Heat pump latest government offers

[joe90]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

WHEN are we going to tell the general public the truth?  If you want your old poorly insulated house to go green, you are going to have to spend a LOT of money upgrading the fabric of the house first and properly insulating it, which will be costly and very disruptive.  THEN it might be a good idea to heat it with a heat pump

Too right, “insulate Britain “ is the right direction (even if they are pissing off the public by blocking roads!). YOU ONLY BUY INSULATION ONCE!

[SteamyTea]

3 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

Not quite the correct thread

 

4 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

Do ASHPs require new pipework?

Think it is better to start a new thread about this.

This is about people venting off their frustration about government policy.

[epsilonGreedy]

9 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Too right, “insulate Britain “ is the right direction (even if they are pissing off the public by blocking roads!). YOU ONLY BUY INSULATION ONCE!

 

Insulate Britain is one of the few eco warrior groups I have a bit of respect for. At least they focus on the single most achievable policy that can reduce emissions within 10 years.

[ProDave]

1 minute ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

Insulate Britain is one of the few eco warrior groups I have a bit of respect for. At least they focus on the single most achievable policy that can reduce emissions within 10 years.

But they are doing a lousy job of getting their message over.  They block roads and we know it is "insulate Britain" that is doing it, but ask the general population what are they trying to achieve and I bet most have not got a clue.  They are FAILING to get the message across that most of Britain's houses need a lot of work to improve the insulation levels.

[epsilonGreedy]

2 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Round here all the schools and public buildings like swimming pools and leisure centres switched to biomass boilers about 10 years ago on the mistaken belief that was "green"

 

 

Would "carbon neutral" be a valid alternative description?

[Ferdinand]

12 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Too right, “insulate Britain “ is the right direction (even if they are pissing off the public by blocking roads!). YOU ONLY BUY INSULATION ONCE!

 

I'm expecting there to be "minimum EPC" standards before they get a grant, as there were for solar pv towards the end of the programme, as was applied to RHI through the mechanism of grants linked to how much C02 is saved. 

 

Now the appropriate standard to insist on would be C, as now between 30 and 50% of dwellings are C or better.

[epsilonGreedy]

2 minutes ago, ProDave said:

But they are doing a lousy job of getting their message over.  They block roads and we know it is "insulate Britain" that is doing it, but ask the general population what are they trying to achieve and I bet most have not got a clue.  They are FAILING to get the message across that most of Britain's houses need a lot of work to improve the insulation levels.

 

 

I think Insulate Britain has achieved a fabulous return on investment as would be perceived by marketing campaign executive.

[ProDave]

2 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

Would "carbon neutral" be a valid alternative description?

If it is "Carbon neutral" then that is manipulating that phrase and kidding yourself you are reducing CO2 emissions.

 

A Boimass boiler still sends CO2 up the flue, it still adds to greenhouse gas problems and has reduced the number of trees absorbing CO2.  Just imagine of we all swapped to boimass boilers.  Do you really think the CO2 problem would be solved?  I don't.

[ProDave]

2 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

I think Insulate Britain has achieved a fabulous return on investment as would be perceived by marketing campaign executive.

they have got "noticed" so people know their name, but I still bet very very few know what they actually want to happen.

[Ferdinand]

14 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

 

Think it is better to start a new thread about this.

This is about people venting off their frustration about government policy.

 

Have done.

 

 

[epsilonGreedy]

9 minutes ago, ProDave said:

If it is "Carbon neutral" then that is manipulating that phrase and kidding yourself you are reducing CO2 emissions.

 

A Boimass boiler still sends CO2 up the flue, it still adds to greenhouse gas problems and has reduced the number of trees absorbing CO2.  Just imagine of we all swapped to boimass boilers.  Do you really think the CO2 problem would be solved?  I don't.

 

 

Your post prompted me to visit GridWatch for some definitions.

 

Biomass generation is categorized as a renewable but not carbon neutral apparently, though arguably biomass is carbon neutral over a couple of centuries. Eco is just a vague catch all phrase which must explain why @Jeremy Harriswas so offended by the label, it must have sent his cranial neurons into a recursive definition not found loop.

 

https://gridwatch.co.uk/renewables

 

https://gridwatch.co.uk/carbon-neutral

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by epsilonGreedy

[Ferdinand]

38 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

Insulate Britain is one of the few eco warrior groups I have a bit of respect for. At least they focus on the single most achievable policy that can reduce emissions within 10 years.

 

Whew. I'm quite opinionated on this one. My *personal* view.

 

The problems I have with Insulate Britain is that they are:

 

1 - Actively hurting the vulnerable in society by preventing patients getting to hospital, and impeding ambulances. And then publicly justifying it by stating - from the leadership down - that others' lives and health are a price worth paying because their cause and their opinions are so important.

 

Here, for example, is a report of a stroke victim who was delayed for 6 hours in a traffic jam they caused, and ended up paralysed. There are multiple accounts of hospital patients being impeded.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mum-paralysed-stroke-after-m25-25015653

 

I don't care what they say, how much they know, or how important they think they are, bastards who do that belong behind bars for a very long time, or perhaps need to be sectioned. Were IB to be attacked by men with sticks and end up in hospital themselves with broken legs or broken heads, imo it would be pure poetic justice. 

 

2 - IB are ignorant or dishonest, conveying misinformation.

 

They claim, and try to convince people, that "nothing is being done". Actually the large ECO3 programme has been, and is still, running throughout - doing 100s of k of energy efficienccy measures. IB are preventing people looking for insulation, rather than helping.

 

3 - They tend to be privileged, narcissistic hypocrites

 

We know that ER and IB trend middle-aged middle class, and are interfering with young families, older people, carers etc.

   

Fine, some are goons who have been groomed into criminality; others are doing it willingly. But criminals deserve criminal sanctions.

 

One of the four who smashed the windows of the city bank lives near me. 60 year old semi-retiree millionaire who lives in an old farmhouse (energy efficient?) renting out barn conversions (not very energy efficient ones - EPC 70) for up to £2500 per week. And takes it upon herself to wreck other people's lives on the basis of a set of arguments that are not even well-informed.

 

Overall - beneath contempt.

 

F

[Adsibob]

3 hours ago, TonyT said:

The £5k will just pay for the additional paperwork of the  scheme and the inflated price of the installers.

 

look at the PV price while Fit was on the go, look now, same install probably £5k cheaper.

 

+1

[ProDave]

This £5K heat pump grant is being discussed at mid day on Radio 2 by Victoria Derbyshire.

 

It might be worth a listen but I suspect I will be shouting at the radio.

 

I have sent an email contribution, if you hear something from Dave in the Highlands that might be me.

[SteamyTea]

6 minutes ago, ProDave said:

This £5K heat pump grant is being discussed at mid day on Radio 2 by Victoria Derbyshire

Been discussed, quite badly, on R4 all morning.

Left a program about COP in Glasgow as it was not saying anything new.

 

Regarding MCS taking the £5k as a 'bonus', it may spur others on to do a 5k system. It puts a price on things.

You can now get PV installed for a quarter of the price than 15 years ago, not all of that is down do lower module price.

[epsilonGreedy]

1 hour ago, Ferdinand said:

 

Whew. I'm quite opinionated on this one. My *personal* view.

 

The problems I have with Insulate Britain is that they are:

 

1 - Actively hurting the vulnerable in society by preventing patients getting to hospital, and impeding ambulances. And then publicly justifying it by stating - from the leadership down - that others' lives and health are a price worth paying because their cause and their opinions are so important.

 

Here, for example, is a report of a stroke victim who was delayed for 6 hours in a traffic jam they caused, and ended up paralysed. There are multiple accounts of hospital patients being impeded.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mum-paralysed-stroke-after-m25-25015653

 

I don't care what they say, how much they know, or how important they think they are, bastards who do that belong behind bars for a very long time, or perhaps need to be sectioned. Were IB to be attacked by men with sticks and end up in hospital themselves with broken legs or broken heads, imo it would be pure poetic justice. 

 

 

I find myself in the unusual position of articulating the climate alarmist position.

 

If we accept the consensus view on global warming then by the end of the century sea levels could be 1 to 2m higher and the temperature 2 to 4 degrees higher than the pre industrial era. The alarmists also believe such a world will be ravaged by more extreme weather with hurricanes, fires, droughts, floods and agricultural failures on a biblical scale. Such a world would likely see 100's of millions of humans dying early in life and billions living in misery. The BBC wants me to believe the sky will catch fire as the world spontaneously combusts.

 

Given such an outlook IB actions are rational. Based on current CO2 emission reduction progress we are unlikely to see net zero CO2 emissions eliminated within 50 years and global CO2 PPM will rocket towards 500. An emergency UK national insulation programme is the most effective route to reduce CO2 emissions by 2030. 

 

On balance which is more important, the death of a stroke victim or millions of avoidable deaths by the end of the century?

 

1 hour ago, Ferdinand said:

2 - IB are ignorant or dishonest, conveying misinformation.

 

They claim, and try to convince people, that "nothing is being done". Actually the large ECO3 programme has been, and is still, running throughout - doing 100s of k of energy efficienccy measures. IB are preventing people looking for insulation, rather than helping.

 

 

But co2 ppm continues to rise.

 

You are guilty of the same dishonesty you just alleged. You want to be in the cool gang of climate change alarmism but you are not prepared to enact the changes necessary to avoid a biblical climatic catastrophe that your gang predicts.

 

1 hour ago, Ferdinand said:

3 - They tend to be privileged, narcissistic hypocrites

 

We know that ER and IB trend middle-aged middle class, and are interfering with young families, older people, carers etc.

 

 

I agree, most look like thrill seeking early retirees. They probably worked in the public sector in some clip board hugging role and have natural authoritarian tendencies. 

Edited October 19, 2021 by epsilonGreedy

[ProDave]

Well on R2 now the "experts" are doing a good job of saying how poor heat pumps are and how unsuitable they are for most UK houses.  At least they are mentioning the poor insulation issue.

[SteamyTea]

3 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Well on R2 now the "experts" are doing a good job of saying how poor heat pumps are and how unsuitable they are for most UK houses.  At least they are mentioning the poor insulation issue.

Are they talking about doing proper heat load calculations?

And why the (expletive deleted) are you listening to Radio 2. That is for people that are stuck in the past.

[markc]

Just for the Sh1ts and giggles! 
if the earth warms up we won’t need insulation and will burn less fuel to keep warm ?

how many climate protestors turn their heating off and wear more clothes? Throw away their phones and electrical devices? And walk or cycle everywhere?

the more humanity progresses the softer we get, the more we find fault with everything and the more we go backwards.

answer to climate change ….. cull half the population … and allow the protestors to volunteer first.

[Thedreamer]

My understanding is limited on heat pumps and the UK grid.

 

Does the expected increase in heat pumps result in the need for much more electricity to be generated, how will this occur, whilst already trying to increase the percentage from renewables at the moment?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ferdinand]

2 minutes ago, Thedreamer said:

My understanding is limited on heat pumps and the UK grid.

 

Does the expected increase in heat pumps result in the need for much more electricity to be generated, how will this occur, whilst already trying to increase the percentage from renewables at the moment?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There are various reports and predictions on that.

 

Currently electricity demand is due to decrease for a few more years, then build up again. Whilst a smart grid is in the works and new electricity sources are coming on stream.

 

Lots of moving parts.

[SteamyTea]

23 minutes ago, Thedreamer said:

Does the expected increase in heat pumps result in the need for much more electricity to be generated, how will this occur, whilst already trying to increase the percentage from renewables at the moment?

Yes it will.

The majority will be generated via renewables and some new nuclear.

 

This should not come as a shock to anyone, it has been discussed, like Climate Change, for years.  The people that need to do the work, not small builders and householder, but the infrastructure providers, know what to do, how to do it, and when it has to be done.

None of this is an idea that popped into Boris Johnson's head last night.

 

I also heard them talking about fuel poverty on the radio earlier.  This really does need a proper definition.  Many people still work on 10% of a household's wage.  This is a nonsense number and was plucked from thin air I suspect.

I am going to claim that most households are in 'vacation poverty', 'transport poverty' and 'gambling, fags and booze poverty'.  I base that on nothing that prejudice and ignorance.

But as a nation we are certainly suffering from 'educational poverty'.

[joth]

3 hours ago, IanR said:

Agreed. No idea why Kwasi Kwarteng and Bojo did the rounds last night just talking about Heat Pumps. That's "only" £450M of a £3.9B package of Heat in Buildings strategy that was due to be announced yesterday, but will hopefully go ahead today.

I think a lot of people are generally worried about climate change and genuinely want to believe we are one "silver bullet" away from solving it 

They know adding more insulation isn't going to be that silver bullet as we've been doing that for 30 years but we're still in a worsening state. But heat pumps are a magic new thing they haven't heard of before, so "maybe they will be the magic solution?"

 

[epsilonGreedy]

4 minutes ago, joth said:

 

They know adding more insulation isn't going to be that silver bullet as we've been doing that for 30 years but we're still in a worsening state.

 

 

Could you be more specific about what state is worsening?

[ProDave]

59 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

I also heard them talking about fuel poverty on the radio earlier.  This really does need a proper definition.  Many people still work on 10% of a household's wage.  This is a nonsense number and was plucked from thin air I suspect.

I am going to claim that most households are in 'vacation poverty', 'transport poverty' and 'gambling, fags and booze poverty'.  I base that on nothing that prejudice and ignorance.

But as a nation we are certainly suffering from 'educational poverty'.

My favourite is "Council tax poverty"  and it is the one household bill I can do NOTHING to reduce, no investing in insulation or switching providers possible.