Builder wanting to renegotiate terms halfway through...

[Mr Punter]

Could you suggest, a bit like @Dave Jones suggests, some fixed prices for various build stages, either labour only or all in?  With the 10% they are claiming for materials to date, maybe suggest this could be paid at the end of the job.

[nod]

2 hours ago, Tom said:

Thanks all. Interesting to hear the mix of views.

I pay the two main guys 25/hr each, then their labourer 15/hr (he makes glaciers seem like theyr're moving fast), and another younger chap who is actually very capable at 13/hr.

 

Compared to all that the 10% they want to charge on materials seems quite minor!

 

Thanks James, I might take you up on that.

 

I'm paying by the hour so any handling is on me anyway. I agree if it was a fixed price the cost of the plant would have been included, as I'm paying them per hour then I guess paying for the manitou by the hour is reasonable.

 

Yep, which is why if I'm paying them by the hour any extra handling (which there isn't) would be paid by me anyway

 

I would definitely be tempted to do this, but we are now getting to the bit of the build when the walls should go up quickly and I need their experience with working with Nudura.

 

At te end of the day, this extra 10% might cost me an additional 5-10k or something. Not a massive amount in the grand scheme of things.

It’s a tricky 

Some trades are very good value at 25

They should be putting a shift in for you 

[Thedreamer]

5 hours ago, Tom said:

16 hours ago, Thedreamer said:

I supplied 90% of materials for my self build and never heard of this 10% charge on materials.

 

From your post the materials supplied appear to be fairly standard and would be difficult to understand how they could justify a cost. I'm assuming here that they have been positioned at a spot on site which would require no extra work for them.

 

The plant by the hour seems expensive to me. Depending on the size of the builder I might even expect the plant to be included in their charge unless it was stated at the start of the job. 

I'm paying by the hour so any handling is on me anyway. I agree if it was a fixed price the cost of the plant would have been included, as I'm paying them per hour then I guess paying for the manitou by the hour is reasonable.

 

I can only go on my experience. 

 

I had to hire in a manitou for two weeks, it cost somewhere in the region of £500 to £600, from a local plant hire firm. This included delivery and collection.

 

Have you been charged time for it sitting idle on your site?

 

When I had other plant such as excavator this was the price per hour for machine and operator, but if the digger was not being used I would not expect to pay.

 

 

 

 

[Tom]

3 hours ago, nod said:

It’s a tricky 

Some trades are very good value at 25

They should be putting a shift in for you 

Hmmm, some days do seem like very light days - but that's the nature of a build I guess, things seem to go in fits and starts. Or perhaps it's just mine...

 

24 minutes ago, Thedreamer said:

 

I can only go on my experience. 

 

I had to hire in a manitou for two weeks, it cost somewhere in the region of £500 to £600, from a local plant hire firm. This included delivery and collection.

 

Have you been charged time for it sitting idle on your site?

 

When I had other plant such as excavator this was the price per hour for machine and operator, but if the digger was not being used I would not expect to pay.

 

It's charged on the hours used. It's been on site for several months give and take. Use it regularly to shift things around, been used a lot last few weeks to shift lots of soil etc. Otherwise seems quite useful to have it there I guess

[Tom]

4 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

Could you suggest, a bit like @Dave Jones suggests, some fixed prices for various build stages, either labour only or all in?  With the 10% they are claiming for materials to date, maybe suggest this could be paid at the end of the job.

Might think along these lines, though any fixed price is definitely going to be at a premium, especially if they feel they have some room to make up if they have not made enough up until now. Could suggest paying the 10% at the end - then this puts me in a good position come snagging etc

[Dave Jones]

1 hour ago, Tom said:

Might think along these lines, though any fixed price is definitely going to be at a premium, especially if they feel they have some room to make up if they have not made enough up until now. Could suggest paying the 10% at the end - then this puts me in a good position come snagging etc

 

look, the builder has highlighted he needs more money.

 

dayrate let alone hourly  is amateur hour at best of times. What does your QS come in at ? 

 

If the work is ok Incentive the builder to stay and finish.

 

or not.

 

[Makeitstop]

You say these guys have experience of your type of build, and yet, they've apparently come to the realization that they've "underquoted" you. 

 

Now, they want to take a bite of savings you've "already" made from your own efforts towards material cost efficiency,  when in fact, that option was agreed with them from the outset.

 

As has been suggested, I would have seriously deep concerns trusting them from here on in, either in their "experience" or ethics.

 

If you can afford to bump them, I'd be doing just that.

 

Having said that, it may well be worth a discussion first, with a view to counter their suggestions with your own. Others here will no doubt offer all sorts of sound advice and various options on how to approach it.

 

I hope it works out well no matter what, because it sounds disappointingly stressful.  

 

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Makeitstop

[saveasteading]

30 minutes ago, Makeitstop said:

underquoted

Estimating the cost of construction is very difficult, and a special (and underrated) skill, and it is easy to miss out an item or underestimate the difficulty.

But add contingencies and you are not cheapest and lose the job.

This may be genuine, in which case lucky they didn't disapppear at last payment.

On the other hand there are chancers.

We here cannot judge.

[Makeitstop]

Yep, totally appreciate that, but surely a better way to bring up concerns with the client is to have an open frank conversation about how the work is looking as though it'll end up costing your business, rather than showing it profit, and suggest a possible resolution going forward.

 

Requesting that the client not only cut you in on, but backdate that percentage cut of some saving they have made through shrewd sourcing / purchasing sounds well off to me. Arguabaly, from that alone I'd be wondering how ethical they were. 

 

  

Edited September 22, 2021 by Makeitstop

[Tom]

22 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Estimating the cost of construction is very difficult, and a special (and underrated) skill, and it is easy to miss out an item or underestimate the difficulty.

 

Sure, but the thing is they haven't quoted - I'm paying by the hour: however difficult or long it takes I'm paying them come rain or shine! No risk to them, all the risk on me.

 

So, update: no one turned up yesterday. Got a message to call one of them in the morning but got no answer. Finally a call from them this morning: "we're leaving your build, mate".

 

He tried to throw all sorts of excuses at me but at the end of the day it's a complicated, difficult build - yes, taking more time (which I'm paying for) but it actually involves some brainpower. Easier to jump ship and build a box with 4 equal sides - which is what the've done.

 

I called the more senior of the two, and after some negotiation they have agreed to come back and finish the nudura walls and the floors - but of course fit this in around the garage they are now building. Oh, and 10% on everything going forward (only concrete really) - but they want this backdated to cover the stuff I bought before too (1.5k approx).

 

We have no option really. We need it done. We can't wait for another Nudura specialist to become available (yes, it's a one day course I know, but that doesn't mean you can actually build a house after watching a few PowerPoint presentations).

 

This level of unprofessionalism I find staggering, but I guess not paricularly unheard of. I will not be leaving a good review on Tripadvisor.

 

 

[Moonshine]

1 hour ago, Tom said:

We can't wait for another Nudura specialist to become available

 

Have you tried Tim at the Fell partnership (www.thefellpartnership.co.uk)

 

I was looking down the route of Nudura and he supplied me with a list of approved local builders.

 

Maybe he can point you in the direction of some that you can use instead of these guys

[recoveringbuilder]

1 hour ago, Tom said:

 

Sure, but the thing is they haven't quoted - I'm paying by the hour: however difficult or long it takes I'm paying them come rain or shine! No risk to them, all the risk on me.

 

So, update: no one turned up yesterday. Got a message to call one of them in the morning but got no answer. Finally a call from them this morning: "we're leaving your build, mate".

 

He tried to throw all sorts of excuses at me but at the end of the day it's a complicated, difficult build - yes, taking more time (which I'm paying for) but it actually involves some brainpower. Easier to jump ship and build a box with 4 equal sides - which is what the've done.

 

I called the more senior of the two, and after some negotiation they have agreed to come back and finish the nudura walls and the floors - but of course fit this in around the garage they are now building. Oh, and 10% on everything going forward (only concrete really) - but they want this backdated to cover the stuff I bought before too (1.5k approx).

 

We have no option really. We need it done. We can't wait for another Nudura specialist to become available (yes, it's a one day course I know, but that doesn't mean you can actually build a house after watching a few PowerPoint presentations).

 

This level of unprofessionalism I find staggering, but I guess not paricularly unheard of. I will not be leaving a good review on Tripadvisor.

 

 

I would be very wary of letting them continue, as you have said it’s quite a complicated build and they didn’t have anything to loose being paid on an hourly basis, it was going to end up costing you whatever length of time it took which makes me wonder why they didn’t want to come back?! I hope you don’t live to regret your decision 

[Tom]

30 minutes ago, Moonshine said:

 

Have you tried Tim at the Fell partnership (www.thefellpartnership.co.uk)

 

I was looking down the route of Nudura and he supplied me with a list of approved local builders.

 

Maybe he can point you in the direction of some that you can use instead of these guys

Yep, bought our blocks from Tim - and our builder is one of the ones on his list.

 

19 minutes ago, recoveringbuilder said:

I hope you don’t live to regret your decision 

Same here!

I'm going to pay them monthly, and withold the last month until it's all done to an acceptable standard.

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, Tom said:

builder is one of the ones on his list

Have you contacted Nudura? The market is v competitive and reputation is crucial.

Perhaps they can help to:

Review your contractor's progress and advise them to get on with it or you to sack them.

Review them with consideration to taking off the list

Suggest another contractor and be intermediary...nobody likes picking up half a job but nudura could explain.

 

I have never used any of these systems, but have taken a close interest.

I dont think it is difficult, but your contractor does.

 

1 hour ago, Tom said:

pay them monthly

Monthly. One way to chase a little contractor off.

And how much work have they yet to do? I was assuming you were nearly there...sounds not.

[ianfish]

Bin them off.

[NickK]

I’m new to this topic but it all sounds so frustrating. What planet do these people live on? It’s like if a surgeon starts an op and halfway through, he’s like feck this. It’s more difficult than I though. I’m off to ask for more money. Mind blown 

Edited September 23, 2021 by NickK

[Makeitstop]

Piss poor state of affairs.

 

I dont have any idea what this sort of crap would do my  head.

 

Good luck Tom. I hope it all works out well when you are past the current shit shower you are having to tolerate.

[Roundtuit]

Nothing to add but 'good luck!', and that I hope karma works it's magic. ?

[Iceverge]

@Tom

 

You have my sympathy. It's a rubbish situation to be in. 

 

It sounds like you're in need of a more conventional builder. Get some solid detailed plans ready, get in touch with as many of them as you can. Get good references. Pick the best and sign a contract. 

 

However you'll have to wait for the good guys and you'll have to pay them.  

 

The current bunch probably aren't bad guys. Just a bit boyscoutish. Unwilling to commit to a proper contract. Unable to cost a project properly, and include rates for plant hire etc.

 

Unable to straightforwardly say they've underpriced the project, take the hit on works to date and up the rates for the remainder. 

 

Out of interest what factors swing you towards the current builders? Time/cost? 

 

 

 

 

[saveasteading]

Last thought?

List why you should keep them on,  against why you 'let them go'.

 

My feeling is that the numbers may be similar but the 'keep' ones won't be as significant as the 'go' ones.

 

Eg. Will this happen again, do they know what they are doing and what if it falls down when they pour the concrete? 

 

No more pay until sure you have not overpaid already.

[SteamyTea]

On 23/09/2021 at 17:08, Tom said:

Yep, bought our blocks from Tim - and our builder is one of the ones on his list.

Either not on the list for much longer, or the list is just his mates numbers.

Hopefully you will publish the names and two people's (Tim and his not builder mate) names can be added to another list of people to avoid.

 

 

[Tom]

I feel I shouldn't do anything while I'm still feeling so livid, Steamy. I'll see what the next few months bring, who knows they might actually hurry up and want to get it done and on to easier jobs - so might work out better in the end. I'm more than willing to give impartial, candid advice to anyone looking at doing a Nudura build in the south west any time soon!

[Tom]

On 23/09/2021 at 23:05, saveasteading said:

Eg. Will this happen again, do they know what they are doing and what if it falls down when they pour the concrete? 

 

No more pay until sure you have not overpaid already.

 

Yep, gonna pay monthly rather than weekly - and withold the last until I'm - and whoever I bring in to do the roof - are satisfied.

[Tom]

Builders back on site today. Putting in the rebar mesh ready for the pour of the floors. What a sh*t show. They started to stack it all up ignoring the flying ends etc, so in some areas there was a risk of the concrete cover being too thin - and even some rebar sticking out. Oh, and they managed to tear the DPM in about a dozen places - which I have just gone round repairing (resulting in me gashing my thumb quite deeply). That's of course not counting the DPM that was laid too low along one entire wall so it won't even reach the top of the slab. FFS.

Not a good day! Need some positives here. Lasagne now, so there is that I guess...

[saveasteading]

Isn't looking better then. How many months of this to come?