Nickfromwales Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Get a laser, make a yardstick and you'll know in 10 mins who's dropped a bollock. Update this with more detail once you've attended site please. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 The problem of door cill level is one that I think many have had. The biggest issue is that the thickness of the floor finish and the section of the door cill is critical, not just to get things right, but to comply with Part M. The door manufacturers have reduced the height of their cills, in order to comply with Part M, mainly, and that then reduces the available tolerance for the slab and floor finish. I had a devil of a job getting the dimensions of the cills from the door and window supplier, and when I did get them they were very scruffy, photocopied and then scanned copies of a fax, believe it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 (edited) Just asking questions, can we build in a tolerance to allow adjustment of the external ground level later by say +/- 15mm ? (Yes I know it is more complicated) F Edited June 21, 2017 by Ferdinand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted June 21, 2017 Author Share Posted June 21, 2017 54 minutes ago, Barney12 said: Just to underline @recoveringacademic point. [...] Window and door detailing. Its been a headache from the very start I must have spent an entire working week ferreting out errors of various sorts from the schedule, the drawings, the changed nomenclature, and the requirement that my quadriplegic mate WILL be be able to scoot around in and out of our house on his own without skinning his knuckles. Luckily @craig was sympathetic to that issue. But it only takes one cog in the wheel to make the odd simple error -typo- -poor transposition- to @arse the whole thing up. And I'm spending over £30k. As @Construction Channel points out, some disciplines within the building sector treat the trades with what -at my level- appears to be disdain at least on a par with this. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Re window opening sizes: personally speaking I was in the lucky situation of not being in a rush so I made the deliberate decision to get the timber frame completed first c/w all openings then get the window & door contractor to site to do their own site measure of the openings. Their contract was supply & fit so no arguments or divided responsibility. The big problem with that approach is timescale (and added cost for those living in temp accomodation) - it adds at least 4 weeks onto the overall job. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Ferdinand said: Just asking questions, can we build in a tolerance to allow adjustment of the external ground level later by say +/- 15mm ? (Yes I know it is more complicated) F In our case, the problem is the internal level. The bottom of the front door is barely 8mm above the travertine floor, hardly enough room to get even a very thin door mat in place, and I'm reluctant to try and make a recess for an inset mat. Even then the door cill barely complies with the 15mm Part M maximum height for an accessible door. The irritating thing is that technically this isn't an accessible door, either, as there are steps leading up to it from the drive, so it didn't need a Part M compliant threshold, but the supplier couldn't supply a taller cill section, and I didn't think to have a packing piece added under the cill, an oversight on my part. Another 5mm would have made all the difference, but having had the door off to check there's no way that it could be altered to allow this now.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 ^^ Rationel supply their doors with a packer under them, which you have to remove if you want it to be Part M (or Scottish equivalent) compliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney12 Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 3 hours ago, Nickfromwales said: Get a laser, make a yardstick and you'll know in 10 mins who's dropped a bollock. Update this with more detail once you've attended site please. . Well I've been to site. I didn't have time today to set up the laser but frankly you don't need it to see that the window fitters are doing the best they can to fit windows into holes that are simply not square. The problem exists on the ground floor where the floor slopes left to right by about 15-20mm across 4m. Unfortunately upstairs its even worse with the frame being out of square by a good 25-30mm across the 4m span. With Internorm only allowing a tolerance of 20mm this is of course not making their job simple. Its not easy to photograph (as its so bright outside compared to in) but these pics of upstairs probably demonstrate the issue quite well: Left hand side. Pretty much tight to the floor: Right hand side. 25-30mm gap (its a steady fall across the span: The same is true of downstairs but of course thats a bit more tricky as its a concrete slab. The window fitters view is the whole house is "on the cock" left to right as they're also having to pack the windows. I'm pretty certain the issues in the timber frame can be rectified with some packed battens etc to square up the openings. The doors are sat on the floor deck so that's going to be a pretty big job to put right. As for the concrete base well there is going to be a large amount of levelling and probably a lot more than self levelling compound could cope with. And for clarity: I'm officially having a bad day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted June 21, 2017 Author Share Posted June 21, 2017 Frankly, I admire the tone of your post. I would be fizzing with anger. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Jesus. That's not out a bit that's out a lot. Id buy the window guys some beer ASAP, sounds like they're getting stuck in. Fyi you can self level up to 50mm with certain products, but better to use lots of a cheaper 2-part latex to build up in layers as required. Fyi #2 you can also buy self leveller which is flexible so you'd be able to level the chipboard deck also, but does this problem not reside in every room now? . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 If the slab is out, then the whole frame will end up out of true, I think. I remember the guys spending a lot of time getting the slab set out dead level, presumably to avoid just this problem. I wonder how the slab ended up as it has? I think that's probably the root cause of all the problems your having, as the frame should be pretty much dead square, if our experience is typical, but obviously the whole thing would be thrown out if the slab isn't flat and level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney12 Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 18 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said: Frankly, I admire the tone of your post. I would be fizzing with anger. Ian I'm just disappointed. I very rarely do angry, I find it rather self defeating. I have just written a long email to MBC so I'll see what response I get. This is quite a watershed moment for said company, they are lorded on this forum for their exemplary service/quality and the true test of any companies service is when something goes wrong. I have over 200 directly employed staff so I'm all to aware that when you involve people you get human error. The test is how you resolve it to the satisfaction of the client. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted June 21, 2017 Author Share Posted June 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, Barney12 said: I'm just disappointed. I very rarely do angry, I find it rather self defeating. [...] It's the use to which anger is put that's important. The more creative, the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney12 Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 21 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said: Jesus. That's not out a bit that's out a lot. Id buy the window guys some beer ASAP, sounds like they're getting stuck in. Fyi you can self level up to 50mm with certain products, but better to use lots of a cheaper 2-part latex to build up in layers as required. Fyi #2 you can also buy self leveller which is flexible so you'd be able to level the chipboard deck also, but does this problem not reside in every room now? . Actually the window guys are pretty un-fazed. Perhaps they're just pleased its not their problem! Yes to a greater or lesser extent (obviously influenced by the size of the opening) its every room on the South and North elevation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 The timber frame soleplate MUST go in completely level, packing under if required. Generally packing up to 20mm is OK and after this you would need an engineer to show that it is acceptable. Gaps under the sole plate should be filled with non-shrink grout. Packing between floor zones is a no-no. So is 30mm in 4m. Is it out of square on plan or just elevation? Pretty crap either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney12 Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, Mr Punter said: The timber frame soleplate MUST go in completely level, packing under if required. Generally packing up to 20mm is OK and after this you would need an engineer to show that it is acceptable. Gaps under the sole plate should be filled with non-shrink grout. Packing between floor zones is a no-no. So is 30mm in 4m. Is it out of square on plan or just elevation? Pretty crap either way. Both These pictures of a different window give you an example: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 I would stop work on the building and ask MBC to come up with proposals to remedy this. If you leave it it will impact on loads of things further down the line - furniture, stairs, plasterboard, tiling etc. You have a new house, not a Tudor cottage. Make sure you have their insurance details as you may need to put them on notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney12 Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 21 minutes ago, Barney12 said: I have just written a long email to MBC so I'll see what response I get. Well the MD and Brendan are getting in the car and driving down to site tonight. So I'd say that's pretty impressive so far! I do actually have some confidence it will get sorted, you don't gain a good reputation (especially in the online bear pit of forums) for nothing! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 10 minutes ago, Barney12 said: Well the MD and Brendan are getting in the car and driving down to site tonight. So I'd say that's pretty impressive so far! I do actually have some confidence it will get sorted, you don't gain a good reputation (especially in the online bear pit of forums) for nothing! That sounds hopeful. MBC have accreditation with the Structural Timber Association. Just in case it's of any use in your conversation with MBC here's the tolerances for timber frames published by the STA. Let me know if you need the document sent to you by DM. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSharp01 Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 @Ian that is a very insightful document. But even it admits that a verticle one end of the build can be 10mm out and if it is 10mm out the other end you can have 20mm out of square if you then add a similar error in the z plane it gets worse if the base line is similarly out, IE the verticle line starting point, the error is now 40mm or have I miss read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Something serious has gone amiss here. Not the kind of stress anyone needs during a build! I have every confidence in Joe and Brendan though. All the best for a speedy and successful resolution. Having just looked back again, I'm surprised that the windows fitters would just press ahead with installation given there's clearly something serious going on. Were they really packing up ends of windows by tens of mm relative to the floor rather than just stopping and telling you to get onsite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Construction Channel Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Getting angry at physical objects rarely does anything, there does seem to be an issue somewhere so best thing is to try and find the root of the problem. which you are doing so kudos on staying calm. I am also a little shocked that the fitters just carried on regardless, especially with the doors, the windows will be fairly easy to get over so fair enough for fitting them but that door sill should have stopped work on that opening IMHO. have you put a level on the frame yourself recently? I'm hoping that the fitters have just got a dodgy level which should be a relatively easy fix. How long has the frame been up? it seems strange that this wasnt picked up earlier. Nothing is unfixable so lets just hope for the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney12 Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 13 minutes ago, jack said: Something serious has gone amiss here. Not the kind of stress anyone needs during a build! I have every confidence in Joe and Brendan though. All the best for a speedy and successful resolution. Having just looked back again, I'm surprised that the windows fitters would just press ahead with installation given there's clearly something serious going on. Were they really packing up ends of windows by tens of mm relative to the floor rather than just stopping and telling you to get onsite? In short; yes. It was only that I visited site last night that I spotted the FFL error on the big slider downstairs. If I hadn't raised an issue first thing this morning they would have not even mentioned it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney12 Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 5 minutes ago, Construction Channel said: have you put a level on the frame yourself recently? I'm hoping that the fitters have just got a dodgy level which should be a relatively easy fix. How long has the frame been up? it seems strange that this wasnt picked up earlier. Nothing is unfixable so lets just hope for the best. Yes briefly when I visited site this afternoon but using the window fitters level. I've got a 1800mm fatmax level that I know is accurate so I'm going to head to site shortly and take a closer look. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan52 Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 (edited) Is it possible that the whole frame has slightly sunk on one side throwing everything out of square. Can you put a plumb Bob on the two gables and see what you find. Edited June 21, 2017 by Declan52 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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