Alu clad timber or pvc

[lizzie]

Can someone advise me please. We are having an mbc timber frame. Internorm have quoted for alu/pvc (I didnt specify they suggested not sure why). I don't like the idea of white plastic windows internally, they have quoted an extra 10% to colour them grey as the outside.

I know I must seem a bit silly but I didnt realise that you could get natural timber insides.

 

I will ring Internorm on Monday but can anyone tell me what benefit there is in having alu/pvc over alu/timber? Is it cost....is pvc cheaper or something? Price is eyewatering as it is.

many thanks in antcipation.

[ProDave]

Have you tried Rationel?

 

For me, they were half the price of Internorm, and only very very slightly poorer in terms of Uw values. I have ali clad timber.  Sadly though they no longer do a natural timber finish inside, just painted.
 

[lizzie]

I have tried them and they came to within a sniff of Internorm, I was surprised as everthing I have read said they were good value. Maybe its just the local agent. They quoted 3g alu/timber against Internorm 3g alu/pvc.  Would you consider alu/timber a superior product to alu/pvc?

 

many thanks

 

Liz

[MikeSharp01]

Upvc / Ali clad wad about 10% cheaper than wood / ali on our Internorm quote. The only difference is the internal finish and slight construction differences.  Rationel were cheaper, GBS (Green Building Store) do wood only but still offer wood internal finishes I think.

[lizzie]

Thank you. I know I want dark grey ali on the outside, I dont want white plastic on the inside and so far Internorm have only offered a grey coating on the plastic at an uplift of 10% on the white finish price. They have not offered me a timber ali window so I'm going to ask next week. I didnt even realise a timber ali window was an option until I found  ideal combi - their price looks good but the product doesnt seem quite so good and there seems to be limitation on sizes etc.

 

What do people think of upvc ali (if I go for the grey coating!) against timber ali Which is the better window. Its a huge expensse and I want to make the right choice. Window companies are pressuring ref lead times and I am floundering. Need help in the decision making process.

 

thank you

[IanR]

We have mostly timber/ali Internorm windows in our build, with  white UPVC/ali Internorm windows and door in our Utility. I can't remember the price difference, but I'm sure it was in the order of 25% cheaper for the UPVC.

 

Externally you can't see and difference between the timber and UPVC options. Internally it's down to the "look" you are going for. If you can get away with UPVC then I'd definitely go for it. Internorm UPVC are very well put together, very nice jointing in the frames, they look a quality product. UPVC frames are more robust that timber and are lower maintenance. Not that timber will be particularly high maintenance, but would require better looking after.

 

The Internorm supplier we used made a point of mentioning humidity levels whilst plaster and decoration is drying out, and telling us to ensure the house was well ventilated during this period as the timber framed windows can be susceptible to swelling at the joints. This was part of our decision to have UPVC in the Utility, that and the money it saved on a few windows and a door paid for us to go up to the Studio range for the whole house.

[le-cerveau]

We are going Internorm and initially we were having timber/ali for all rooms other than wet rooms which would be UPVC/ali (recommendation for moisture) but we changed to all UPVC/ali as it is cheaper, an in the long term easier on maintenance.  There are internal wood effects available on some windows KF410, KV440 and KF200 depending on the style (full details in the latest catalogue)  We are fitting KV440 home pure (we want the built in blind) throughout with one exception a KF410 studio as a high level in a build in wardrobe.

The pricing is difficult to follow as I had a difference of around 13% between the KV440 and HV350, however as our windows have the I-tec shading (solar drive blinds) this will be skewing the difference.  Also as my overall quote ends up with a 41% discount, so I take all window and door prices with a pinch of salt.

[Barney12]

Time consuming and frustrating as it is it really does pay to shop arround on Internorm. I have three quotes for Internorm HF310 on my desk and they vary wildly in price for exactly the same specification.

As @le-cerveau has said discounts of 40+% can be found. 

[ProDave]

It's surprising how prices vary, we found internorm twice the price or Rationel but I have even heard of once case where internorm were the cheapest.

 

Although Rationel don't do a timber finish inside, you can have the inside and outside different colours, e.g my plumber friend has just had them with the dark grey ali clad outside and an almost white finish inside.
 

[MikeSharp01]

We are at the point of choosing now and my other half won't have UPVC as the corner joining (mitre) on the inside offends her so we have to have wood or Ali on the inside, one thing to remember about UPVC is that you can paint it with the correct prep and paint on the inside if you don't like white, Sandtex (and many others) have a primer on top of which you can put any of their colours you like. This would be the cheapest option, although painting might be fiddly on the internal glazing bars etc, and you can change the colours as you please. If we didn't mind the the mitre it would have been the way we went as you can have Internorm (studio), not much doubt about the, quality and any internal colour. Of course you could go for Rationel at a lower price and still have the internal colour over white.

[lizzie]

Thanks all. Ecohaus Internorm have quoted us on Home Pure....his suggestion... I have not explored Studio range. Maybe its more expensive. We have a very contemporary single storey build in an exposed location on a ridge so want good windows and noise reduction from wind. Think I am going to have to drive to Nailsworth and try and see what all the options are and the price implications rather than just the one the salesman has chosen to quote us on. I feel very foolish for not exploring other Internorm options before now, as you can tell I am a novice when it comes to windows!

 

I have not looked at Mitre corners on upvc.......you have me worried now!

 

I am seeing a sample of the ideal combi timber/ali shortly but I really like the Internorm quality......pvc issue aside..... Rationel were near enough same price as Internorm and couldnt do exactly what we wanted. Velfac were cheaper but again couldnt do exactly what we wanted. Having analyzed Internorm and Ideal Combi quotes it seems the actual windows are cheaper from Internorm but the sliding doors (4 large ones) are double the price of the ideal  combi .........the front and back doors are also  double the price from Internorm but ideal combi cannot compete for style on the front door.

 

My perfect front door is an Internorm design.........anyone had any builiding regs problems with these? Im reading front doors need spyholes and limiters neither of which it has!

 

Thanks

 

Liz

[IanR]

21 minutes ago, lizzie said:

 Ecohaus Internorm have quoted us on Home Pure....his suggestion... I have not explored Studio range.

 

The Studio range is around 6% more than the equivalent Pure from Memory. But the Studio is not available in the 210 range, only the 310. The difference between 210 and 310 being a bit more insulating foam behind the cladding on the sash giving a slightly better U Value.

 

Functionally and performancewise, there's not much difference between the Pure 310 and Studio 310. You are just paying a small premium for the flush profile giving the more contemporary look. Although the Pure is pretty contemporary in my view.

Edited January 29, 2017 by IanR

[dogman]

3 hours ago, lizzie said:

anyone had any builiding regs problems with these? Im reading front doors need spyholes and limiters neither of which it has!

The door needs to be tested to secured by design or PAS 24. It also needs to comply with App Q of the building regs. The supplier will tell you this. I have had problems finding a pair of doors for our new build as very few have been tested and can be fitted to new builds.

You actually don't need a spy hole. you do need to be able to see someone stood there and this could be a window or even CCTV

[Gone West]

5 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said:

We are at the point of choosing now and my other half won't have UPVC as the corner joining (mitre) on the inside offends her

 

We had the mitres filled on our Rehau frames before they were sprayed. Everybody who has commented on them think they are ali not plastic.

[MikeSharp01]

1 hour ago, PeterStarck said:

We had the mitres filled on our Rehau frames before they were sprayed. Everybody who has commented on them think they are ali not plastic.

Brilliant, might run this past the other half and she if she might accept it as it would bring Rationel to the front of the price queue provided the filling was not too great a cost.

 

[PeterW]

There are a number of UPVC fabricators that do a traditional joint now too, especially on the foil faced profiles as it looks better. 

[Oz07]

2 hours ago, dogman said:

The door needs to be tested to secured by design or PAS 24. It also needs to comply with App Q of the building regs. The supplier will tell you this. I have had problems finding a pair of doors for our new build as very few have been tested and can be fitted to new builds.

You actually don't need a spy hole. you do need to be able to see someone stood there and this could be a window or even CCTV

Never had a bco check this.

[Ashburyselfbuild]

 

1 hour ago, PeterStarck said:

 

We had the mitres filled on our Rehau frames before they were sprayed. Everybody who has commented on them think they are ali not plastic.

On a previous renovation project I installed UPVC  and as the manufacturers described it, had the joints knifed and polished. This was far superior to the routed joint that seem to be the norm these days. These were done at no extra cost.

[TerryE]

We have AluClad PVC KF200 range.  Absolutely no complaints.  Zero maintenance, and the outside is sun-proof.  As to the cornered mitres, my immediate reaction was Eh? I am not in the house at the mo, and so I checked some of our internal photos for a blow-up of the detail. Yes, you can see a very slight line at 45° in the window corners, but it is extremely subtle.

 

@MikeSharp01, Mike do your picture frames have mitred or square corner joints in your house?  A mitred corner is just a different approach.  It doesn't make rational sense for one to be fine and the other offensive; this is purely cultural.  Having inward opening windows is another thing that some people hate the idea of, but once you see them in practice they are brilliant. 

[MikeSharp01]

From my perspective the mitre thing is close to pure prejudice on my other halves part but there are a couple of other reasons. She feels that UPVC has too much environmental impact and the sections can be deeper. I am working on it. Off to build it live in Maidstone on the weekend where we will make our final decision. 

[PeterW]

1 hour ago, MikeSharp01 said:

She feels that UPVC has too much environmental impact

 

Hmmm... against...??

 

Aluminium regularly gets mined in Australia, shipped to Iceland for converting into raw aluminium and then on to china for final processing.... In terms of environmental impact that is huge ! Embodied energy in Aluminium is far in excess of that in UPVC.

 

Timber has a few dark corners too, there is a lot about shipping and processing in the timber manufacturing process that gets ignored.

 

 

[MikeSharp01]

Agree but wood has a lot less embodied energy and it looks like we won't have Ali clad so best possible on that aspect.  However great chunks of the build has Ali facias so the windows reduce it not eliminate it! Anyway we shall see what we shall see at the weekend!?

[lizzie]

Thank you all for your very helpful comments. You are a vertiable mine of information.....think it will be Inter Aluc/pvc....decision this week!

[volcane]

We are in very final stages of house planning but one of our/my earliest decisions was the windows. I wanted internorm and picked Studio kf410 aluclad. Initially wanted to move away from PVC but realised that the wooden interior finish looked like it was wood effect PVC and the cost difference couldn't be justified.

[volcane]

I should've added to the above that our proposed house is very contemporary and has grown too big so the cost difference to have the wooden interior would be significant. I hope to get a chance to post up the floor plan and elevations.