https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/131305742#/ and that is asking price and unbroken freehold house.

[Moonshine]

24 minutes ago, James Frome said:

It is a renovation. We are knocking down the outrigger and rebuilding that component with a kitchen (designed by the very expensive architects!). 

 

As stated above there are a lot of provisional sums in this estimate and its probably a factor of unknown specification, which drives the price up.

 

it depends on how good your architectural drawings are, but it could be worth getting a costing estimate from somewhere like this

 

https://www.estimators.com/

 

it won't pick up all the details but give you an idea.

 

I picked up on the second fix carpentry (as i am doing it now) and there is an factor of how high spec you go. The provisional sum is £530 to supply and fit a door which could be wildly off depending on what you go for.

 

For me a Howdens prefinished door (which are mid range), door linings (softwood), and door furniture comes to about £150 + vat materials, this can be more if you go for flash doors.

 

I was getting quotes of £200 a door to fit door linings / door / and furniture in timber studwork, London may be more. 

 

So about £350 a door supply and fit, but again what door you go for. 

[Thorfun]

2 minutes ago, Moonshine said:

I picked up on the second fix carpentry (as i am doing it now) and there is an factor of how high spec you go. The provisional sum is £530 to supply and fit a door which could be wildly off depending on what you go for.

 

For me a Howdens prefinished door (which are mid range), door linings (softwood), and door furniture comes to about £150 + vat materials, this can be more if you go for flash doors.

 

I was getting quotes of £200 a door to fit door linings / door / and furniture in timber studwork, London may be more. 

 

So about £350 a door supply and fit, but again what door you go for. 

is this not a perfect example of a main contractor route though? the main contractor will pay the chippie £200 per door and add £100 on top for himself and then add another £50 for risk and you end up around the £530 per door he's quoting? that's why a main contractor is going to be a LOT more than project managing the build/renovation yourself and hiring in subbies. you're not paying the 20% overhead on materials and whatever overhead the main contractor feels like adding on for labour and risk.

 

our chippie charges us £250/day in West Sussex. i'm not sure how many doors can be fitted in a day but it's gotta be more than 1 1/4, right?

[Conor]

1 hour ago, James Frome said:

It was 10% of the total build cost (but this didn't include the manufacturing and construction phase). I think it was therefore at a 15% rate of total build cost which is high-end and in retrospect, foolish. 

tbh, you'd be aiming for 10% TOTAL professional fees for a project like this. Typically 5% architect, 1-2% SE, 1% approvals, BC, PP and the rest other surveys and licences. The capital cost of the works doesn't really change this ratio much.

 

All you can really do at this point is go to the market and get two other quotes. Don't rush in to anything. 

[Moonshine]

3 hours ago, Thorfun said:

is this not a perfect example of a main contractor route though? the main contractor will pay the chippie £200 per door and add £100 on top for himself and then add another £50 for risk and you end up around the £530 per door he's quoting? that's why a main contractor is going to be a LOT more than project managing the build/renovation yourself and hiring in subbies. you're not paying the 20% overhead on materials and whatever overhead the main contractor feels like adding on for labour and risk.

 

But there is a £50k sum in the quote for the PM/QS for a 28 week period.

So it could be considered double counting.

[ETC]

5 hours ago, James Frome said:

It was 10% of the total build cost (but this didn't include the manufacturing and construction phase). I think it was therefore at a 15% rate of total build cost which is high-end and in retrospect, foolish. 

Having looked at the floor plans and for that size of a building and making a stab at the extent of the works required I still think the fees were far too high. While I appreciate that restoration works tend to be more labour intensive for everyone including your architect I would have expected 10% to include a complete design team (if one was needed) including a QS for the complete duration of the project.

 

Having looked at the cost breakdown there are quite a few Provisional Sums which make me wonder how detailed the drawings are and how much information the materials specifications actually have. I would love to see the drawings if you are minded to post them - I’d love to see what a set of drawings that cost £50k actually look like. As an architect I pride myself in making sure everything is specified to within an inch of its life before a QS gets anywhere near it. I really think that having so many Provisional Sums in a cost estimate is really a cop out and looks like someone throwing costs at a project and covering their back side. 

 

For what it’s worth I would take a deep breath, circle the wagons and look at getting some advice from another architect and/or QS. A second opinion as it were.

[James Frome]

31 minutes ago, ETC said:

Having looked at the floor plans and for that size of a building and making a stab at the extent of the works required I still think the fees were far too high. While I appreciate that restoration works tend to be more labour intensive for everyone including your architect I would have expected 10% to include a complete design team (if one was needed) including a QS for the complete duration of the project.

 

Having looked at the cost breakdown there are quite a few Provisional Sums which make me wonder how detailed the drawings are and how much information the materials specifications actually have. I would love to see the drawings if you are minded to post them - I’d love to see what a set of drawings that cost £50k actually look like. As an architect I pride myself in making sure everything is specified to within an inch of its life before a QS gets anywhere near it. I really think that having so many Provisional Sums in a cost estimate is really a cop out and looks like someone throwing costs at a project and covering their back side. 

 

For what it’s worth I would take a deep breath, circle the wagons and look at getting some advice from another architect and/or QS. A second opinion as it were.

Thanks for the thoughts. 

The technical designs are not complete yet. This cost plan was based on a number of conversations with the architect and semi-detailed drawings.

Therefore, I am not going to jump the gun too much as there are a lot of provisional sums. 

I will give further updates off our conversation together tomorrow. 

For now, I have sent this email to the team: 

"

Dear ....

 

We are looking forward to our meeting tomorrow.

 

So everyone is singing off the same hymn sheet, and so you understand our perspective and firm position, we are particularly conscious around the financing of this project. 

 

We bought the house for £600,000. We have now spent £693,000 including architects fees, stamp duty and other costs. We are assuming the structural engineer and party wall process will cost around another £7000. This brings the cost up to £700,000. 

 

We have a maximum total budget of £1,250,000 (including VAT). We estimate the house with the small extension room to be worth £1,300,000. We therefore are firmly targeting £500,000 (including VAT) as our total build cost with £50,000 leftover as a backup in case of unforeseen issues. If the small extension room isn't given planning permission, the house will be estimated at £1,250,000, and therefore our maximum total budget will be £1,200,000. 

 

If we assume the house is 128m squared, including the small extension room, then the total renovation / build cost per square metre has to be £3900 (including VAT). This means, if we assume the VAT to come in at 10% overall (as some will be 5% and some will be 20%), then the total cost per square metre before VAT has to come in at £3500. 

 

It is as simple as that, and our decision making flows from this premise. We will have to make some compromises clearly, but we are confident we can achieve a mid-high range finish with this budget. 

 

We hope this is clear, and we are looking forward to chatting through this tomorrow 🙏

 

Best,

 

James & Grace"

 

[James Frome]

1 hour ago, Moonshine said:

 

But there is a £50k sum in the quote for the PM/QS for a 28 week period.

So it could be considered double counting.

This is something to keep an eye on - to what extent are they double counting? Thanks for raising.