Window lifting equipment

[Thorfun]

we have about 120m² of glazing. not something I wanted to do on my own so I paid the company to fit them. money well spent as far as I'm concerned as some of those windows are big and heavy!

 

there's just some things I know others can do better and safer and quicker and it's worth spending the money on.

[Miek]

4 hours ago, ProDave said:

Careful. you are assuming the openings have actually been made to the size on the drawings.  My builders came and measured the actual as built opening sizes before ordering the windows.

Thats one advantage of using pre made cavity closers , as I am , but you right , I will absolutely make sure they are so spec.

[SimonD]

On 11/06/2022 at 07:24, MikeSharp01 said:

How did you find doing it yourself? We are still trying to get the windows sorted, very tough getting it right and deciding to self fit / not self fit. A few questions if you are up for them:

 

Really good questions, I'll try and answer them as best I can. Doing it myself was definitely not taken lightly and it wasn't easy by any stretch of the imagination, but at the same time it also didn't end up as difficult as perhaps I'd thought once I got on with it.

 

On 11/06/2022 at 07:24, MikeSharp01 said:

1. Why did you go for self fit. EG When the VAT on the windows will be about the cost of the fit and so the whole package will be zero rated and supply only won't, getting it right will be down to the installers.

 

My project is technically a renovation/extension so I didn't have any VAT questions to deal with, but I went for self-fit mainly because I got such a huge variation in quotations for the fit. Lowest was about £4.2k, the hightest just under £8k. None included lifting equipment and I knew I'd need lifting equipment even if it was just to get the windows across the front banking to the house. Having personally seen (and read on here about) poor quality installations, I cynically surmised that I'd be better off ensuring detailing was done on installation rather than once the installers had already legged it from site, or further down the road. I know someone who used a known reputable company to supply and install and have had years of headaches down to poor installation, a fight probably going all the way to the courts because every time the company promises to come and fix the problems, they cancel a few days before visiting, or don't turn up. If I did it myself I'd only have myself to blame!

 

Another reason is that all my ground floor windows are fitted externally to the walls to sit within the new EWI. I needed some additional detailing information about this for the most appropriate approach.

 

But also to put it into context, I have built the whole house entirely myself, with the only exception of a 2 man team and crane to install the steel frame. I felt I'd be cheating on myself if I got someone else in to do this 😁

 

On 11/06/2022 at 07:24, MikeSharp01 said:

2. How did you verify the sizing / fitting clearances?

 

I measured, and re-measured, and re-measured, and re-measured.... the as-built rough openings. I know this part is a worry for a lot of people but it's just about being careful with the tape measure and re-checking the readings. I went for 8-10mm clearance.

 

On 11/06/2022 at 07:24, MikeSharp01 said:

3. How did you find getting the cill details correct?

 

This really wasn't a problem. I ended up switching supplier having received a final massively inflated quote from the supplier I'd originally selected. This meant a change from aluminium to timber sills and a change in position of the frames within the openings - I had to move the frames slightly out from the timber frame on the first floor. All the relevant technical details about minimum frame support were available from the manufacturer. Then, in terms of weathering, it was just a case of doing the math to specify to total cill extension needed for either the cladding or render portions of the house.

 

The more difficult process was detailing the rough openings within the timber frame and the EWI as I couldn't find a great amount of easily available and reliable information about this in the public domain. I got some from the window/door manufacturer which was very helpful, but then had to spend a lot of time doing research on this. I made up my own window and door sill trays where necessary too. I also got some detailing information from the EWI manufacturer.

 

On 11/06/2022 at 07:24, MikeSharp01 said:

4. I guess as you fitted then yourself you also did the air tightness work. (Our installers don't want anything to do with the air tightness work to the extent they do not want to fit the tapes to the frames before they fit them so they can go on the outer of the frame not take up frame space.) How did this go?

 

This part of the process was fine but time consuming. I've used a mixture of expanding tapes and airtight tapes internally (on the bay returns and EWI), and Soudal's SWS window system which comprises and external sealant, foam around the frame, and then either an airtight internal sealant or the LQ airtight liquid membrane. 

 

As a note of experience from the inexperienced, I've used a lot of the expanding foam tapes from several different manufacturers in the detailing of the EWI as the EWI requires a lot of extra careful detailing around any openings that comprises several stages of weather protection. What I've found is that when it's the middle of winter and the tape has been in the freezer, you've got loads of time to install the stuff before it expands. In the summer, when it's warm and you're using the expanding foam tapes to fill between about 3 - 12mm, it's expansion rate means you've got to work really fast even if it's been stored in the freezer! In this sense, when working alone, I prefer using the Soudal SWS sealant so you've got all the time you need to get the window into the rough opening, set it all true and plumb, get it fixed and then seal it all up and once set, fill the gap with foam. JMHO.

 

Another tip is to have a section of soft plastic tube on the end of the foam gun so you can push it full depth between window frame and rough opening to ensure full fill of the foam.

 

On 11/06/2022 at 07:24, MikeSharp01 said:

5. How did you move the windows around the site to get them to the lifting points if working on your own?

 

For the smaller windows I made up a simple dolly and used vacuum lifters as hand holds. For the larger items, I made up a trolly using kwikstage scaffolding with wheels (I bought the wheels with the kwikstage scaffolding). On the trolly I made a lifting arm for a chain hoist and vacuum lifter so I could lift the window/door onto the trolly from the pallet,  then pushed the trolley round to the lifting point - with the really heavy items like the french doors I towed the trolley with my mini dumper.

 

For the heay windows I used a rented vacuum lifter hung on the end of the chain hoist but for the smaller units I used a Grabo together with some Faithful heavy duty manual vacuum lifters used as handles to make it easy to move and position the unit.

[MikeSharp01]

3 hours ago, SimonD said:

But also to put it into context, I have built the whole house entirely myself, with the only exception of a 2 man team and crane to install the steel frame.

Brilliant post - thanks for taking the time to share.

 

We are the same building it all ourselves and I don't want to employ anybody if I can help it. I did not do the roof slating as I have no head for heights, I built the roof from the inside, but everything else is just me with occasional help when I need someone on the other end of things. So I would like to have installed the windows and it may come to that if I cannot get a team I can trust to get it dead right first time and so your advice is timely.

[Makeitstop]

Have to admit, Simons posts always impress me.

 

Not only with the good nature and spirit he does so with, but also with the knowledge and experience he's always so ready to share in a detailed yet easy to understand way.

 

He's an asset to this board.

[Makeitstop]

And no, I'm not his wife, or paid employee.

 

 

[AliG]

As things stand at the moment it looks like we need a massive crane as the only way to lift the doors to the other side of the house. This is quoted at £1680. We are waiting to see if the crane company gets another quick job for a large crane so that we can split the day with them.

 

The ground around the house is not flat enough for any kind of dolly and at the moment the scaffolding is there anyway.

 

One thing that no one realised until it came to install the windows is that heavy 3g sliders with a much wider frame than windows should probably have a larger tolerance built into the opening. Say 20mm above and 15-20mm at the sides.

 

The windows were ordered from the timber frame plan with 7.5mm tolerance. This has been fine with a couple being a little tight. But if you need to put the sliders in at any kind of angle to the opening they won’t fit with a very small tolerance. 

[Mr Punter]

27 minutes ago, AliG said:

The ground around the house is not flat enough for any kind of dolly and at the moment the scaffolding is there anyway.

 

Is there any point in leaving it until the scaffolding is down and the ground is flattened?

[AliG]

I have considered that and it might be what we do.

 

One problem is that they are about to start rendering the house and we couldn’t do all of that without the window in place.

 

I have been looking at window lifting robots again this morning. I reckon we could hire one for around £500 for a day. The scaffolding would still need to come down though and we’d need to create a surface that could take over 1000kg moving across it.

 

I think that no matter what we do it will end up costing £1-2000 as different ways of doing it all involve either extra machinery or extra people.  I just had a discussion with the architect where I suggested that with such a large window the easiest thing would actually be to put it into the room with the crane whilst the frame goes up but that has its own issues.

[Mr Punter]

18 minutes ago, AliG said:

the easiest thing would actually be to put it into the room with the crane whilst the frame goes up but that has its own issues.

 

I did a development of 4 storey townhouses with large windows and getting them in was a nightmare.  We did a floor at a time, craning in the pallets, then broke down the pallets to distribute the windows on that level to the correct plot before protecting and securing them.  Constant whinging from the TF company.  Not least of the issues was the TF company specified Trad Deck as their fall prevention, which looks good in theory but with windows and sliding doors in narrow plots was just crazy.

[SteamyTea]

On 09/06/2022 at 00:12, Onoff said:

bigger vacuum

Bigger than 0 Pa.

That will be less suction, not more.

[Onoff]

30 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Bigger than 0 Pa.

That will be less suction, not more.

 

I meant more suckers. Some glass lifters have the option for more, to be able to lift heavier / bigger panels. 

[craig]

An Oscar 600 offroad is about £650 a week ex VAT for the hire, a spider crane is roughly the same. An MRTA4/6 is about £350 per week ex VAT. There will also be a cost for the delivery and collection of about £150/£200 each way that will need to be factored into any cost calculations. The MRTA4 and the forklift/telehandler attachment is generally the best option and what we find tends to work best on most self builds.

 

 

But you do need to be aware of the lifting table, as 600KG weight lift is 0.5m without boom extension, you need to take this into account and the height being lifted as well (especially if lifting from outside), as you may need the bigger 800 offroad or the 1000 plus or the 1400 but you need to be really aware with these as they are solid wheels and you'll need solid ground for them to work on. In addition the weight of these needs to be taken into account, as well as the window weight.

 

It will require scaffolding amendments but these are generally used for the larger items, most other windows we will distribute to the relevant rooms and use the largest opening upstairs for example, to lift the entire pallet load to that area. As they are 1st-floor windows, which are usually packed together.

 

 

 

On heavy items, which are generally quite large in width and height, we will also use the MRTA811

 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by craig

[SimonD]

On 12/06/2022 at 19:46, Makeitstop said:

Have to admit, Simons posts always impress me.

 

Not only with the good nature and spirit he does so with, but also with the knowledge and experience he's always so ready to share in a detailed yet easy to understand way.

 

He's an asset to this board.

 

Mightily kind words indeed. Always nice to receive feedback that what I've written is helpful!

[SimonD]

On 12/06/2022 at 14:28, MikeSharp01 said:

Brilliant post - thanks for taking the time to share.

 

We are the same building it all ourselves and I don't want to employ anybody if I can help it. I did not do the roof slating as I have no head for heights, I built the roof from the inside, but everything else is just me with occasional help when I need someone on the other end of things. So I would like to have installed the windows and it may come to that if I cannot get a team I can trust to get it dead right first time and so your advice is timely.

 

Good luck. Just ask if there are any other questions and I'll try and answer as best I can.

 

I had no head for heights and was crapping myself when I was crawling all over the roof structure and roof to get it built. I've always had a problem with heights but this build has now pushed that discomfort from starting at only a few meters to when my feet are at 6.4m above ground - i.e. the height of my roof. I'd did buy and use a proper harness which helped. Now I'll quite happily hang off the scaffolding at that height which is probably the wrong thing for health and safety - Kwikstage scaffolding has great standards for shimmying up when you can't be bothered to go round to the ladder (hhme, perhaps I shouldn't admit that 🙂). One of the neighbours actually said to my wife that they were relieved when I stopped having to hang off the roof and scaffolding and they could now relax again! Strange to think self-build can actually be therapeutic! 😁

Edited June 17, 2022 by SimonD

[AliG]

On 14/06/2022 at 11:08, craig said:

An Oscar 600 offroad is about £650 a week ex VAT for the hire, a spider crane is roughly the same. An MRTA4/6 is about £350 per week ex VAT. There will also be a cost for the delivery and collection of about £150/£200 each way that will need to be factored into any cost calculations. The MRTA4 and the forklift/telehandler attachment is generally the best option and what we find tends to work best on most self builds.

 

 

But you do need to be aware of the lifting table, as 600KG weight lift is 0.5m without boom extension, you need to take this into account and the height being lifted as well (especially if lifting from outside), as you may need the bigger 800 offroad or the 1000 plus or the 1400 but you need to be really aware with these as they are solid wheels and you'll need solid ground for them to work on. In addition the weight of these needs to be taken into account, as well as the window weight.

 

It will require scaffolding amendments but these are generally used for the larger items, most other windows we will distribute to the relevant rooms and use the largest opening upstairs for example, to lift the entire pallet load to that area. As they are 1st-floor windows, which are usually packed together.

 

 

 

On heavy items, which are generally quite large in width and height, we will also use the MRTA811

 

 

 

 

 

Having looked at it again, the glazing robots work well when you have a nice flat area. The issue we have is that we have a 1-1.5m area around the house which MBC asked us to dig out then a big jump to the rest of the garden. This area also has a lot of the soil piled up ready to fill the hole back in. The glazing robots really  struggle to carry weight at the side, they are counterbalanced to carry it in front. But with the window being so wide, it is hard to get a wide enough flat space to drive it around the house.

 

Thus the crane is probably our only option, if we can get it for a half day hen the cost will be similar.

 

 

[craig]

1 hour ago, AliG said:

Thus the crane is probably our only option, if we can get it for a half day hen the cost will be similar.

 

Telehandler and vacuum sucker, you should be fine with that tbh. Unless as you mention that accessibility is an issue. Double-check whether the windows are fitted from the inside or out.

Edited June 17, 2022 by craig

[AliG]

The issue is the lack of space.

 

The window has to come through this area (outside the window fitted here)

 

 

 

 

[AliG]

I think these pictures say it all

 

Builder said it just took a couple of hours and he needs a drink.

[Russell griffiths]

I personal thought everyone was overthinking this. 

4 lads just picked mine up on suckers and walked them in, extremely heavy but nothing that they don’t do every day. 

 

[AliG]

I don’t think 4 guys can lift a 467kg window.

 

Plus it is about 500mm above ground level at the moment.

 

They did the other windows manually.

[craig]

5 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

4 lads just picked mine up on suckers and walked them in,

If around 200/250KG they will but easier to put it on a dolly and roll it into position or use a telehandler externally.

 

That’s “if” access inside is straight forward and or outside. Not only that, the amount of installers that have knackered backs as a result is immense.

 

Safety first, even if they’re lifting things manually.