AliG Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 (edited) Hi, I had a guy out this morning to locate the pipes that I may have mentioned on a previous thread. The pipes are as shown on our title map which is approx 1-1.5m away from where they show on the utility map. As I was almost certain this was where they were due to the map plus the position of markers above ground I have worked on a solution to get around this. The guy was also able to tell me that the top of the pipe is just over 1m deep. Would it be doable to get a couple of guys out to dig a hole this deep by hand to locate the exact top of the pipe? I am going to need to know the exact position as even 100mm will make a difference. Edited March 13, 2021 by AliG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamieled Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 It would, though obviously how long it takes will be a bit dependent on how hard the ground is but I've dug bigger holes in a day. Presumably you have some idea from trial pits? The other thing to consider is the h+s aspect. If you're just employing two guys to dig a hole and you direct them you need to be mindful of the risk of one of them in there and the sides collapsing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonshine Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 Yes, though it will depend on the soil on how easy it is. Get a pair of digging spoons https://www.toolstation.com/roughneck-post-hole-digger/p55706 The other week I had to get soil samples from a metre below ground. In Sandy soil I was able to get 3 samples in an hour. Buy these and dig a linear trench yourself 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan52 Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 Will be doable depending on what the ground is like. If it's stiff clay the banks will stay vertical no bother. If there is a lot of sand and silt and a high water table it will end up a very wide hole as the banks will collapse. You can use post hole digger in an opening 300mm square and just use a spade to chop it up and the past hole digger to lift the spoil out. When I was doing boreholes each hole had to be dug 1.2m before you started just incase there was any services there. If you hit anything after that then the insurance covered it. Anything before that and you did. Took maybe 30 mins each hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliG Posted March 13, 2021 Author Share Posted March 13, 2021 The ground report nearby describes it as 0.4m of topsoil then medium strength gravelly clay. There are no water table issues. I need to investigate how to use the digging spoons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonshine Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 1 minute ago, AliG said: I need to investigate how to use the digging spoons. That is the funniest thing I have read all week ??? It isn't rocket science. It will be tough going through clay, and wet clay will get stuck to the blades. Just be careful not to damage the pipe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliG Posted March 13, 2021 Author Share Posted March 13, 2021 7 minutes ago, Moonshine said: Just be careful not to damage the pipe. It is a 16inch cast iron pipe with 1inch thick walls. It would seem very difficult to damage that digging by hand, but the method suggested by the water company suggests it is actually made of glass! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan52 Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 17 minutes ago, AliG said: The ground report nearby describes it as 0.4m of topsoil then medium strength gravelly clay. There are no water table issues. I need to investigate how to use the digging spoons. You just stab them into the hole, open them up and it closes at the bottom and lift it out. It's no NASA type operation. If it's very stiff clay the Spade will break it up first. You will know if it's been dug through before to put the pipe in as the spoil will be all mixed up and not compact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliG Posted March 13, 2021 Author Share Posted March 13, 2021 15 minutes ago, Moonshine said: That is the funniest thing I have read all week ??? It isn't rocket science. I had genuinely never seen one but it seems pretty straightforward. Presumably digging a larger hole in the top solid then down with the post digger from there is the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 11 minutes ago, AliG said: It is a 16inch cast iron pipe with 1inch thick walls. It would seem very difficult to damage that digging by hand, but the method suggested by the water company suggests it is actually made of glass! Pick axe swung properly will punch a hole in 1” cast iron .... and the water pressure will make it come back at speed !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliG Posted March 13, 2021 Author Share Posted March 13, 2021 5 minutes ago, PeterW said: Pick axe swung properly will punch a hole in 1” cast iron OK, but I was thinking more shovels than a pick axe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 1 hour ago, AliG said: ... Would it be doable to get a couple of guys out to dig a hole this deep by hand to locate the exact top of the pipe? ... Yes. Here's the evidence. Just over 3 meters in one place. Glad most of it was clay but...... 31 cubic meters by hand during lockdown 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oz07 Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 C'mon @AliG I know you jocks are tight but a man with a house as big as yours getting his hands dirty digging a hole like this?! Can't you get a local smackhead on the job. Is @ToughButterCup young strapping labourer available 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliG Posted March 13, 2021 Author Share Posted March 13, 2021 22 minutes ago, Oz07 said: C'mon @AliG I know you jocks are tight but a man with a house as big as yours getting his hands dirty digging a hole like this?! Can't you get a local smackhead on the job. Is @ToughButterCup young strapping labourer available Actually the biggest issue is that my wife complains if I spend too much time helping my parents. I am going to call the guy who does our garden and see if he knows someone, otherwise I will try the builder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 I would say do it. It is not difficult unless like our land you find a "stone" that is simply too big to lift by hand. Talk of using hole diggers suggests you are thinking of digging a very narrow "fence post" hole. Don't. What if you miss the pipe? Narrow holes are the hardest to dig, which is why you need those gadgets to get the soil out, and a real pain when you find a big stone. Instead dig a large enough hole to stand in and dig down, so say 1 metre square. Much easier to dig with just a shovel and if you hit hard ground, break it up with a fork first. a larger hole means more chance of actually finding the pipe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 Yes. I had to dig a hole to expose the bottom of the foundations to satisfy the SE. I didn’t know how deep the foundations were so armed with a shovel I started to dig down and down. I got to about 5 foot down myself before I decided that I couldn’t go any deeper and got someone in to finish it off. The foundations ended up being 2 metres deep so I could probably have finished it myself but I was worried about being on my own in a hole deeper than I was tall. Baring in mind that I had never dug to this extent before and nor did I have suitable tools. A metre or so should be easy for guys that are used to it and have the right tools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riv990 Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 Could try the local grave digger they are the experts at neat holes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliG Posted March 13, 2021 Author Share Posted March 13, 2021 52 minutes ago, ProDave said: I would say do it. It is not difficult unless like our land you find a "stone" that is simply too big to lift by hand. Talk of using hole diggers suggests you are thinking of digging a very narrow "fence post" hole. Don't. What if you miss the pipe? Narrow holes are the hardest to dig, which is why you need those gadgets to get the soil out, and a real pain when you find a big stone. Instead dig a large enough hole to stand in and dig down, so say 1 metre square. Much easier to dig with just a shovel and if you hit hard ground, break it up with a fork first. a larger hole means more chance of actually finding the pipe. We know where the pipe is from a survey this morning to within maybe plus or minus 100mm. Considering it is 400mm wide we should hit it. But I think you are right on the 1m square hole. It might be easier to place the pipe with this size of hole. Off to investigate if I can get someone to do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpd Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 Spent half my life digging holes in the ground and 1m deep is easy, as others have said for a very neat hole the post hole shovels are great but not worth buying them if it’s in some rough ground and you don’t already have a set. It should take one person about 1-2 hours to dig the hole with the ground conditions you have mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliG Posted March 13, 2021 Author Share Posted March 13, 2021 I have examined Scottish Water's policies and they suggest that no one can do any work above their pipes without their permission. It is not clear to me how enforceable this is and I need to consider the likelihood of upsetting them versus the speed of just getting it done. Every single person I have spoken to immediately says that they are the worst company to deal with once I mention who it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 28 minutes ago, AliG said: It is not clear to me how enforceable this is how the hell are they going to know?. find it and cover the hole up (to stop someone falling in it) or put a post in the ground to mark it and fill the hole in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyT Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 Come on mate, just get a spade and start digging Dig the hole, and cover with a sheet of 18mm plywood braced with 2x2 underneath to stop fatties going through the 18mm and plop a cone on top ir dig the hole and fit 3 heras fence panels around. either measure will stop morons falling down hole while you take it further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 2 hours ago, AliG said: I have examined Scottish Water's policies and they suggest that no one can do any work above their pipes without their permission. Ask for forgiveness later. They’ve mandated a distance that you have to comply with but presumably not said that you can’t investigate where the pipes are? Not many people would go to the bother of reading through a policy document before digging a hole on their own land. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 If they won't let you dig carefully by hand to locate it, then the onus should be on them to locate it precisely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceverge Posted March 14, 2021 Share Posted March 14, 2021 390m apparently ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodingdean_Water_Well#:~:text=The Woodingdean Water Well is,later%2C on 16 March 1862. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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