Help me cost up my new build (300sq m)

[Seren161]

We are a few months in to our 330m2 plus project which includes a basement. It’s a demolish and rebuild 5 bed detached. Turnkey with our selected builder at 575K contract sum. This includes the upward revision of the initial quote ( early 2020) to account for late 2021 building material prices 

Masonry build, relatively simple design but highly insulated and a fair amount of glazing.

Good spec : ASHP, Underfloor heating, MVHR ,   Cat 6 Cabling, Triple glazed etc. 

So far all good. Went with a reputable local builder after tendering out to 3 reputable local builders ( East Kent) Quotes all came in between 560 and 630. My job and my OH’s jobs preclude any project management or DIY so for us turnkey was the route.

Initially went to cost consultants for an estimate ( cost of just under a grand) quoted 820k without basement and 920k with basement. Another project management  firm said minimum 775K cost before their charges. Prefab kit house provider quoted 650K excluding basement and groundworks and demolition. 

So far I’ve found the free build cost calculators ( home building and renovating etc) were much closer to the mark . ( £495k-£650k for a turnkey main contractor route plus /minus 10 percent for timber frame) 

I’m sure we could have done it for 85K less if we had the time but greater risk of costly errors as we are not builders, dealing with BC, warranty provider, multiple trades , likely longer build , keeping the neighbours informed especially when your lorries are going to cause temporary obstructions etc pretty daunting for 1st timers like us plus self build mortgage providers much happier with turnkey fully costed main contractor if you are not tradespeople 

So far brilliant  progress and still on budget..sure that will change but only with our consent..

 All our tendering builders knew the area well including soil type etc and we had loads of site visits to see their other projects etc as well as assessing how easy it was to get on with them etc. Flexibility etc.

So far it’s been pretty good and relatively stress free. 

 

[matthyde83]

9 hours ago, LnP said:

Interesting that you're going for day rates rather than priced work. Am I right in thinking that's unusual? What do you think are the pros and cons of day rates vs priced work?

I think it’s more popular at the minute with price rises as there are some big unknowns for the builders when they’re pricing jobs.  It’s a builder I’ve used before (on a price) and I’ve seen how hard they work / what they class as a “day” so I trust them.  I’ll be there at least 3 days a week to oversee. I’m helping order materials so I’ve got transparency there. Ultimately I know I’ll be paying for exactly what I get and it’s my job to build in contingency which I can then keep if not used. 
 

So few reasons really but cons are obviously not knowing exactly what it’s going to cost!

[SBMS]

We have recently had quotes back for our self build for those that are interested. 250sqm house plus detached garage and we are coming in at around £1650 per sqm. That’s a good spec, ASHP, MVHR, well insulated and with a healthy 35k budget for the kitchen. Ours has some complex bits with 15k of steelwork, and 2 different ridge heights on roof meaning loose lay with about 3 weeks of joinery building the roof, which added to cost considerably. This is priced for a main local builder/ contractor and clean feet. Just in case this is of interest and this has been priced this week with 2022 prices for everything (which has pushed budget up considerably from last year when we did our budget). 

[NickK]

Where are you based? Also, what construction system is this for?

[SBMS]

43 minutes ago, NickK said:

Where are you based? Also, what construction system is this for?

Lancashire - brick and block with 150mm blown eps cavity. 

[Indy]

11 hours ago, SBMS said:

We have recently had quotes back for our self build for those that are interested. 250sqm house plus detached garage and we are coming in at around £1650 per sqm. That’s a good spec, ASHP, MVHR, well insulated and with a healthy 35k budget for the kitchen. Ours has some complex bits with 15k of steelwork, and 2 different ridge heights on roof meaning loose lay with about 3 weeks of joinery building the roof, which added to cost considerably. This is priced for a main local builder/ contractor and clean feet. Just in case this is of interest and this has been priced this week with 2022 prices for everything (which has pushed budget up considerably from last year when we did our budget). 

 

That's a very good price for a main builder driven project, and a generous kitchen budget. People I've spoken to recently at NSBRC seem to indicate £1650 - £1850 / sq m for a self managed build. We're in one the more pricey parts of the SE so if I can get anywhere near that - I'll be a happy man. 

[Andehh]

We are at around £2250psqm for a "turn key" brick & block project with a builder, large 275sqm bungalow, with all the usual ashp, mvhr, UFH, large over hangs, mono pitch, extra insulation, lots of aluminium windows & large sliding doors etc. Budget kitchen though & nothing for driveways or landscaping. 

Edited March 5, 2022 by Andehh

[SarahG]

I could have almost written this myself, we are also in Elmbridge. We have plans to demolish our existing 2 bed bungalow and replace with 4 bed house. Albeit smaller than yours (195sqm). Our plans are with Elmbridge at the moment, but we haven't completed all the ecology surveys so it has not yet been validated. Once we are a bit further down the line in terms of the planning app we will start talking to builders, if we could get it for around £2500 sqm then I will be very happy, if we are talking £3000-£3500 sqm then we will have to rethink. Reading through this perhaps we need to talk to a QS or an SE first. We haven't had a land survey completed, the architect didn't feel it was worth it as our plot is a fairly straight forward.

 

In order to keep costs down we will probably go for shell build, with electrics and plumbing in and ideally kitchen and family bathroom installed. My husband is very good at DIY and could pretty much do any of works. We did a complete renovation of our current house without paying any tradesmen, other than to sign off the electrics oh and a large area of plastering!. He would however rather not do too much work as we also have demanding jobs and two children (aged 3 and 1).

 

Our architect told us we would need buildings regs drawings before a lot of builders will give us a quote. I am still keen to get some idea of costs, particularly in this area where I feel costs will be extortionate!

[Zak S]

29 minutes ago, SarahG said:

I could have almost written this myself, we are also in Elmbridge. We have plans to demolish our existing 2 bed bungalow and replace with 4 bed house. Albeit smaller than yours (195sqm). Our plans are with Elmbridge at the moment, but we haven't completed all the ecology surveys so it has not yet been validated. Once we are a bit further down the line in terms of the planning app we will start talking to builders, if we could get it for around £2500 sqm then I will be very happy, if we are talking £3000-£3500 sqm then we will have to rethink. Reading through this perhaps we need to talk to a QS or an SE first. We haven't had a land survey completed, the architect didn't feel it was worth it as our plot is a fairly straight forward.

 

In order to keep costs down we will probably go for shell build, with electrics and plumbing in and ideally kitchen and family bathroom installed. My husband is very good at DIY and could pretty much do any of works. We did a complete renovation of our current house without paying any tradesmen, other than to sign off the electrics oh and a large area of plastering!. He would however rather not do too much work as we also have demanding jobs and two children (aged 3 and 1).

 

Our architect told us we would need buildings regs drawings before a lot of builders will give us a quote. I am still keen to get some idea of costs, particularly in this area where I feel costs will be extortionate!

At 2500 it should the top spec. At 3000-3500 I would feel someone is having a laugh but then I am in Midlands and prices in surrey might be double but really?

[SarahG]

3 minutes ago, Zak S said:

At 2500 it should the top spec. At 3000-3500 I would feel someone is having a laugh but then I am in Midlands and prices in surrey might be double but really?

I certainly hope you are right! The issue is house prices in Elmbridge are one of the most expensive in the country, outside London. So builders can charge top whack. Which is fine if you are in it for the profit, but we are not. We are not going high end, but we do want a quality build and good materials. We have kept our build as simple as we can and saving every penny at the moment!

[Thorfun]

3 minutes ago, SarahG said:

I certainly hope you are right! The issue is house prices in Elmbridge are one of the most expensive in the country, outside London. So builders can charge top whack. Which is fine if you are in it for the profit, but we are not. We are not going high end, but we do want a quality build and good materials. We have kept our build as simple as we can and saving every penny at the moment!

get the fabric right from the off and put basic kitchen/bathrooms etc in to start with and then upgrade them to more 'top-end' if you want at a later date when you have more disposable income. you can easily change wall coverings/kitchens/bathrooms etc but it's not easy to add more insulation!

[SarahG]

3 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

get the fabric right from the off and put basic kitchen/bathrooms etc in to start with and then upgrade them to more 'top-end' if you want at a later date when you have more disposable income. you can easily change wall coverings/kitchens/bathrooms etc but it's not easy to add more insulation!

Absolutely, agree with that!

[Indy]

I've had my first quote come in for a sort of full turnkey service on a timber frame building - coming in as £3372 per sq m. Had to do a double take to make sure the figure wasn't wrong! 

 

They've made a number of allowances in there for 2nd fix items like £30k for kitchen+utility, £45k for glazing, £6k for their design service (which we don't need) - all of which seem very toppy to me but I guess this is the number to start with and work down from. 

 

No way we can afford that number and like you Sarah - we're aiming for somewhere as close to £2k as possible. 

[Bitpipe]

1 hour ago, SarahG said:

Our architect told us we would need buildings regs drawings before a lot of builders will give us a quote. I am still keen to get some idea of costs, particularly in this area where I feel costs will be extortionate!

 

This is true if you're using standard methods (brick / block etc).  If you go for a TF package they will quote from planning drawings and do their own detailed design. You still may need a few details for follow on trades.

[SarahG]

1 hour ago, Indy said:

I've had my first quote come in for a sort of full turnkey service on a timber frame building - coming in as £3372 per sq m. Had to do a double take to make sure the figure wasn't wrong! 

 

They've made a number of allowances in there for 2nd fix items like £30k for kitchen+utility, £45k for glazing, £6k for their design service (which we don't need) - all of which seem very toppy to me but I guess this is the number to start with and work down from. 

 

No way we can afford that number and like you Sarah - we're aiming for somewhere as close to £2k as possible. 

Ouch, that’s a lot. I think we may have to get a lot more involved with the build than we first anticipated. We had a quote (from an expensive Esher based architect) in 2021 for a full turn key service. It was £3017-3232 per sqm. I know prices have gone up but that seems a lot! Hopefully the next quote will be in the right direction…

 

1 hour ago, Bitpipe said:

 

This is true if you're using standard methods (brick / block etc).  If you go for a TF package they will quote from planning drawings and do their own detailed design. You still may need a few details for follow on trades.

We will be using brick and block. Would like to get a rough idea before we spend more money on buildings reg drawings ideally

[Water]

It does make you think persimmon have got the process nailed down.

 

I'm in the south east and paid around £2,000 - £2,250 psm exl decorating, kitchen, and bathrooms. Little did I know that was actually great timing as it was agreed just before covid.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Water

[Indy]

46 minutes ago, SarahG said:

We will be using brick and block. Would like to get a rough idea before we spend more money on buildings reg drawings ideally

 

From the discussions we've had so far, the 3 build systems all end up costing roughly about the same. This is not from personal experience, but having spoken to at least a dozen different companies in the last 2-3 months which included traditional builders, TF and ICF suppliers.

 

The shell of the building is only about 20-25% of the cost, and they will all roughly come in at a similar level. Where parts are cheaper, it will be balanced out by higher labour costs (brick and block), and where parts are more expensive - the speed to put that up is higher and hence labour costs are cheaper (timber frame). ICF seems to sit in the middle for both though the advantage with TF and ICF suppliers seems to be that they are willing to quote from planning drawings rather than wait for building regs drawings.

[saveasteading]

Who chose the contractors to ask?  They may be all of a type, and selected because life is easy for the architect with them. Sometimes you get remarkably different quotes from companies with different specialities/ overheads/ attitude to profit.

 

When I was an estimator, for a predesigned project with bills of quantities, there could easily be 6 quotes all within 5% , and only 1/2% between first and second.

Whereas in 'design and build' where the contractor who has design and commercial skills (or not) the variation is more typically 30%, for the same quality but different approaches.

 

[Bitpipe]

32 minutes ago, Indy said:

 

From the discussions we've had so far, the 3 build systems all end up costing roughly about the same. This is not from personal experience, but having spoken to at least a dozen different companies in the last 2-3 months which included traditional builders, TF and ICF suppliers.

 

The shell of the building is only about 20-25% of the cost, and they will all roughly come in at a similar level. 

 

This is a key point - aside from the wall system (inc. cladding / rain screen) everything else will be the same thereafter.

 

Some advantage in TF if you want a complete shell (inc. internal framing) quickly and plan to PM trades after that, ICF offers itself to a degree of DIY and b&b has more widely available materials and labour.

 

 

[SarahG]

OK now I am thinking I need to do some more research in to TF. Any recommendations on TF companies I can talk to? I've looked at Fleming Homes.

[Lesley72]

On 19/01/2022 at 13:24, nod said:

Just to add what others have said 

We have taken the triangular glass out on two vaulted ceiling’s Which gives a massive saving 

@nod how much saving is massive?  What did you replace your triangle windows with?  We are only doing a small 3m wide 4.5m high glass gable end and still waiting for our building regs drawings which I’m assuming will have the dimensions on so we can get costing ? But just worrying now that we may not be able to afford it if people are recommending removing the triangle glass. 

[Indy]

3 hours ago, SarahG said:

OK now I am thinking I need to do some more research in to TF. Any recommendations on TF companies I can talk to? I've looked at Fleming Homes.

MBC timber frame seems to get a regular mention on here. I’ve spoken to them on the phone, quite responsive to my queries though I’m still waiting for the official quote to arrive. 

[Thorfun]

5 hours ago, SarahG said:

OK now I am thinking I need to do some more research in to TF. Any recommendations on TF companies I can talk to? I've looked at Fleming Homes.

Have a search on here or just read the Timber Frame forum thoroughly and you’ll soon get an idea of who people used. 
 

MBC are good at what they do in offering guaranteed air tightness results and foundations as a package but they’re not the cheapest by a long stretch.
 

we decided to get an open panel TF (from Flight Timber) and fit the insulation and airtight membrane ourselves. This saved a LOT of money but has taken (and we’re still at it) a LOT of time. 
 

every one’s situation is different and you need to figure out what is best for you. 

[Buzz]

5 hours ago, SarahG said:

OK now I am thinking I need to do some more research in to TF. Any recommendations on TF companies I can talk to? I've looked at Fleming Homes.

I looked and had quotes from 4 different TF company's solo, English Brothers , Fleming and MBC . 

the one thing to be mindful of is whilst they all supply and build a timber framed shell they varied in quality, cost  what was included and what was extra so much it made comparing like for like quite a challenge . The best performing was MBC and also the most expensive by some margin, Solo was the cheapest but the worst performing unless you start to add in the extra insulation upgrades, English Brothers seemed to offer the best compromise between cost and quality with Fleming not far behind. 

[SBMS]

We're just about to start construction on our self build. It's main builder led so am not doing anything ourselves. If anyone is after any prices for things (roofs, joinery, ASHP, windows, doors, aluminium sliders, garage etc) let me know as I found pricing up one of the hardest things when starting out.  I ended up being miles out!  Build is in Lancashire, traditional brick and block, blown insulation, traditional roof.

Edited March 8, 2022 by SBMS