Meter Readings Panic and Electricity Costs

[canalsiderenovation]

33 minutes ago, TonyT said:

Best get the current set up working first before the diverter is added into the mix, further complicating the set up/ energy consumption tracking process

 

 

Unfortunately we don't have any choice. The electrician is back for two days to finish off before he goes into hospital for an operation and then won't be working for 12 weeks!

 

@AliG the only thing on our tank that resembles your picture is this below wired into the heat pump and there is no temperature dial and I've literally had a torch all round the tank. Is it possible this is set by the heat pump?

 

 

On the plus it does seem like since the excessive unit consumption on the immersion at some point between yesterday and 3:30pm today now seems to be likely to have been the legionella cycle as having just now taken another reading  the immersion meter reading is the same as 3:30 so I'm hopeful that now I've deactivated it, it won't happen again. I'll keep monitoring that.

Edited January 19, 2021 by canalsiderenovation

[TonyT]

Watch the video I sent a little while ago it explains all

[canalsiderenovation]

1 hour ago, newhome said:

I’ve been considering an ASHP (I have 3 recent quotes) but having read your thread and numerous other similar threads on a heat pump forum I’m a bit put off by the potential for large running costs and the relative complexity. 
 

With your temperature at 19 degrees that’s probably the difference between feeling completely comfortable in a tee shirt vs needing to wear something a bit thicker when sitting around. IMO one of the best inventions known to (wo)man is the heated throw. Totally luxurious when it’s a bit chilly indoors in the months when the heating isn’t on, and also great in winter when you want a bit more warmth. Unfortunately my rescue dog who until 2 months ago hadn’t even been in a house has taken a great liking to mine and has claimed it as his own ??

 

 

 

I am a little disappointed I have to say but this may be initial teething problems. With no mains gas, ground source heat pump not an option and only having the choice of oil or air source really our options were limited. I'm hoping things will settle and I won't regret it but it's not simple (for me anyway).

 

I'm feeling slightly better now I am monitoring it and can fiddle with the settings. What wasn't helpful was when it was commissioned the company telling us basically to just control the room thermostats/programme and not go into the advanced settings as we wouldn't need them though I sense this was done because we are women and clearly incapable of understanding it! My regret is I wasn't firm and insisted I went through things to fully understand things better.

 

When I spoke to them on the phone and starting rattling off information from on here there was silence ? and they couldn't clearly explain answers to my questions - I've had more helpful responses on here and owe certain people a big thanks.

[Ultima357]

Just been reading through this long thread as I have the same ASHP and have been slowly educating myself in the mystic art of running one. Simple they are not and the Samsung manuals make quite good fire lighting paper, they are pretty useless otherwise. On the subject of water law or weather compensation as it should be called, I have my 201* settings as 15 and - 2, the corresponding 202* at 40 and 50. Hot water is set to 48 standard and I schedule this to come on between 17:00 and 22:00 as I have solar PV with isolar boost, so any daytime excess PV gets put into hot water and if needed, the ashp tops it up. You should have the immersion hooked into the panel if not done by solar to give the disinfection cycle otherwise it will give the error described. I manually boost mine via the isolar unit if we've had a bad week solar wise. It will show 50deg plus during hw heating, typically 56 ish. I have a 400l tank so ample to use. The heating 0.0 setting is just the offset to the water law, so setting it at - 5 will take 5 deg off the 202* settings as I understand it. I suggest googling Freedom Heat pumps, the main UK importer and looking up their YouTube training videos. They are a mile ahead of the documentation but even then, they had the water law settings wrong (I've emailed them to point this out, but no reply). 

 

As for the Samsung panel display of energy use etc, well that too is fantasy. Electric use not too far out though but energy produced gives a COP of 20! Not that's not a typo, it does indicate 20. Just look at the display of daily hours running. Some will be over 24 hrs... It really is a joke. BTW I found mine glugging heat out of the hot water tank overnight in its own antifreeze cycle instead of the buffer tank. Still waiting for an answer from Samsung on this. Meanwhile I've bypassed the hw valve with a manual switch. Pity you can't program it out as I have enough glycol in the system to protect to - 10ish.

 

Your energy use is very high, but non insulated external walls will just bleed heat out as fast as you put it in. I didn't see what they are made of, but old solid 9inch brick walls have a Uvalue of 3 plus. Ten times higher that well insulated modern construction. Mine are 0.1U as is the rest of the house, floor, roof. Windows triple glazed at an average of 0.78U. 253m2 plus another 100m2 of warm attic. My monthly electric bill to 15th Jan was £107. 65" TV too?. Oh, and we run at 23 deg mostly, 22 in bedrooms, hall, utility. No point spending money on heating and still being cold is there? Hope this helps. 

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by Ultima357
Typo

[joe90]

@canalsiderenovation I am convinced it’s just teething problems, they are so different from oil or gas boilers but once up and running how you want it I think you will be pleased, I am with mine.

[Ultima357]

Some may ask why I run the UFH at such high temps. Its a 14 zone, 21 loop system, and as I have a fully insulated slab (300mm of eps and down to 100mm on the perimeter up to dpc) the UFH is cast into the slab of 150mm to 300mm thick concrete. A 155 ton heatstore. So it takes a good push to make it responsive enough for me. Other than kitchen and utility we are fully carpeted at 2 to 2.3 tog. 

[canalsiderenovation]

9 minutes ago, Ultima357 said:

Simple they are not and the Samsung manuals make quite good fire lighting paper, they are pretty useless otherwise.

 

@Ultima357 thank you I thought it was me!

 

I need to read fully what you have said and go through it tomorrow. The flat roof extension and pitched extension is decently insulated, block and beam and we had all the existing bungalow floors excavated and insulated, new roof and insulation, all new Internorm windows etc but the existing 1970s external walls will likely be letting us down but they did have cavity wall insulation. Hopefully we can get the EWI sorted as soon as the weather improves a bit.

 

If I can get our bills to what you're are I'll be very happy!

Edited January 19, 2021 by canalsiderenovation

[canalsiderenovation]

9 minutes ago, joe90 said:

@canalsiderenovation I am convinced it’s just teething problems, they are so different from oil or gas boilers but once up and running how you want it I think you will be pleased, I am with mine.

 

We have just had our RHI grant approved thank God and the payments start in March which will be a godsend - will go towards our mammoth electricity bills!

[Ultima357]

25 minutes ago, canalsiderenovation said:

 

@Ultima357 thank you I thought it was me!

 

I need to read fully what you have said and go through it tomorrow. The flat roof extension and pitched extension is decently insulated, block and beam and we had all the existing bungalow floors excavated and insulated, new roof and insulation, all new Internorm windows etc but the existing 1970s external walls will likely be letting us down but they did have cavity wall insulation. Hopefully we can get the EWI sorted as soon as the weather improves a bit.

 

If I can get our bills to what you're are I'll be very happy!

A cavity wall with full cavity will be circa 1U, maybe lower. With good external insulation you should get down towards 0.2 which will help a lot. The people installing it should give you figures or it should be on your EPC I guess already if you're getting RHI. 

[newhome]

39 minutes ago, canalsiderenovation said:

With no mains gas, ground source heat pump not an option and only having the choice of oil or air source really our options were limited. I'm hoping things will settle and I won't regret it but it's not simple (for me anyway).

 

That's my reason for looking at them too as there is no gas here. I have an electric boiler currently but manage to keep the bills down by running it once a day in the main (early hours of the morning). The UFH doesn't drop significantly in 24 hours so I find that ok. I sometimes need to put it on again if I want to take a bath in the evening as opposed to a shower but it generally only needs a half hour top up at that point. I am conscious that a boiler is a very different beast compared to an ASHP however that will be on over a much longer period. 

 

[AliG]

8 hours ago, canalsiderenovation said:

@AliG the only thing on our tank that resembles your picture is this below wired into the heat pump and there is no temperature dial and I've literally had a torch all round the tank. Is it possible this is set by the heat pump?

 

That's good, so as you say the heat pump sets the hot water temperature and the immersion is used for the legionella cycle.

 

Just switching off the legionella cycle should eliminate the immersion use and you should be sorted.

[ProDave]

11 hours ago, canalsiderenovation said:

 

We will have the solar pv immersion solic200 and running on Thursday so I presume I'll need to look into appropriate settings for this then too.

That should not affect the HP settings but it will affect the immersion wiring and may mean the immersion can no longer be controlled from the HP. 

[Dave Jones]

12 hours ago, newhome said:

I’ve been considering an ASHP (I have 3 recent quotes) but having read your thread and numerous other similar threads on a heat pump forum I’m a bit put off by the potential for large running costs and the relative complexity. 
 

With your temperature at 19 degrees that’s probably the difference between feeling completely comfortable in a tee shirt vs needing to wear something a bit thicker when sitting around. IMO one of the best inventions known to (wo)man is the heated throw. Totally luxurious when it’s a bit chilly indoors in the months when the heating isn’t on, and also great in winter when you want a bit more warmth. Unfortunately my rescue dog who until 2 months ago hadn’t even been in a house has taken a great liking to mine and has claimed it as his own ??

 

 

 

dont do it!

 

If you have access to mains gas the cost of the pump alone with give you free hot water for ever ! 10k heat pump will pay for a lot of hot water.

[SteamyTea]

20 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

dont do it!

Why are you so against heat pumps.

20 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

If you have access to mains gas

And if you don't, which is the case here, what do you suggest, a greasy oil tank, filled with a volatile (both financially and chemically) liquid.

Or maybe a large rented cylinder, where the filling service may be withdrawn.

[ToughButterCup]

7 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Why are you so against heat pumps....

 

The cost.  ? 

[TonyT]

What about a hydrogen boiler 

[SteamyTea]

6 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

The cost

Not as if a traditional natural gas system is free.

 

I also think there is needs to be a distinguishing between an easily fitted combi boiler and a complicated heat pump installation.

If I was to fit either to my house, which I can now (as some poor sap paid to get gas fitted to the end of the road, was £20k when I looked into it), I doubt there would be a huge difference in price.

[ProDave]

41 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

 

dont do it!

 

If you have access to mains gas the cost of the pump alone with give you free hot water for ever ! 10k heat pump will pay for a lot of hot water.

The counter argument, is a gas connection comes with a cost, the gas work must be done by a gas safe engineer with a cost, there is an annual service with a cost.

 

On the other hand many of us have sourced our own ASHP's and self installed them for less than the gas connection would have cost, even if gas were available.

 

I accept if you have gas then a gas boiler will be the cheapest system, but for those that don't have gas and can't get it, an ASHP is far more attractive than other alternatives.

[Dave Jones]

4 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Not as if a traditional natural gas system is free.

 

I also think there is needs to be a distinguishing between an easily fitted combi boiler and a complicated heat pump installation.

If I was to fit either to my house, which I can now (as some poor sap paid to get gas fitted to the end of the road, was £20k when I looked into it), I doubt there would be a huge difference in price.

 

no difference lol!

 

gas combi £1k fitted.

 

heat pump 10k not counting underfloor, more tanks etc etc

 

Then there is the huge heating bills when they don't work very good in the winter.

 

Different ballpark altogether.

 

worcester boche are working on hydrogen boilers will see which wins but so far heat pumps at their current price point are hopeless.

[Dave Jones]

6 minutes ago, ProDave said:

The counter argument, is a gas connection comes with a cost, the gas work must be done by a gas safe engineer with a cost, there is an annual service with a cost.

 

On the other hand many of us have sourced our own ASHP's and self installed them for less than the gas connection would have cost, even if gas were available.

 

I accept if you have gas then a gas boiler will be the cheapest system, but for those that don't have gas and can't get it, an ASHP is far more attractive than other alternatives.

 

i accept where mains gas isnt an option then you have no choice but if mains gas IS available its also a no brainer.

[Dave Jones]

11 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Not as if a traditional natural gas system is free.

 

I also think there is needs to be a distinguishing between an easily fitted combi boiler and a complicated heat pump installation.

If I was to fit either to my house, which I can now (as some poor sap paid to get gas fitted to the end of the road, was £20k when I looked into it), I doubt there would be a huge difference in price.

 

the poor sap at end of road can have cheap limitless hotwater now though!

[SteamyTea]

31 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

the poor sap at end of road can have cheap limitless hotwater now though

Not at £8/m³ they can't.

But look on the bright side, you paid for it via your taxes, it was installed because there was a disabled person there.

35 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

gas combi £1k fitted

£1k to just hang it on the wall and connect a few pipes.

I would need to see some quotes about what is actually done for that.  We have some plumbers on here, maybe they can say what they would do for a grand.

[Dave Jones]

just because their disabled shouldt mean they have to lose out, more than happy taxes cover this.

 

a decent Ideal boiler £500 2 days if the plumber is particularly slow to fit it £500.

 

[AliG]

My guess is that a boiler all fitted would come in nearer £3k. There is pipework, flues, connecting up electrics and so on all to be considered. I am not saying that is what it should cost, but that would seem nearer the mark for what it probably would cost.

 

I have recently gone through the same thought process on my parents' place.

 

Putting in a gas supply plus installing a boiler - £5k versus an MCS install of an ASHP around £7-8k.

 

However, the MCS install then returns over £1k a year in RHI payments. This more than offsets the installation cost and provides a bit extra that should cover modestly higher running costs.

 

It looks like @canalsiderenovation is getting £1500 a year in RHI payments which would more than pay the electricity bill. But that doesn't mean you wouldn't want to minimise the bill.

 

As I understand it, at least in Scotland, you now need either an ASHP or PV to get an SAP pass. I decided the ASHP was the better option considering the RHI payments and issues with installing the PV on the small flat roof of the new place. I might look at putting PV on a carport roof instead. Putting in a gas supply comes with a series of its own issues as the regs around gas pipework and boilers are extremely tight. this is another reason that pushed me towards the ASHP. I must admit without the RHI subsidy I may have went the other way.

[joe90]

1 hour ago, Dave Jones said:

Then there is the huge heating bills when they don't work very good in the winter.

well our bills (with an ASHP) are less than our previous house with a gas boiler (which was a semi), our new build is detached in an exposed location and is twice the size.

Edited January 20, 2021 by joe90