Heat pumps won’t work in old homes, warns Bosch

[Temp]

Not really news but I can't recall a heat pump manufacturer stating this so clearly...

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/03/14/heat-pumps-wont-work-old-homes-warns-bosch/

 

Quote

 

Heat pumps will not work for Britain’s Victorian houses, one of the largest makers of the devices has warned.

 

Vonjy Rajakoba, managing director of Bosch UK, told The Telegraph that heat pumps did not make sense for older homes that lack extensive insulation or were not detached.

 

Mr Rajakoba said: “At low temperature you need well insulated homes, you also need space for heat pumps for the external unit and also the tank, so you need to have the sort of home which is adequate around the heat pumps.

 

“We think that in the UK, with the fleet of Victorian houses or period houses and so on, hydrogen, or in the interim hydrogen-ready boilers, are the solution.”

 

Continues..

 

 

 

[RichardL]

Potentially go A2A instead - sweet spot with electric giving more out than in, but only needs to get the air temp into the 20s rather than water to 50s.

If you don't mind the warm breeze of course & doesn't help with hot water.

[DanDee]

4 hours ago, Temp said:

Not really news but I can't recall a heat pump manufacturer stating this so clearly...

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/03/14/heat-pumps-wont-work-old-homes-warns-bosch/

 

 

 

 

context context context 

 

"Like Bosch, gas industry chiefs are backing hydrogen as a long-term solution to heating homes. Industry representatives wrote a joint letter to the House of Lords committee that published February's report on hydrogen, arguing that heat pumps will be "unviable" for millions of low-income households, high-rise flat residents and those in small properties."

 

All Worcester Bosch boilers are already hydrogen-blend ready. That means they can run on a blend of 80% natural gas and 20% hydrogen, ready for when the government begins to add hydrogen to the UK gas grid.

 

 

[Andehh]

Obvious comment from an obviously biased source. Not entirely wrong though.... 

[ReedRichards]

Hydrogen is a very leaky gas.  Is it really more viable than a heat pump?

[nod]

So true 

 

We had a refurb job in Liverpool Every house fitted with a Mitsubishi HP

Everything supplied and fitted for free

Every day there was people Heras sing the plumbers complaining that there bills had gone up and there rads weren’t heating up 

The heating company that had retrained half there staff (3 day course) Had already stated that there would be issues Yet the government still pours our money into these schemes 

 

Im not saying that all of us should get a HP for free While it would be nice The cost should be similar to fitting a gas boiler 

PV is just as bad with outrageous claims of slashing bills Then saddling home owners with long term debt 

The ambulance chasers will move from PV to HPs next 

[DanDee]

11 minutes ago, nod said:

 

The heating company that had retrained half there staff (3 day course) Had already stated that there would be issues

 

The heating company should not retrain any of their staff and not take any customer money until two of their leading heating engineers should design a heating system to either their home or work place to which they can attach any heat pump on the market, and then check how the heating system should function so that it distributes the heat from the heat pump efficiently.

 

As long a the heat pump as a product doesn't have any defects that makes it not meet the specs, the heating distribution system is the only part that matters, which a heating engineer according to their qualified experience will either fail or make it a success.

 

To have a heating engineer not achieve the requirements of a system to move heated water around a system efficiently has nothing to do with the heat pump.

 

Examples are UrbanPlumbers and AllenHart999, two boiler engineers installing HP successfully. I wonder why some can do a proper job and some not.

[nod]

It doesn’t work like that 

They have absolutely nothing to do with sizing selling etc 

They simply tender for the contract 

[Kevm]

14 minutes ago, DanDee said:

 

The heating company should not retrain any of their staff and not take any customer money until two of their leading heating engineers should design a heating system to either their home or work place to which they can attach any heat pump on the market, and then check how the heating system should function so that it distributes the heat from the heat pump efficiently.

 

As long a the heat pump as a product doesn't have any defects that makes it not meet the specs, the heating distribution system is the only part that matters, which a heating engineer according to their qualified experience will either fail or make it a success.

 

To have a heating engineer not achieve the requirements of a system to move heated water around a system efficiently has nothing to do with the heat pump.

 

Examples are UrbanPlumbers and AllenHart999, two boiler engineers installing HP successfully. I wonder why some can do a proper job and some not.

 

Because in most cases asking a gas fitter to install and commission a heat pump is like asking a tyre fitter to change an engine.  

[DanDee]

2 minutes ago, Kevm said:

 

Because in most cases asking a gas fitter to install and commission a heat pump is like asking a tyre fitter to change an engine.  

 

I wonder why the heat pump is the issue in this equation.

[JohnMo]

19 minutes ago, Kevm said:

Because in most cases asking a gas fitter to install and commission a heat pump is like asking a tyre fitter to change an engine. 

Not sure that is entirely true.  

 

The principles of plumbing are just the same no matter what the heat source.  What is important is the rules of thumb everyone seems to use, should not be used on heat pumps, but that is also equally true for any low temperature heating system, no matter the heat source. My heat pump install is just unplug the gas boiler plug in the heat pump, because it was designed from scratch to use a gas boiler at the lowest possibly temperature, to promote as much condensing as possible.

 

The only real difference is a heat pump system is always designed to be a low temperature heating system and will always be one. The warmer the flow temperature the larger the cost to run.

 

The issue with large drafty poorly insulated properties is the radiators have to be huge to use really low flow temps, so big that it's not really practical, so a compromise size is used and higher flow temp, CoP drops, costs go up beyond what you pay for gas. The press say heat pumps are rubbish, manufacturer get a bad name...blah, blah..

[Ralph]

We all know they don't work in poorly insulated and leaky houses so that's fair enough. However, there is a political bias when it comes to ASHP. Google Telegraph and heat pumps then google The Guardian and heat pumps and you get this,

 

[ProDave]

I despair of journalists when I read something like:

 

Quote

The electric devices raise the temperature in people's homes by pumping compressed air from outside to raise the temperature indoors.

But no surprises when a boiler manufacturer writes an article trying to sway the argument towards hydrogen boilers instead.  WHEN someone comes up with a cost effective way to produce a lot of hydrogen and zero emissions, and a reasonable cost perhaps we can take it seriously. but we are not there yet, not by a long way.

[JohnMo]

I have seen a lot of telegraph articles come up on the news feeds all seem biased against heat pumps, and a lot of miss information like they cost lots to service etc.

[TW9]

Energy Catapult showed that heat pumps can work in all types of property (assuming there's space to fit one) - https://es.catapult.org.uk/news/electrification-of-heat-trial-finds-heat-pumps-suitable-for-all-housing-types/

 

The Fully Charged Show did an episode on hydrogen. The expert they talked to explained why hydrogen is not a good option in pretty much every situation (particularly home heating) - https://youtu.be/MgmBkvrO0Dg

[SteamyTea]

Surely the big news today is that Rishi Sunak allowed his dog off its lead, when the signs clearly stated they must be on a lead.

https://news.sky.com/story/rishi-sunaks-family-reminded-of-rules-by-police-after-dog-filmed-without-lead-in-hyde-park-12833743

Edited March 15, 2023 by SteamyTea

[Marvin]

 

10 hours ago, Temp said:

Vonjy Rajakoba, managing director of Bosch UK, told The Telegraph that heat pumps did not make sense for older homes that lack extensive insulation or were not detached.

I think Vonjy Rajakoba is right, it doesn't make sense. Yes you can do it, but who would want to pay the energy bill to run it?

 

Does BOSCH have a vested interest in promoting something else? Sure!  Does this make the comment invalid? No!

 

Do I have an ASHP in my home? Yes. Would I install one in my home if it was an older home that lacked extensive insulation and was not detached? NO!   WHY?  Because it would cost too much to run!

18 minutes ago, TW9 said:

Energy Catapult showed that heat pumps can work in all types of property (assuming there's space to fit one) - https://es.catapult.org.uk/news/electrification-of-heat-trial-finds-heat-pumps-suitable-for-all-housing-types/

The report is absolutely right @TW9!   However, did you see anywhere that the reports discussed energy costs? I didn't. 

Edited March 15, 2023 by Marvin
clarification

[SteamyTea]

I think the real problem is that people do not know the difference between temperature, power and energy, and how they all relate to each other.

A better headline would have been.

"Boiler manufacturer enjoy financially punished thick people that fell asleep in science lessons"

[IanR]

1 hour ago, Marvin said:

 

I think Vonjy Rajakoba is right, it doesn't make sense. Yes you can do it, but who would want to pay the energy bill to run it?

 

Does BOSCH have a vested interest in promoting something else? Sure!  Does this make the comment invalid? No!

 

The energy bills would only increase if the emitter size can't be increased to reduce the flow temp so that CoP is in the region of 3 to 3.5 for Space Heating at today's pricing, assuming we are comparing to networked gas.

 

With the likelihood that the ratio of electricity to gas price will reduce over time, the cost of energy to heat the home (well insulated or not) will swing further in favour of electricity.

 

But, comparing to gas price is a short-term calculation, since ASHP are being "pushed" as the volume replacement as gas and other fossil fuels are phased out, the comparison should be to other non-FF heating systems. ie. resistive/radiant electricity, hydrogen, bio-fuels...etc.

 

How much will it cost to heat that old leaky house with hydrogen?

Edited March 15, 2023 by IanR

[ToughButterCup]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

I despair of journalists when I read something like:....

 

There are very few journos around. Most are  dogs in a fight without end.

[Post and beam]

3 hours ago, ReedRichards said:

Hydrogen is a very leaky gas.  Is it really more viable than a heat pump?

Unless the containment is very high tech i think hydrogen is lost at the rate of .7% per day. Not really an issue within the home on the downstream side of the meter but an issue none the less.

[JamesPa]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

WHEN someone comes up with a cost effective way to produce a lot of hydrogen and zero emissions, and a reasonable cost perhaps we can take it seriously. but we are not there yet, not by a long way

Isn't this the key point.  Hydrogen isn't a viable alternative yet and may never be. Relying on something which doesn't exist to fix a problem which we have allowed to become urgent is a fools game, with the consequences selfishly foisted on our children.

 

Leaky Victorian homes are difficult and expensive to heat irrespective of the heating technology.  So insulate them!

It's disruptive, but the consequences of global warming are orders of magnitude more disruptive.  Then fit a heat pump.

 

Unfortunately there are two many vested interests in prolonging the status quo for another decade or two, by which time the problem will have become even more urgent. 

 

Edited March 15, 2023 by JamesPa

[Iceverge]

@RichardL like you I think 

 A2A is a sensible option, even for for old properties. @Hanksy did a few posts a year or two back demonstrating this. Unlike ASHP you avoid heating any fabric (UFH) which in uninsulated houses is a black hole for energy use. 

 

A good unit can be installed for maybe £1500.  One in the hallway or living room of every gas boilered house could significantly reduce gas demand (provided the power stations run on something low emission) . 

 

 Minimal disruption Vs ASHP and better COP. Leave the gas in place for topping up cold rooms and DHW.

[SteamyTea]

26 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

here are very few journos around. Most are  dogs in a fight without end.

Won't be any soon.

https://www.theregister.com/2023/03/08/uk_publisher_using_ai/

[ProDave]

11 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

Leaky Victorian homes are difficult and expensive to heat irrespective of the heating technology.  So insulate them!

It's disruptive, but the consequences of global warming are orders of magnitude more disruptive.  Then fit a heat pump.

This is the real issue.  The poor state of much of the UK housing stock, and who is going to upgraded them all, and when, and more importantly who is going to pay for it?

 

That is the can that is being kicked down the road hoping it will go away.  How you heat them is almost the secondary issue compared to how do you reduce the amount of heat they need.