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My (rotten) ASHP. Update.


zoothorn

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1 hour ago, ProDave said:

There is probably an option to turn off all temperature compensation.  Get the installers to turn that off.

 
To meet building regs / Benchmark it now needs to be installed as it is part of the control system. So you can’t do that. 
 

19 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Today the rads are -far- hotter than last night. So, there is --too much-- discrepency (it seems/ its becoming apparant now) between the influence the thermometre has, on whatever it is influencing.


It is the difference between the actual room temperature when it came on, the time to run and the target temperature. The system needs more heat into the room so the rads are hotter. Poached egg analogy all over again. 
 

20 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

This suggests, & only tentatively I say, there is let's say "an adjustment" that's needed of either the thermometre, or, whatever it influences to change the rads temp. If I could just find out what this thing it influences is... then Ive narrowed it down to 1 or both of 2 things: thermometre "too sensitive/ needs tweaking, or replacing" &/ or mysteryXthing taking a good thermmometre reading > & adjusting the temp "too much/ needs tweaking".


Neither. It’s working as designed and to spec / installed. 
 

If a certain room “feels cool” then look at the other options / issues. Draughts from windows or chimneys ..? That will make a room feel colder than it is at shoulder height or where the thermostat is installed. Fix that and you may find your “cold” issue is reduced. 
 

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

Right so I'm guessing in the dark here (why someone just cant explain it Ive no idea).


I’ve tried - you said you didn’t understand the instructions and trust me, trying to simplify weather compensation algorithms to their basics is nigh on impossible unless you have a good understanding of physics. 
 

9 hours ago, Temp said:

I had a look at the manual for the thermostat posted earlier. If its just a programmable thermostat then there are others that allow the daytime setback temperature  to be different to the night time setback.


It’s not a simple replacement - the unit not only does the thermostat elements but also is linked direct to the internal hydraulic controller so is paired. Would take a lot of effort to change or replace. 
 

3 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

seems to me from reading the thread you have cowboy installers and are doing everything you can not to get them back to fix it which I can understand.


It’s working as designed and installed - it’s a matter of understanding the controls and how it works here. 
 

 

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41 minutes ago, PeterW said:

trying to simplify weather compensation algorithms to their basics is nigh on impossible unless you have a good understanding of physics. 

Or a simple picture, though suspect a hiding for nothing.

Only physics needed is T=temperature and t=time.

IMG_20201102_102509.jpg

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@PeterW I appreciate your trying to explain it/ input, as always.

 

But if I see the outside temp is 8* & rads are hot for 3 hours, house gets nice & warm (I wanna take me long johns off its toasty: great: never had this house warm before/ woohoo etc!)..

 

& next morning I see outside temp is 10*, & rads are barely warm for 3 hours, house isn't warm (I can actually feel a nip thru me longjohns: not so great/ boohoo etc).

 

You are saying its working as it should. I disagree/ I'm questioning this opinion, I just can't make sense of this opinion. And so I'm questioning if its set up as it should, or if the thermo is over-sensitive, or if the thing it influences is going a bit ott, having got its (correct) temp from it.

 

A manual isn't gonna help tell me why there's this higher-than-expected rad temp discrepency. Nor is getting installers back saying 'its working fine' concurring with you.

 

If there's a way of tweaking the signal the thermometre sends, or wherever it sends it to (still mysteryXunit) is tweaked = fine. But this is all I can determine as a way of ridding this OTT discrepency.

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Well it looks to me that you are in for a miserable time with it.

Unwilling to get installers back in and unwilling to accept advice, or suggestions, and not even bothering to look up 'difficult terms' on the internet.

How much help do you really need, a magic fairy.

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5 hours ago, zoothorn said:

 

That would answer the question! but I dont think useful, if when its working correctly.. it could be a very useful device.

 

Today the rads are -far- hotter than last night. So, there is --too much-- discrepency (it seems/ its becoming apparant now) between the influence the thermometre has, on whatever it is influencing.

 

[Unless Temp is correct & this is just a perception I'm having: but truly its so different, putting a hand on as rad & you can just tell].

 

 

Hi,

 

1) Humans are NOT good thermometers.  Do put a simple thermometer up and see what temperatures are actually being achieved.

 

2) Please understand that the measure of a working system is NOT (repeat *not*!) whether the rads happen to feel hot or warm or cold when you happen to touch them, but how warm the room is (partly air temperature, partly surfaces).

 

3) Please just DO turn the temperature up as requested as an experiment, well over what you want, to test what happens.

 

4) Low (power) output does not necessarily mean low temperature. 

 

Rgds

 

Damon

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I bought a few of these to prove to my other half that the house was warm, as said above people are bad at detecting the temp. In our old house the walls were cold and the rads hot so you felt the warmth coming at you, in our new build the house has no heat source (apart from UFH) so you don’t detect a “heat source”, worth a couple of quote each.      https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Indoor-Temperature-Meter-Thermometer-Digital-Temp-Sensor-Probe-BO/302977237945?hash=item468ad9c3b9:g:mGcAAOSweX5b~~58

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One thing I have found when trying to operate or understand something complicated, is you read a bit of the manual, press a few buttons, then refer back to the manual again to see what to do next and go to do that, only to find because you have not pressed buttons for a while it has timed out of it's menu's.

 

So not only do you need a good understanding, you need a good memory to remember a sequence of button presses and do them quickly.

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41 minutes ago, ProDave said:

So not only do you need a good understanding, you need a good memory to remember a sequence of button presses and do them quickly.

 

Varilight programmable dimmers are the best (or should that be worst?!) example of that! To be fair, with only on, off and timings in-between things are going to get fairly complicated if needing to enter multiple different modes of configuration so their designers do have my sympathy. 

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18 hours ago, DamonHD said:

Hi,

 

1) Humans are NOT good thermometers.  Do put a simple thermometer up and see what temperatures are actually being achieved.

 

2) Please understand that the measure of a working system is NOT (repeat *not*!) whether the rads happen to feel hot or warm or cold when you happen to touch them, but how warm the room is (partly air temperature, partly surfaces).

 

3) Please just DO turn the temperature up as requested as an experiment, well over what you want, to test what happens.

 

4) Low (power) output does not necessarily mean low temperature. 

 

Rgds

 

Damon

 

Hi Damon- your points make sense to me/ maybe then my perception of temp is skewing things: this is a difficult thing to accept of course if I'm defo feeling a nip thru me l.johns, & definitely feeling a 3 hour continually-temperatured rad as barely warm (I physically can't be perceiving this wrong, can I?).

 

If I do the turn the damn thing UP & I expect it to increase rads' temp, this only prooves that the desired input function is working ok, not, that the outside thermometer is working ok. If I know turning the knob up from 18 to 21 affects the room temp, I can safely assume turning it to 25 will do the same.. so I'm continually not understanding why its being suggested.

 

The only viable test I can think of use, is putting a thermometer outside & checking the figure on the controller tallies with it (but how do I know my new manual thermometer is accurate?!). I think I'm gonna go bonkers if I start off down this route.

 

I'll try get the installers back (Ive tried 3x just to do minor tidy up things- but impossible) to at the least check the outside thermometer is functioning ok > and whatever unit it affects is functioning ok (can only be in the 'boiler' as I call the box thing).

 

thanks zH

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17 hours ago, ProDave said:

One thing I have found when trying to operate or understand something complicated, is you read a bit of the manual, press a few buttons, then refer back to the manual again to see what to do next and go to do that, only to find because you have not pressed buttons for a while it has timed out of it's menu's.

 

So not only do you need a good understanding, you need a good memory to remember a sequence of button presses and do them quickly.

 

Yes, and if its been translated from german to english badly it doubles the trouble, and if you've smoked your nut stupid aged at college so you can't remember why & wtf you've come in the room you're in to do thesedays, pretty alarmingly often.. you've triple the trouble!

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4 hours ago, zoothorn said:

If I do the turn the damn thing UP & I expect it to increase rads' temp, this only prooves that the desired input function is working ok, not, that the outside thermometer is working ok. If I know turning the knob up from 18 to 21 affects the room temp, I can safely assume turning it to 25 will do the same.. so I'm continually not understanding why its being suggested.

 

Not necessarily.

 

If the rad is (enough) warmer than the room then the room will get warmer, but that rad temperature could be anything, even below blood temp* (and so feel cold) and still achieve the desired effect.

 

What matters objectively is internal air and surfaces temperatures mainly, though I totally and completely agree that once this is sorted you need to be subjectively cosy too, whatever the numbers say.  But they are two separate things for now.

 

Please try and do some of the intermediate steps that you've been asked to and don't go jumping the shark...  Some of those "pushing the system" effects need to be tested.

 

1) Please measure internal air temperature(s) with thermometer(s) left in place, in a consistent place (or more than one) where you spend signficant time (where the temperature actually matters).

 

2) Please basically IGNORE rad temperatures for now.  At best I think they are a distraction at this moment.

 

3) Please DO TURN UP the stat setting well above where you think it should be for now.

 

I don't add to the crowd meddling, sorry!

 

Rgds

 

Damon

 

* I had a conversation with a senior guy at a HP manufacturer who assumed that the heating in a client's office was off because the rad was cold, but everything was as it should be and the rad at ~35C.  So low-temperature system can be unintuitive even for professionals in the field.

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Ok. Can someone explain why I'm continually being asked to turn it up. It is totally unintuitive to me. Just turn it UP! turn it UP! Just shut up & just do it! but never any explanation as to why. What on earth is the point to this?

 

If I turn it up.. the rads get hotter, the room gets hotter. So what? Is that what I'm then meant to put here as a finding?? then what, someone says "yes!! there you go!!"?? (so what would this proove? nothing I don't already know).

 

I'm not saying "the system isn't working at all" (in which case just turning it UP & it getting hotter would disproove me). I'm saying the system doesn't appear to be working in a rational way if one day the rads are warm-only-they-do-not-go-any-hotter-for-3-hours-solid when it says 12* outside, & the room isn't warm/ I'm not warm. And the next day the rads are hot-good-as-expected-go-on-and-off-but-mostly-fairly-hot-for-3-hours when it says 10* outside, & the room is warm/ I'm warm.

 

Its this discrepency I am enquiring about. Only this. It appears to me inconsistant with a system working normally.

 

Turn it UP! is totally meaningless excercise, unless I'mmistaken (& so if someone can explain why I'm being asked to do it then), & on a totally different tangent to the avenue I'm asking about.

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There is a suspicion it might not be reaching your target temperature because it is lowering the temperature to slow the rate of rise to prevent an overshoot.

 

By turning it well up high as an experiment will see if it is capable of warming up quicker than it presently is.

 

We are suggesting this as an experiment.  If you find with the temperature set way up high, the rooms warm up quicker, then this suggests the temperature compensation might need adjusting to make normal operation warm up quicker.

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50 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Can someone explain why I'm continually being asked to turn it up. It is totally unintuitive to me.


yes but by your own admission you don’t understand what’s wrong, those that are trying to help you know more than you and I do, so follow their suggestion and see what happens

 

12 minutes ago, ProDave said:

We are suggesting this as an experiment.  If you find with the temperature set way up high, the rooms warm up quicker, then this suggests the temperature compensation might need adjusting to make normal operation warm up quicker.


so do it and report back and those “that know” will be able to give an explanation as to what is wrong so you can tell your installers what needs changing.

Edited by joe90
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2 minutes ago, ProDave said:

There is a suspicion it might not be reaching your target temperature because it is lowering the temperature to slow the rate of rise to prevent an overshoot.

 

By turning it well up high as an experiment will see if it is capable of warming up quicker than it presently is.

 

We are suggesting this as an experiment.  If you find with the temperature set way up high, the rooms warm up quicker, then this suggests the temperature compensation might need adjusting to make normal operation warm up quicker.

 

Somewhat clearer- thanks ProDave. I'm totally confused still though.

 

"If you find with the temperature set way up high, the rooms warm up quicker, then this suggests the temperature compensation might need adjusting to make normal operation warm up quicker."

 

I just don't understand this. Surely if I find the room warms up quicker doing this, that is -exactly- what I would expect, & therefore, could conclude it -doesn't- need adjusting.

 

I think its too much- if I can't make sense of you kindly explaining why the experiment is being asked of me, there's no way I can understand how, if, its (what- if I cannot even figure this out too) needing adjusting, it can be done, let alone by whom. I'm getting such a headache trying to understand the suggestions & info.

 

The system is just too complicated, & there's too much to go wrong with it (& so far has done) so your never sure if its working right, & the manual is incomprehensible. This much is a certainty.

 

At least it seems to be working when the outside temp drops: if it was the other way round I'd be up a gum tree- so I'll leave it at that.

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7 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

The system is just too complicated, & there's too much to go wrong with it


No more than any type of heating system. I’ve seen gas boilers throw more fits than a toddler just because they can ...

 

And as I said, weather compensation is complex and even I don’t know “exactly” how it’s programmed into this unit but if you try a few of the things people have suggested, it may just help. 

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"Temperature compensation". Aha, I missed these words before as I was distractedly frazzled trying to understand the turn it up test.

 

Ok now this surely is the nub of what needs adjusting: at last I can see the wood for the trees. Its pretty obvious this is where the minor issue lies, if I find what I've repeatedly said I find. No need for any 'turn it up' (.. is there?) I didn't even know there was such a thing/ area/ section as 'temperature compensation'.

 

If I knew where this was, heck I could probably tweak it myself, maybe in 5mins. But finding it, in that manual?? no flaming chance.

 

Thanks- useful info then from ProDave (obviouslyI needed joe90's calm manner to get me to it!).

 

Appreciated chaps- zH

 

 

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Right, last go.

 

Think of it as a car, one with manual gears.

Each gear will have a maximum top speed when the car is running on level ground.

Think of that top speed as temperature.

Now you can keep the same temperature, but get there faster by using a lower gear i.e. better acceleration.

Temperature compensation does this automatically for you (no don't say you don't understand automatic cars and have never driven one, they exist, and work).

So when there is a large temperature difference, it in effect uses 'lower gears' to get desired temperature faster.

 

So when you are asked to 'turn the temperature up', there will be a larger temperature difference between inside and outside, the ASHP will 'drop a gear' and endeavour to close that gap as fast as it can.

If it fails to show much difference, then the temperature compensation 'curve' may need changing (and don't ask for an explanation, just accept it can be changed).

There are a number of reasons that the curve is wrong, mainly these controllers are sold globally and the default settings may be for a totally different climate than the UK (you can claim this is wrong and should not happen, and is bad design, but you are one customer out of millions, and they don't give a flying (expletive deleted) what you think).

 

Turning it up a few degrees for a few hours is going to take that, say 3 hours.  You have spent several days, and many collective hours of other peoples time on this.

Just give it a go, you may be surprised.

Edited by SteamyTea
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27 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

If I knew where this was, heck I could probably tweak it myself, maybe in 5mins. But finding it, in that manual?? no flaming chance

 It is buried in the installer guide, and you need the passcode to get into installer settings. And I’ve no idea how to do that or what else it would screw up. 

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14 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Less than Zoothorn though.

 

 Ok thanks for the explanation/ at last a reason, above. Unless its explained "just turn it up!" makes no sense & my time also is wasted asking and asking why I should be doing such a seemingly meaningless test.

 

But surely, my findings/ what Ive outlined as is happening, are reason-enough to conclude the 'temperature compensation' needs adjusting?

 

All I really need do now I have these two words to hand, is call someone & pester them to adjust it. Maybe installers.

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4 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

But surely, my findings/ what Ive outlined as is happening, are reason-enough to conclude the 'temperature compensation' needs adjusting?


Nope as it could be working correctly ..!! Until you actually do the tests we’ve asked then no one knows. 

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12 minutes ago, PeterW said:


Nope as it could be working correctly ..!! Until you actually do the tests we’ve asked then no one knows. 

 

How so if its got 'temp compensation' & I'm cold @ 9am one morning (outside temp mild), but warm the next morning at 9am (outside temp a few degrees colder)?

 

Has my perception of cold changed in 24hrs & its actually working correctly?? or.. is it cos the temp compensation ain't working right??

 

I mean- come now.

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15 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Has my perception of cold changed in 24hrs & its actually working correctly?? or.. is it cos the temp compensation ain't working right??


You’ve latched onto this being “the issue” yet it could be one of many - and despite myself, @Nickfromwales @DamonHD @ProDave and @SteamyTea asking you to try the basics to eliminate a potential issue, you’ve ignored the requests. 
 

I have no idea if it’s the issue, and it could even be something bizarre such as the wind direction or the airflow over this sensor, but without having one more piece of information to try and help, we are all guessing. 
 

Essentially ignoring all the advice you’ve been given is like asking us to stand in the centre of circle and walk to the edge, but telling us we are walking the wrong direction ..!! 
 

So please either do what’s been asked and let us know the outcome, or don’t. But if you don’t, please don’t ask for any more advice on this as we are wasting our time.
 

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