getting initial concept ideas from architect

[shetland]

Brand new member, unable to find a similar post about this but apologies if its there! In a nutshell, I'm asking whether we should be able to get idea/concept sketches or drawings from architects before they are contracted, as in our case, its their ideas for the house that will probably decide who we employ.

 

We are right at the beginning of renovating our house; it has had some ridiculous extensions over the years (which probably need knocking down and replacing) and bizarre alterations inside that just need remedied, but its such an unusual layout and plot that we cannot even begin to come up with ideas on what to do. There must be dozens of different ways to adapt and/or extend the house as there is sizable garden space on 3 sides (not to mention the existing extensions that could be renovated, replaced as-is, or completely destroyed and an entirely new extension layout built).

We decided that in this case, an architect would be required, simply to draw on their experience and visualisation skills/knowledge, and have them give us some ideas on redesign. 

 

this is the brief we have to present to architects.. I imagine its an architects worst nightmare. we have cash funds that will cover any work, and can comfortably remorgage to release more funds if the project was good enough. 

We met three architects in February who came recommended and all said they could come up with some ideas for us, but in fact all we have been sent are outlines of their fee structure. i had thought they would discuss some ideas on how to approach the renovation initially.

Is this the normal way for engaging an architect, that you have to just get a 'feel' for them from their previous work etc and engage them with no idea what they can offer? Should we be able to ask for some ideas first, or do they protect these in case we just take the concepts and use someone else/self design etc? (or are they just not interested in the work and trying to put us off gently?)

can anyone offer some insight, or a better way for us to approach this?!

Many thanks if you can help.

[markc]

Unless the project is high value then you are unlikely to get Arch`s competing for the project and willing to put time and effort into concept for free.

You could approach one or two and agree a cost for concept if you decide not to go with them.

[jack]

Given the complexity of the situation, I wouldn't expect anything for free (although I'm sure a couple of the 6 or 8 architects we spoke with provides some back-of-a-napkin type sketches with their quotes).

 

It sounds like you have a decent budget, so why not pay each of them to spend half a day thinking and sketching out some really rough ideas for you to consider? I suspect some architects would be quite interested in being paid to do a morning's creative thinking and doodling without having to get too bogged down in details.

[the_r_sole]

Absolutely not! The real value in what an architect does is the concept stage, outputting planning drawings and warrant drawings is a pretty mechanical process but all the value is created and added at design stage.

We are some times asked to do some initial concept work on bigger jobs but we'll always ask for a fee. Working with people to design their home, is all about trying to understand what the client wants, what their style is etc, what an architect has done previously isn't particularly relevant to your specific situation unless you are approaching architects who you want to deliver something with their specific style which you will fit your lifestyle around.

Why would I spend hours and hours trying to work through concepts for your project in the hope that we might get paid for churning out drawings?

We generally have a first meeting for free to see if it might be a good fit but don't expect anyone to give the ideas away for free, that's the one unique thing every designer has.

[nod]

29 minutes ago, the_r_sole said:

Absolutely not! The real value in what an architect does is the concept stage, outputting planning drawings and warrant drawings is a pretty mechanical process but all the value is created and added at design stage.

We are some times asked to do some initial concept work on bigger jobs but we'll always ask for a fee. Working with people to design their home, is all about trying to understand what the client wants, what their style is etc, what an architect has done previously isn't particularly relevant to your specific situation unless you are approaching architects who you want to deliver something with their specific style which you will fit your lifestyle around.

Why would I spend hours and hours trying to work through concepts for your project in the hope that we might get paid for churning out drawings?

We generally have a first meeting for free to see if it might be a good fit but don't expect anyone to give the ideas away for free, that's the one unique thing every designer has.

Yep nothing is free

You can’t even get a kitchen sketch from Wickes without placing an order first 

[ToughButterCup]

1 hour ago, shetland said:

... I'm asking whether we should be able to get idea/concept sketches or drawings from architects before they are contracted, ...

 

No.

Here's our architect's pricing structure.

 

And here's what I hope will be a useful checklist... a starting point for your own ideas.

Good luck.

[shetland]

Many thanks for the insights.. its really helping to pinpoint the problems. 

 

I'm realising that concept sketches or drawings were the wrong words to use.. (in my field, any concept sketch is just hand-drawn in the meeting to give the client a visual as we talk). To be clear, I am not wanting anything that involves days of work!

 

 When i said 'concept sketches' I was thinking back-of-the-envolope scribbles with a 5 minute discussion, giving very broad strokes about what might work, what their initial instinct is to do. 

 

 "perhaps we could open ~that~ wall and build ~this~ here." that sort of discussion.  I hear of friends who chose their architects on them 'having such  clever ideas for the ground floor layout' etc.. so this seemed like the normal way to proceed. (one of the architects we met was specifically recommended to us because of his clever solutions to a problem).

 

If you were in my shoes, how would you decide between architects? I'm not giving them a design brief, i have a design problem and I'm requiring some idea that their skill will produce a good solution. should i be asking for a  5 minute broad-strokes concept,  or is the only answer to buy a half day of jottings?

 

thanks again!

 

[ToughButterCup]

5 minutes ago, shetland said:

...

If you were in my shoes, how would you decide between architects?

...

 

• Is an architect appropriate at this stage of your project? Will a Planning Consultant do?
• Do you have to brief an architect? Will an Architectural Technician do?
• Consider doing some of the designing yourself or perhaps a CAD Technician
• Is an architect working for a house manufacturer appropriate for your build?
• Research suitable architects: websites, relevant journals
• Make a long-list of possible companies
• Check each architects credentials here
• Is the architect bankrupt?
• Check the architects Indemnity Insurance
• Make initial contact; listen
• Ask for examples of existing work; visit / drive by
• Company brochure
• Work up a brief.
• Consider budget and don’t forget VAT
• Will the architect of choice actually do the work?
• Does ecology come into the mix somewhere? Time scales.
• Refine your brief, and write up. One side of A5.
• Send it to the architect in advance of your meeting
• List the questions you want to ask, and refer to the list during the meeting
• Meeting: has the architect read the brief?
• Does the architect listen?
• Is the architect merely an “Educated Artist”?
• What does the architect think of as the scope of his / her work?
• Clarity about Extras and Incidentals
• Does the chemistry work?
• Ask for references.
• Visit / ring/ talk to them
• Decide

 

[the_r_sole]

1 minute ago, shetland said:

Many thanks for the insights.. its really helping to pinpoint the problems. 

 

I'm realising that concept sketches or drawings were the wrong words to use.. (in my field, any concept sketch is just hand-drawn in the meeting to give the client a visual as we talk). To be clear, I am not wanting anything that involves days of work!

 

 When i said 'concept sketches' I was thinking back-of-the-envolope scribbles with a 5 minute discussion, giving very broad strokes about what might work, what their initial instinct is to do. 

 

 "perhaps we could open ~that~ wall and build ~this~ here." that sort of discussion.  I hear of friends who chose their architects on them 'having such  clever ideas for the ground floor layout' etc.. so this seemed like the normal way to proceed. (one of the architects we met was specifically recommended to us because of his clever solutions to a problem).

 

If you were in my shoes, how would you decide between architects? I'm not giving them a design brief, i have a design problem and I'm requiring some idea that their skill will produce a good solution. should i be asking for a  5 minute broad-strokes concept,  or is the only answer to buy a half day of jottings?

 

thanks again!

 

 

that's what a concept sketch is for an architect too - but it's where all the skill is, I can knock out a sketch in 5 mins but that's because of the years of experience i have behind me working on hundreds of projects, that's what you're paying for, the ability of the architect to interpret your desires into a built form - when I have initial conversations with clients I'll talk around the options, where you might look at alterations etc but they're essentially thinking out loud.

 

You're asking architects to give your their thoughts on the a design so you can decide whether to give them a job or not. I spend hours and hours with clients at the start of a job before any drawing is done, asking them questions and understanding what they want from us, surveying the buildings/site etc all of that needs to be done before you can anything meaningful at all. If you want ideas you should commission a measured survey and provide it to some architects and pay them for their time - people seem to forget that there's a huge amount of thinking time away from drawings to get ideas out, the more skilful you are, the quicker that should be but it's YOUR home - so asking someone to chuck an idea out without spending any time on it, not spending ay time asking you questions and somehow hoping that it might suit YOUR exact needs is a very flawed approach

[ToughButterCup]

10 minutes ago, the_r_sole said:

... not spending ay time asking you questions and somehow hoping that it might suit YOUR exact needs is a very flawed approach

 

Guesswork, in fact.

[Bitpipe]

1 hour ago, shetland said:

Many thanks for the insights.. its really helping to pinpoint the problems. 

 

I'm realising that concept sketches or drawings were the wrong words to use.. (in my field, any concept sketch is just hand-drawn in the meeting to give the client a visual as we talk). To be clear, I am not wanting anything that involves days of work!

 

 When i said 'concept sketches' I was thinking back-of-the-envolope scribbles with a 5 minute discussion, giving very broad strokes about what might work, what their initial instinct is to do. 

 

 "perhaps we could open ~that~ wall and build ~this~ here." that sort of discussion.  I hear of friends who chose their architects on them 'having such  clever ideas for the ground floor layout' etc.. so this seemed like the normal way to proceed. (one of the architects we met was specifically recommended to us because of his clever solutions to a problem).

 

If you were in my shoes, how would you decide between architects? I'm not giving them a design brief, i have a design problem and I'm requiring some idea that their skill will produce a good solution. should i be asking for a  5 minute broad-strokes concept,  or is the only answer to buy a half day of jottings?

 

thanks again!

 

 

We found that most architects would give an initial hour or so to come to site, have an initial chat about what you think you want to achieve and get a feel for the project. Some would do a few thumbnail sketches of options to illustrate their thinking but nothing really usable  - indeed, we found some years later and could not even recall what they were trying to say.

 

It was clear that this was a speed date and if there was 'chemistry' then to progress to concept sketches, they would need to be retained and we would be charged for the next stage including acquiring the local survey 'tile' (i.e. the formal to scale drawing of what was currently on site) and overlay this with a few scheme ideas and then choose one to take further to elevations, floor layouts, dimensions etc.

 

The next fee stage was commissioning a proper site survey  and moving to a formal cad representation with associated design statements, traffic input etc to conclude with a planning submission.

 

Thereafter is was construction drawings and tender management but at that point we parted company on good terms and did our own PM.  

[Mr Punter]

I think if you have a shortlist of, say, 3 architects and their overall hourly rates look acceptable it may be worth asking each of them to spend 1.5 hours on a rough sketch proposal and paying them at their hourly rate to do so.

 

You will need to give them a short brief saying what you want to achieve, together with some existing plans.

[HerbJ]

Many architects participate in a "Architect in the house" charity scheme with association with RIBA. I think it is normally in Autumn every year, but someone may have better up-to-date info.

 

For £40( ?)  gift to the designated charity, participating architects give 1 hours free consultation. The participating architects get booked up fairly quickly....SWMBO and  I  used this scheme many years ago for getting some ideas for an extension that we could not get our heads around. The architect suggested and sketched a very good option and we engaged him to get the scheme through planning. We were very happy with the outcome

 

It's worth following up if it fits with your timescales and there are local architects participating in your area.

. 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by HerbJ

[Gone West]

27 minutes ago, HerbJ said:

Many architects participate in a "Architect in the house" charity scheme with association with RIBA. I think it is normally in Autumn every year, but someone may have better up-to-date info.

I used that scheme for my initial designs but that was eleven to twelve years ago, don't know if they still do it.

[ToughButterCup]

17 hours ago, Bitpipe said:

....

It was clear that this was a speed date and if there was 'chemistry' then to progress to (censored)

...

I had you down as a clean livin' kinda guy. Jus' shows how wrong I can be.  

[RK6]

This topic has been really useful. Thanks Op! 
 

I have a few potential architects shortlisted, and ready to brief. My plan (at least in my head) is to pay each firm to run through the initial design phase with me, and then use both the experience of working with them, and the design ideas they come up with, to decide which org to marry.  
 

Is that a reasonable approach? 

[MikeSharp01]

1 hour ago, RK6 said:

Is that a reasonable approach?

You will be throwing away two out of three lots of work and you might find yourself in the difficult position of wanting ideas from each in the final design and asking one of them to take ideas from others forward as part of the final package which may be a difficult fit. We tackled it slightly differently, we asked our chosen architect to work up three schemes for the project and when we combined aspects of them we had no problems - we loved the tower concept from one, the room layout from another.

 

We chose our architect by giving each of the shortlisted ones a pack of our expectations including RED lines, a mood board, our budget, our expectations of self building - IE we wanted to be able to do as much of the work as we could, eco desires, our requirements on drawing formats / availability / usage rights and process outline based on the RIBA phases (where we mentioned the 3 schemes thinking) with go / no go points along the way. We then met each 'down the pub' and after receiving fee proposals we tidied up loose ends with each and made our choice. It worked out well I think as every time I stand in the structure, which is now up and going through cladding before we start work on the inside for real, I get a happy feeling about the way it works.

 

PS in our case the Structural Engineer was also part of the package as our chosen architect wanted us to use someone they had worked with elsewhere.

[Temp]

I wrote to three with details of our plot and what we were looking to build (eg 5 bed with double garage) asking for quotes. One of them went to the trouble of going  to the plot and sent us some pen and water colour  sketches of his thoughts on the house. He got the job.

[Ferdinand]

I think you should start with your requirements.

 

That is a 1-2 page memo with your requirements - that is what the house must do for you.  Space, rooms, people who will live there, grannexe, garden areas, indoors/outoors lifestyle, sitting areas outside, and so on. 

 

Perhaps styles you like etc.

 

That will give your As things to chew on, and clarify your thinking.

 

If you ask As to give you something substantive, then you will have to pay for time, and probably be bound to pay if you use someone else to do their concept.

 

Best of luck.

Ferdinand

 

[RK6]

Thanks everyone. That’s really helpful feedback. 
 

I don’t plan to build a house every few years, so this build is a huge deal for me, which is why I figured spending more in the initial design phase by effectively “wasting” 2 sets of drafts would be worth it to figure out which firm best suits my brief, and can do most justice to the plot. 
 

I didn’t consider the dynamic of trying to take ideas from one and push them into another, I can definitely see how that would cause problems right off the bat. 
 

Liking the idea of getting a single architect to draw up multiple designs. That could be a solid compromise. Just means I need to pick the right firm at the offset! 

[Thorfun]

we chose the architect that we thought we'd be happy to work with after meeting them all. worked out great! portfolio and costs were also a consideration but I think the 'chemistry' that @Bitpipe was talking about is of paramount importance.

[Temp]

Best thing our architect did was show me his barn conversion and propose a slightly unusual layout.  Our front door opens into a small square hallway but to get to the living room and kitchen you through a door and across the end of the dining room which has the stairs in it and a full height window/gallery landing.

 

On the negative side our house had to be a 1.5 storey with quite a few triangular dormers/gables which added complexity and cost to the roof.

 

 

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, RK6 said:

the dynamic of trying to take ideas from one and push them into another,

But you cannot avoid doing it. You cannot forget a good idea once you have heard it.

I had a client who did this and couldn't see that it was a problem. He showed me the competitor's drawing and I could see my (unmistakeable) ideas on it. 

I walked away, the others got the work, and some things went rather wrong...tough.

 

Also clients who wanted free design. Most understand the problem when explained.

To put it into context, as already stated above, the original idea can be the most important thing. As an example, one client, with their Architect in the room, asked if we could develop the design and build for a certain price.

I said, yes  but not like that. I was straight and said I wouldn't tell them at this stage. They nodded to each other and said we were not competing but negotiating, based on a reference. With trust you proceed, and we did. (turning the building 90 degrees saved 50% for complex reasons, plus other stuff.)

 

I would always  talk through a project on the phone, but only agree to meet half of the enquirers, then only proceed any further with about half of them after meeting. I reckon the reason your contacts have not come back is along these lines....you have put them off by asking for free design.

Can I suggest that any architect that says yes to your original terms is not the one you need, and will cost you much more in the long run.

Even find references and approach just one.....it is a bold step but it can work.

One more warning. some architects will quote low but exclude a lot, then you have to pay for all sorts of surveys and specialities. a list of exclusions is essential.

AND although you can seldom do anything about it, ask for a guide price to total cost or instruct your strict construction budget. It will go over, but maybe will be watched better.

Shockingly: I once told a potential client's architect that his design was impossible for the budget, and he said 'don' worry, the client always finds more money'. I walked away....it cost a lot more.

Good luck with your new, softer approach.

[RK6]

50 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

But you cannot avoid doing it. You cannot forget a good idea once you have heard it.

I had a client who did this and couldn't see that it was a problem. He showed me the competitor's drawing and I could see my (unmistakeable) ideas on it. 

I walked away, the others got the work, and some things went rather wrong...tough.

 

Also clients who wanted free design. Most understand the problem when explained.

To put it into context, as already stated above, the original idea can be the most important thing. As an example, one client, with their Architect in the room, asked if we could develop the design and build for a certain price.

I said, yes  but not like that. I was straight and said I wouldn't tell them at this stage. They nodded to each other and said we were not competing but negotiating, based on a reference. With trust you proceed, and we did. (turning the building 90 degrees saved 50% for complex reasons, plus other stuff.)

 

I would always  talk through a project on the phone, but only agree to meet half of the enquirers, then only proceed any further with about half of them after meeting. I reckon the reason your contacts have not come back is along these lines....you have put them off by asking for free design.

Can I suggest that any architect that says yes to your original terms is not the one you need, and will cost you much more in the long run.

Even find references and approach just one.....it is a bold step but it can work.

One more warning. some architects will quote low but exclude a lot, then you have to pay for all sorts of surveys and specialities. a list of exclusions is essential.

AND although you can seldom do anything about it, ask for a guide price to total cost or instruct your strict construction budget. It will go over, but maybe will be watched better.

Shockingly: I once told a potential client's architect that his design was impossible for the budget, and he said 'don' worry, the client always finds more money'. I walked away....it cost a lot more.

Good luck with your new, softer approach.

 

To be completely clear, I haven't asked anyone for a free design. Wouldn't dream of doing so -- guessing you mixed me up with Op, who was hoping for a quick back of the fag packet sketch from architects he was speaking to. 

 

My plan was to give 3 architects a budget of say 5k each to come up with their interpretation of my brief, and then use their outputs to pick a design and architect that felt right. 

 

I get what you're saying about pulling ideas from one, and if I were an architect, I would react the same way you explained, so that rules out my original competitive design phase idea. 

Edited August 6, 2021 by RK6

[Thorfun]

12 minutes ago, RK6 said:

My plan was to give 3 architects a budget of say 5k each to come up with their interpretation of my brief, and then use their outputs to pick a design and architect that felt right. 

rather than doing that might it be better to go with your gut feeling and the 'chemistry' you have with one of them and give them the opportunity to come up with a few designs. if after that concept stage you don't really like what they've done then just explain it all and cut your loses and move on to another one. that way it saves you £10k and a whole lot of hassle with other design ideas fitting into the chosen ones as discussed above.

 

but I think you'll find that if you've done your homework then your original chosen architect won't be a million miles away after initial concept sketches and even if you are then a few quick discussions with them and they'll come up with some changes. that happened with us, his first sketches weren't what we wanted at all. but after a quick meeting we discussed the bits we liked and didn't from each of the concepts and he came up with something we loved.