ASHP " buffer "?

[zoothorn]

Hi chaps.
 

After a 1.5 year fight with Vaillant about a dreadful, intrusive noise from a frost protection mode ( emanating from a hydraulic unit box absurdly placed in a bedroom ) during the small hours, a situation Ive outlined on here before, Vaillant accepted the hardware 'flaw ' & finally agreeing to replace the whole system. A huge victory for me, & vindication of my long fighting them ( not any installer ) about a hardware flaw of theirs.

 

Agreed in november. A new installer then to innitiate a visit to oversee the replacement ( another 3 month wait). The replacement: a ' monoblock ' ashp, mine with the problem bedroom ' box' is currently a ' split ' ashp. I have no idea of the difference, but, the choice was carefully chosen by them. So far so good. Huge apologies/ promises my findings passed to German designers no less, to re-design ascociated software. 

 

Before they agreed the redo, I had the opportunity to pore over all emailed aspects of the new system info... specifically what the new ' box' is/ how it might differ or similarities/ its size, & where WELL AWAY FROM BEDROOMS it could go. Perfect spot chosen, even a card box made to simulate its size. Once I was promised it wouldn't be as noisy as the one before, & agreed it can be located away from bedrooms, & lastly where I specified I wanted it... THEN I could agree/ give the go ahead/ with thanks etc. All boxes ticked, t's crossed, i's dotted. Diligently, over a year of effort.

 

The installer comes. Need to put a buffer in. A what I say? A buffer. A huge 1000 x 500 extra tank. I had no idea of. I have no clue of. Why if there isn't one now, should there be need for one in a replacement system. Why wasn't I told of this. Q after Q. All my plans scuppered,  as I donot have room fir such an extra tank, let alone furious any extra huge hardware vessel should even be needed: the more there are, the more the likelihood of noise, let alone taking up small space I have in a 2 bed up/ 1 down cottage. Ifit could go outside.. unhappy but ok. But it can't. I mean FFS.

 

Can anyone advise? I am furious about this as now ai cant accept/ have the replacement. Vaillant emailing saying I'm lucky they would be paying for the wretched thing. Lastly, to add insult, the bloody thing is to aid the ' frost protect mode' the very damn mode that's caused me all the grief & the year+ fight. 
 

Thanks for reading, zoot.
 

 

[SteamyTea]

40 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Can anyone advise

If you had read some ASHP topics in here, you will have read about buffers, and the most economical way to run systems.

But you haven't.

[Nickfromwales]

The buffer is just a water tank. No noise, no moving parts other than possibly a circulation pump. 
Do you seriously have literally nowhere for this to go? 

[PeterW]

Buffer can go in the same place the inside box goes now - and the whole point is that it stops the units cycling so much. I would find a space and let them crack on

[zoothorn]

But the point I was really making was, why if my system presently doesn't have an extra huge 1m x 0.5m tank, should a replacement system have one?

 

Also my other point was, if they'd given me the details of the proposed hardware which didn't include this damn huge extra thing needing to go inside... why is it suddenly appearing as deeming needing to be fitted ?

 

I told them due to the noise of their hardware in the bedroom, under no circumstances will I be having the new box/ anything at all in this bedroom or any bedroom. For obvious reasons. 

 

If it has a circulating pump in, & this wretched thing is solely to do with the very overnight frost mode situation that caused me so much grief... then the last place I want it, is anywhere near bedrooms. As then Im in the very same boat again!
 

So proposing I just get them to place it in the very spot, the problem spot, where the old problem unit was... is completely counterintuitive/ redundant as any idea ever was.

And being so huge, there is nowhere else in the small cottage it can go, apart from the loft.. which they say is not possible due to maintenance access to it. This damn frost cycle!! The bain of my bloody life.

 

 

 

[joe90]

Yes it was poor of them not to specify what was being installed but hey at least they are doing it now. I can confirm that I have a buffer tank and it makes no noise at all, just a tank full of hot water!!!, how big is the cupboard the old inside unit was installed in?, if not big enough how big a job to enlarge it? (You then end up with another cupboard, an airing cupboard! As it will not be filled floor to ceiling!) now I know @ProDave has his ASHP on a timer as he is a light sleeper and I have just put one on mine so it’s not on during sleeping hours (and most likely to frost up) so why not do yours this way?

[CotswoldDoItUpper]

I have this square 100L buffer tank. It is compact (space efficient) and silent. Even has a 3kw immersion heater in it for when our boiler breaks (last Friday evening) to give us a bit of warmth in the UFH. Yes there are greater heat losses from it, but it’s a trade off for the space.
 

Just stuck it in the cupboard and use it as an airing cupboard or similar but with a smaller tank then a DHW tank. 
 

https://www.advanceappliances.co.uk/product/141-buffer-stores/

Edited February 2, 2022 by CotswoldDoItUpper

[ReedRichards]

My buffer tank is underneath the hot water cylinder and integrated with it.  I had assumed this was a commonplace solution but perhaps not.  

[Nickfromwales]

2 hours ago, zoothorn said:

I told them due to the noise of their hardware in the bedroom, under no circumstances will I be having the new box/ anything at all in this bedroom or any bedroom.

OK. The buffer tank is a hot water vessel, simply full of water, zero mechanical or moving parts NONE, ZILCH, NIL, NADA. Get the old noisy unit out of your head, keep it off this thread, WE HAVE MOVED ON!!!

The most you will have where this buffer is, is a circulation pump and possibly a motorised 2 port zone valve, one near silent, one totally silent. Noise is NO LONGER an issue. Even if there is a defrost cycle, it will only involve the ASHP sucking warm water back out of the buffer, which will be no more audible than when it is in normal ( quiet ) heating mode. 

 

The new equipment is completely different to the original, the original being a split ASHP with a remote ( internal ) compressor unit ( which was your nemesis ), but the new unit is a monoblock with the compressor outside with it. EVERYTHING that makes noise IS OUTSIDE.

 

This is the most amount of capital letters I have used in a single post since helping to start this forum, so.......read, digest, understand, move forwards. We herby set sail form  new ( quieter ) waters.

 

You can request, of the new installers, that the secondary ( buffer ) pump ( if there is to be one at the buffer ) is located elsewhere in your dwelling, eg away from the bedroom.

 

IF you mention the old system and it's associated noises etc again, I am going to send the boys 'round to duff you up, ok  We're moving forwards, away from the old shite.

 

The management.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Nickfromwales

[SteamyTea]

3 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Get the old noisy unit out of your head, keep it off this thread,

I am so looking forward to seeing what happens.

Can we have a Sweep Stake.

 

[zoothorn]

4 hours ago, joe90 said:

Yes it was poor of them not to specify what was being installed but hey at least they are doing it now. I can confirm that I have a buffer tank and it makes no noise at all, just a tank full of hot water!!!, how big is the cupboard the old inside unit was installed in?, if not big enough how big a job to enlarge it? (You then end up with another cupboard, an airing cupboard! As it will not be filled floor to ceiling!) now I know @ProDave has his ASHP on a timer as he is a light sleeper and I have just put one on mine so it’s not on during sleeping hours (and most likely to frost up) so why not do yours this way?

Hi Joe, if only I could have done this.. I'd have jumped at the idea. When you say ' not on during sleep hours ' I don't know whether you mean use its controls to get it to stop working, or, using the huge mains switch ( which you're never meant to touch ) turn it off here.

 

For the last 2 winters, & the main reason for replacing it ( although infuriatingly, the same frost protect mode is apparently on the replacement system... the difference being only thus; the unit the problem noise eminates from is currently in a cupboard in a bedroom; the replacement system I have made abundantly clear I do not want its indoor box - or anything else whatsoever- sited in the same place.. but only st the furthest point from bedrooms instead) has been my being forced into turning it off -at the big red physical mains switch- each cold day, at 10 pm. This results in the system being shut off entirely/ no electricity into it, until I wake up, freezing cold, then go to red big switch, & turn the whole sodding thing on again. Taking 6 hours to get any heat going. Hopeless. Infuriating. Maddening. Cold.
 

2 winters like this, my electric rads removed for this design disaster... so I am freezing cold for most of each day, those days being the coldest, because that's when the abysmsl noisy frost protect night infuraition is likely to occur. At 11pm..... on....off...... on... off.... on....off... ad nauseum keeping me awake, until 6.30 am when the heating time is to start. Which at least means this pathetic noise infuriation stops. You cannot live like this. It prevents sleep for the whole time 11 pm to 6.30 am. In a room 3 beds away. So yiu can imagine, woukd have ruined my sin in the next room  ( closer to the damn box ), let alone my daughter sleeping in the spare bedroom the box of which is in it's cupboard ( closest to the box ). It is only fate, that thankfully I don't have a son or daughter. But helps my point to explain the awful nature of this intrusion.

 

So when yiu say 'turn it off overnight' I don't know what you mean. Like the way Im forced to do? I doubt you would be doing snything similar, but using the controls to ' turn it off ' instead Id assume you mean Dave does. Which obviously I tried 2 years ago. And the f******g thing just overrides this, comes alive at midnight until 6.30am, ruining my life.

 

The only way I can get it to be quiet, on a cold night, is to turn the whole thing off at the big red power switch, stretching right behind the damn box to find it contorting myself. So angry!!!! But I hsve no choice if I want to sleep. But caveat being... no warmthin house until 6 hours after I turn it on say 7.30 am when I wake, to a freezing cold house.

[zoothorn]

.. so when this company omits to inform me, of a huge extra cylinder (which has a " cycle pump" in & its function bring some connection to this rotten frost protect mode that's ruined my life, just go add insult to injury)... & the only place the f*******g thing can physicslly go........ is back in the spare room cupboard!! My blood has boiled with fury. NO NO NO I willnothsve thiswretched thing bsck in this problem position. Especially if it has ANY bearing on coming active overmight, in this appalling frost protect mode. NO.

 

It may well be, that others' similar tanks ( whatever on earth this damn thing is/ i dont care tbh to know tbh, its just a potential noise monstrosity to me I cannot control ) are quiet as a mouse. But so is their indoor box which doesn't wake them up like mine does. So I can take no comfort, from anyone having a similar tank thing, because of the track record on this frost protect function, which this damn tank apparently has something to do with, being the exact same frost protect mode on the new system!!

 

The only thing I can affect is one thing. Where the damn hardware is relative  to bedrooms. To sleeping. Therefore it has to go furthest point away. No other no other no other position. Which I had ready for the new indoor box. Which they agreed to. But told me NOTHING of any additional huge 'tank' hardware, whatsoever, on mibths wirth of calls I made to pore over every detailof this replacement box. Forgrt the outdoor unit, matters not. It is 100% all about - where- this -one-  indoor box ( potential noise emitter like the current one is ) is located. Nothing else I can affect. Massive time on this, years no less.

 

I am sick with rage. It has affected my mental health having to deal with them/ this protracted fight month after month, whilst being cold too, whilst being prevented from sleeping, whist racking up £hundreds on calls over 2 years. Just to getthe fkn thing to shut the a(expletive deleted)up!

sorry judt need to vent this out. Zh

Edited February 2, 2022 by zoothorn

[Marvin]

I'm confused about discussions about the frost protection mode. 

Is this about protecting the water in the pipes from freezing up or the ASHP grill producing condensation and freezing up?

[joe90]

7 minutes ago, Marvin said:

I'm confused about discussions about the frost protection mode. 

Is this about protecting the water in the pipes from freezing up or the ASHP grill producing condensation and freezing up?

The latter I believe.

[joe90]

@zoothorn, wind your neck in and read @Nickfromwales contribution above, I have simply put a timer on the electrical feed into my ASHP. @ProDave will confirm how he did his.

[vala]

Could you not have a different heat source? Maybe gas or oil?

[zoothorn]

53 minutes ago, joe90 said:

@zoothorn, wind your neck in and read @Nickfromwales contribution above, I have simply put a timer on the electrical feed into my ASHP. @ProDave will confirm how he did his.

 

Yes. Thinking & spieling about it causes me stress. I had to go watch some Joe Pera Talks With You as therapy to calm down.

 

This timer idea though, negates the frost protect mode. Good on the one hand yes,( & what Im doing in effect), but what I need is a replacement system that is QUIET AT NIGHT, it can do wtf at night it wants then, as long as I dont hear it. I had this tantalisingly all sorted, ready to fit, the new 'box' to go near my back door, promises it'll be different, quieter. But now an additional 'tank' ( i really dont care what it is, dont heed to know, as I cant affect whatever the heck it wants to do, it'll do it, whenever the fk it wants too as well IE most likely 2.35 am... Im resigned to this happening), a tank with a dreaded " pump " in & just being told this tank+ pump thing is purely, solely to do with the dreaded ' frost protect mode'.. which just means nightly noise hell... & can only go in one possible place, that is back in the bedroom. So I cant have this. So I cant accept the new replacement system.
 

So i continue to have this horroshow thing to live with. Back at square 1. My 2 year fight I thought won, now utterly lost. Im back to choose between a bit of warmth am ( not much 15* absolute max the warmest room can ever get at 9 am, the other rooms around 13*) & being woken all night without sleep....... or........ freezing cold am, having physically turned it all off 11 pm the night before, but at least being able to sleep.

 

So I have to choose the latter. You see each time I re-switch it on at 7.30 am, I then have to then press 'reset' on the wretched box to get it to fire up again from being fully stone-cold off. So your idea won't work, there is no benefit to what I do now at 7.30 am, as both ways I have to go press reset.

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, vala said:

Could you not have a different heat source? Maybe gas or oil?

Anything would be better. A different mfr ASHP. Anything. 
 

But no, because this was on a grant. I can barely afford my bills let alone expense on something instead of this pathetic thing.

 

Thing that really grates me, is I removed & sold my electric wall rads ( albeit v. Costly to run )in order to make room or the ashp rads. Now Im forced to turn the system off, I have nothing bar a tiny fan heater to attempt to heat my kitchen & bathroom & bedroom each morning, taking it from room to room. One tiny £5 fan heater more use than a £10k new whole CH system. Makes me bloody angry.

[Roundtuit]

Sounds like your new installers know what they're doing and are trying to give you an effective system with the lowest running costs.  I know you're scarred by the last attempt, but go with it; it will be fine (can't be any worse, can it?).

[joe90]

25 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Thinking & spieling about it causes me stress

Then stop talking bollocks and listen. The only completely quiet heating is resistance heating (immersion in a tank or electric radiators) see, there you go a tank that is quiet. Gas boilers, oil boilers and Lpg boilers all make some noise.

 

25 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

But now an additional 'tank' ( i really dont care what it is, dont heed to know, as I cant affect whatever the heck it wants to do, it'll do it, whenever the fk it wants too as well IE most likely 2.35 am.

Fecking listen, tanks don’t make noises, any heating system, whatever the fuel has pumps and they are virtually silent.

 

25 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

being told this tank+ pump thing is purely, solely to do with the dreaded ' frost protect mode'.. 

Who said that? No it’s not, I have one to stop the ASHP coming on and off too much which is not efficient.

 

25 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

So i continue to have this horroshow thing to live with. Back at square 1.

No you don’t, you had  (what I said soo long ago ) a badly designed heating system that is “not fit fir purpose”, which is why the suppliers have agreed to replace it with a monoblock unit (where all the moving parts are outdoors) like many of us here have with no complaints.

 

25 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

each time I re-switch it on at 7.30 am, I then have to then press 'reset' on the wretched box to get it to fire up again

How do you know.? Have you read this from the technical spec of the new unit?, mine does not and I am sure @ProDave s does not either.

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by joe90

[joe90]

12 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Anything would be better. A different mfr ASHP. Anything. 

NO, you had a split unit (noisy gubbins indoors) and are being supplied a monobloc like the rest of us (noisy gubbins outdoors). Apart from subtleties in software and controls all monoblock heatpumps are basically the same.

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, Marvin said:

I'm confused about discussions about the frost protection mode. 

Is this about protecting the water in the pipes from freezing up or the ASHP grill producing condensation and freezing up?

This aspect, I have been tearing my hair out trying to understand the ' logic of' for 2 years. Even the tech dept explaining makes no sense what so fkn ever. Even they agree with me it makes no sense. So ontop of it doing whatever the flaming hell it does at 2.35 am, 2.45 am , 2.55 am until Im shouting at it & screaming in fury... ie unable to know actually what it is doing adding yet more annoyance... the tech people can't produce any logic in explanation as to what its doing either, let alone why it is so damn noisy. No clue.

 

My argument is that why, if interior room temps never fall below 7*C ever ever, on the coldest night, at the coldest point of the night (I know because Im up at 2.55 am screaming at it / being kept awake by it).... why why why any interior hardware should need any frost protection whatsoever. It doesn't. It shouldn't. Its 7*C lowest ever ever, in my coldest room ( & by god this house is cold).

 

ONLY outside hardware is in need of frost protect, because on the same cold night being 7*C inside.... it's -1*C OUTSIDE.
 

YES THIS MAKES SENSE  TO HAVE A FROST PROTECT MODE...... OUTSIDE..... DO THE FKN CYCLE THING OUTSIDE..... ONLY OUTSIDE.... WHERE ITS NEEDED.... NOT...................... NOT..................... NOT!! ............... INSIDE......... WHERE THERE IS NO NEED FOR IT!!!!

 

The most infuriating thing Ive ever known. Furthermore, I put the above question/ point firmly to them, & the6 even say during this wretched 2.47 am frost protect mode I hear the bedroom box's motor driving me insane, they say in the outside fan unit box.... nothing is happening!!!!!! ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[TonyT]

Let’s be honest you aren’t going to give the new system a chance are you.

that’s before any electricity price increase.

[joe90]

25 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

This timer idea though, negates the frost protect mode.

NO, If the heat pump is not running the antifreeze within it (like your car) stops the fluid freezing. If the heat pump is running, the temp is low and the relative humidity is high frost can form on the unit so the unit goes into reverse and defrosts itself by running previously heated water back outside.

[joe90]

5 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

This aspect, I have been tearing my hair out trying to understand the ' logic of' for 2 years.

Simply read my post above, not hard to get your head around . I am off to bed, I suggest you do the same before you explode ?