Octopus "Saving Sessions"

[jack]

17 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

I can't see that each house saving 0.5 kWh

 

That number is what I saved on that particular day. Why are you extrapolating that number to the rest of the country ad infinitum and assuming it will stay like that no matter how the implementation changes?

 

17 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

is the long term solution.  

 

This isn't "the long term solution". It's an experiment around one particular element.

[SteamyTea]

1 minute ago, jack said:

Why are you extrapolating that number to the rest of the country ad infinitum and assuming it will stay like that no matter how the implementation changes?

To highlight why it is a bad, and unnecessary, experiments.  I have very little usage during the day, generally under 2 kWh, usually 1.3 kWh, over 16 hours.  Most people could do what I do, but won't save any money for the reasons that usage will just happen at other times.

I think I read somewhere that on a previous trial the saving was 0.3 kWh.

[SteamyTea]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-humber-63707463.amp

 

That has to be a better way to load balance.

[Marvin]

11 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-humber-63707463.amp

 

That has to be a better way to load balance.

+1. 

[Radian]

25 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-humber-63707463.amp

 

That has to be a better way to load balance.

Reckons 196 MWh is enough power 300,000 homes for two hours: 327W per house. Not at around 6PM it won't.

[SteamyTea]

11 minutes ago, Radian said:

Reckons 196 MWh is enough power 300,000 homes for two hours: 327W per house. Not at around 6PM it won't.

Would power my house, I am usually at work then.

[jack]

40 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-humber-63707463.amp

 

That has to be a better way to load balance.

 

 

At 327 W average, this is less than the average by which I reduced my energy consumption during this trial (bearing in mind the issues I had with my wife choosing this period to do vacuuming etc).

 

And that's for 300,000 homes - there are 25 million homes in the UK, so we'd need 75 of these installations to provide the same level of storage for everyone. Fair bit of time, resources, and money required before we can get anywhere near that level of storage.

 

As I've said before, I'm firmly in support of building out storage. Unless and until we do that, reducing energy consumption is one thing we can do to improve the situation. All we seem to be arguing about is whether there's any point trying to get people to reduce their consumption when peak consumption overlaps with reduced output, and if so, how.

 

 

[ProDave]

3 hours ago, Marvin said:

I am late into this but surely the only thing that can be deduced from the trial is that people involved in the test reduced the amount of power they used during the test period? 

 

Surely the only conclusion is that if you incentivise people to avoid using/use less power during a short set period of time, thus making it cheaper to use power at other times, the amount used will become less than usually used.

 

We need a test for this???

 

One could hypothesise from this that less expensive power would be used during a 24 hour period if such a system was introduced (and maybe the facilities producing power would not need to be able to produce such a high level of power to supply the peak), however if this is about money, as the price is dictated by a free market, surely the suppliers will just try to raise the price of power either side of the test period when people would be using more, thus cancelling the "saving effect".

 

Or have I missed something?

Retired people can run their washing machine or hoover at any time of day and could if not stuck to convention cook and eat outside of the evening peak time.

 

The problem is all those working people.  They might set the washing machine on a timer to get it at a cheaper rate but can't do that with much else.  Now tell them they are going to be penalised if they are to want to cook a meal when they have just got home from work and try telling them they should really either leave work earlier to cook earlier, or sit at home hungry until later in the evening before turning the oven on.

 

We need to look at what else contributes to that big evening peak that is the problem.  Is it really just everyone cooking?  are there industrial users that could more easily shift their loads out of that time?  I just don't see that trying to get domestic customers to change is going to do enough.

 

I suspect this "pay not to use" experiment is possibly flawed by those who choose to deliberately use their big loads in the peak time to gain their "normal" use and then not use them on the experiment days.  I wonder if anyone has compared their "normal" use with a similar time frame before the experiment was announced to see if that is happening or not?

[Ferdinand]

21 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said:

H mmm several members of my family think this way - I think you are supposed to make an effort (well somebody is!)

 

Precisely.

 

Somebody *else*.

 

You are clearly too house proud and not stubborn enough 🙂.

[Nick Thomas]

Power use was pretty stubborn this time:

 

 

I just couldn't get that 400W to go away. The heat pump was silent, but I suspect it was using the power somehow - if not, then the fridge-freezer has to take the blame. Curiously resistant to flicking the power on either of them to check.

 

The heat pump has been working over the past week - we even had a 3°C day -  and I usually cook 6-6:30ish but refrained today, so the baseline may be more attractive than the previous session.

 

New door is in, and I think it did make a difference to heat loss from the thermostat's point of view, but now I've got a million other tiny air leaks to track down 😅.

 

Managed to get the TV off this time as well, and it was nice to sit and play with the baby for an hour without cbeebies droning on in the background.

[jack]

24 minutes ago, Nick Thomas said:

Power use was pretty stubborn this time:

 

 

I just couldn't get that 400W to go away. The heat pump was silent, but I suspect it was using the power somehow - if not, then the fridge-freezer has to take the blame.

 

Does your heat pump have a sump warmer or a drainage tray defrosting circuit? Both of those will use resistance heating. 

[Nick Thomas]

It does, but today was 7°C outside so I don't think it was on. Peaks at ~200W when it is on.

 

There's also a "keep the circulating water above freezing" mode that I *hope* is turned off, because we've got antifreeze in the circuit.

 

I'll just turn the heat pump off half an hour early next time.

[joth]

There's another company getting in on the experiment,  anyone can sign up, it's not tied to the energy supplier to the house.

They say they're paying £3/kWh saved but can't find any definition of how the baseline is calculated that the savings are evaluated against.

https://www.powerrewards.app/

 

Wonder how good they are at stopping one house signing up to multiple schemes simultaneously 

[Adrian Walker]

1 hour ago, joth said:

There's another company getting in on the experiment,  anyone can sign up, it's not tied to the energy supplier to the house.

They say they're paying £3/kWh saved but can't find any definition of how the baseline is calculated that the savings are evaluated against.

https://www.powerrewards.app/

 

Wonder how good they are at stopping one house signing up to multiple schemes simultaneously 

 

I'm trying it for a friend, if you want a referral code to earn 10 point (whatever that is) mine is WAL888834

[SteamyTea]

Has anyone worked out what the price difference is for upping consumption during the timed usual usage session, then using as little as possible for the rebate session?

[Radian]

3 hours ago, joth said:

Wonder how good they are at stopping one house signing up to multiple schemes simultaneously 

National Grid will identify the usage by the 16 digit MAC so I can't see them issuing payment to multiple schemes. What I find more interesting is how easy it is to get a MAC if you're in someone's else's house. Armed with that info and the name and address of the house owner, you can see their half-hourly usage using an app like Bright, and sign-up for reward schemes like this. Not that you'll be able to control someone else's usage, but you might get lucky.

[SteamyTea]

19 minutes ago, Radian said:

What I find more interesting is how easy it is to get a MAC if you're in someone's else's house.

Is it based on the MPAN number, they tend to be outside, in an easily identifiable box.

19 minutes ago, Radian said:

Not that you'll be able to control someone else's usage, but you might get lucky.

You can pull the main fuse, then stand around with an indigent look, while complaining about the Russians/Government/Power Company/ noisey neighbours.

Claim you have been onto the power company and they say power will be restored in an hour.

Edited November 24, 2022 by SteamyTea

[Radian]

37 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Is it based on the MPAN number, they tend to be outside, in an easily identifiable box.

No, that's a 13-digit code. The MAC is 16-digit and either printed on the outside of the IHD or shown in one of its menus. The DCC system uses this to identify an endpoint for Smart Meter data. Companies like Bright and Orangepower (who run this independent scheme) are licenced as "DCC Other User" and can deal with this data on consent - where consent seems to involve fiddling with the box in your mates kitchen when he's not looking 🙄

[NSS]

Not sure if you ladies have finished arguing over the relative merits of the scheme, but we've just completed the third saver session. We 'earned' 75p in the first session and (to my amazement) £1.12 in the second. Pathetic in the overall scheme of things perhaps, but on the nighttime Go rate of 7.5p per unit that equates to about 90 miles worth of free juice for the Electric Mini. All being well we've just earned another 50+ miles worth - which has to be better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

 

 

[Nick Thomas]

Yeah, I'm keeping up with it myself. They're starting to come thick and fast now - another one today, wonder if they'll become a near-daily occurrence.

 

Between the second and third sessions, I got a 3.2kWh battery installed, so the third looked like...

 

 

Charged it up to 100% from the mains just before, let it discharge back down to 50% from there (I'm keeping half of it back in case of power cuts). That one import spike was microwaving the baby's dinner - I guess the inverter couldn't respond quite fast enough. It does have a setting for faster responses, but I'm a bit leery of fiddling with it. So, whatever the baseline is, I'll have achieved a 99% reduction.

 

I'd turned the heat pump off but left everything else untouched; thermostat dropped from 20°C to 19.5°C. I might just leave it on for today's session, see how the battery manages. 1.6kWh is plenty for us to coast for an hour.

[jack]

We're just doing it (without going crazy) because it seems like the right thing to do.

 

If you were really struggling and your usage pattern allowed you to significantly reduce usage at the right times, being able to make a couple of quid here and there wouldn't hurt.

[NSS]

16 minutes ago, jack said:

We're just doing it (without going crazy) because it seems like the right thing to do.

 

Completely agree, Jack. Fortunately we're still in a negative net cost situation for our energy use so the odd quid here or there is irrelevant. I was merely pointing out that 'doing the right thing' delivers a personal benefit as well as for the grid.

[Kelvin]

The main thing is to get people to think about it. Nudge economics. 

[Happy Valley]

I believe we have saved £2.00 on the first two sessions. Not sure about yesterday and there is another one today. We cook before or after the "hour".

 

Alternatively I could go down the one of the Happy Valley's many excellent pubs for a lovely pint of Bass at £3.50 but I'm not sure about the economics of this 😉

[NSS]

Two hour session tomorrow from 5pm to 7pm.