My (rotten) ASHP. Update.

[zoothorn]

1 minute ago, PeterW said:

No idea as it’s proprietary to Vaillant how they do it. But expect it changes the heat curves and the power input. 
 

20-20.5 is too close for it to dump a lot of heat in - as I said, turn it up ..!!

 

 

Ive just no idea what the 2nd sentence means though unfortunately, nor the gist of the 1st half of the 3rd either.

 

I have had 20.5* as my desired temp always, so there's no reason I should change it Peter.

[PeterW]

Fine. 

[Nickfromwales]

26 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

I have had 20.5* as my desired temp always, so there's no reason I should change it Peter.

You're being told asked to do something so that the folk helping can ascertain how to help / what could be at fault. Turning it up to 22-23oC will put the system into a curve that makes the heat pump ramp up. Peter wishes to see what effect that will have on the system performance so that he can continue to help you. Prob best to do as people ask, or how are they going to be able help you?

 

[zoothorn]

29 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Fine. 

 

Peter how on earth am I meant to know what 'heat curves' & 'power input' means? they're totally arbitrary terms to me. and 'dumping in heat' too- Ive just no idea what you mean. Am I just meant to?

 

Does anyone know how an outside thermometer interacts/ affects the results seen at a radiator? (assuming it does affect it.. or it wouldn't be there). What could its purpose be, besides measuring temperature?

 

thanks- zoot

 

 

[MJNewton]

The low output could be the weather compensation in action - recognising that the outside temperature is relatively high (is it?) it limits the heat output. In the middle of winter it'd crank it up to max. 

[Nickfromwales]

 

5 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Peter how on earth am I meant to know what 'heat curves' & 'power input' means? they're totally arbitrary terms to me. and 'dumping in heat' too- Ive just no idea what you mean. Am I just meant to?

Just turn it up when asked.......  

 

4 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

The low output could be the weather compensation in action - recognising that the outside temperature is relatively high (is it?) it limits the heat output. In the middle of winter it'd crank it up to max. 

Yup, aka 'weather compensation'. The ASHP will increase it's output to compensate for the lower temp / lower it when milder. It's so the heating curve is more palatable. @zoothorn that translates into cooler running rads when it's not baltic outside ( basic terms ). The outside unit and inside unit talk to each other, and if the system is struggling to get the house up to temp the controls will take over and the outside unit will be told to 'get it's finger out and "dump in more heat". The controls are sophisticated beyond most people's comprehension, so explaining every nut and bolt is just impractical. Hence the request for some rudimentary commands being given to cut to the chase. 

Edited November 1, 2020 by Nickfromwales

[zoothorn]

Just now, Nickfromwales said:

You're being told asked to do something so that the folk helping can ascertain how to help / what could be at fault. Turning it up to 22-23oC will put the system into a curve that makes the heat pump ramp up. Peter wishes to see what effect that will have on the system performance so that he can continue to help you. Prob best to do as people ask, or how are they going to be able help you?

 

 

Nick- All I read were 3 sentences I couldn't understand. If I could understand them, I could see -why- he was asking me to turn the temp up. Heat curves.. I thought he was talking tech to ProDave.. it made zero sense to me/ never heard this term before.

 

The system goes off at 9pm, so I can't just 'go turn it up & see'.

 

--

 

I was asking about the outside thermometer. This is the only thing I can think of as to why my rads have been continually lukewarm for 3 hours. I know only that this thing is there, and if its there, it must have some -factor- in how the system operates. If its particularly mild outside.. I can only surmise that -this- (& the registering of this mildness) might, might have something to do with what I find.. only lukeawarm rads.

 

But I need to try & understand it, 1st by asking if anyone knows why its there (other than 'measure a temp dummy'), and maybe how it interacts with the system, why/ what is its purpose. It might have no bearing on my warm rads- they might just be fkd like my pump was. That seems the most plausible answer I'm at so far.

 

[PeterW]

1 minute ago, zoothorn said:

 

Peter how on earth am I meant to know what 'heat curves' & 'power input' means? they're totally arbitrary terms to me. and 'dumping in heat' too- Ive just no idea what you mean. Am I just meant to?

 

Does anyone know how an outside thermometer interacts/ affects the results seen at a radiator? (assuming it does affect it.. or it wouldn't be there). What could its purpose be, besides measuring temperature?

 

thanks- zoot

 

 

yes - basically the pumps have a power curve where they work the delta out between available heat in the outside air, required heat for the house (delta between current temperature and desired temperature) and then depending on the curve, it puts the correct amount of power into the compressor. You do not want full power all the time into the heating otherwise you will massively overshoot the target temperature. 
 

To give you a simple analogy. You want a pan of barely simmering water to poach an egg.  Put a pan on the stove and you turn the power up to 6 (assume 1-6) and it will come to a fast boil very quickly but if you put an egg in it, you’re going to ruin it. So you only put it onto 3, and it comes to a bare simmer but slowly. And you don’t overshoot the temperature you want. Perfect poached egg. 

If you want to know how it all works - here’s the manual for the weather compensation system. 
 

https://www.vaillant.co.uk/downloads/aproducts/controls/vrc-5/vrc-700f-installation-instructions-0020237057-00-1043324.pdf

 

[PeterW]

Main internal unit installation manual (boiler as you call it)

 

https://www.vaillant.co.uk/downloads/aproducts/renewables-1/arotherm-split-1/arotherm-split-manual-hydraulic-unit-1456697.pdf

 

Outdoor unit installation in 6 languages here 

 

https://www.vaillant.co.uk/downloads/aproducts/renewables-1/arotherm-split-1/arotherm-split-manual-outdoor-unit-1456698.pdf

 

Interesting it has a “Quiet Mode” so next time Vaillant are there get them to enable it 

[Nickfromwales]

11 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

The system goes off at 9pm, so I can't just 'go turn it up & see'.

Turning the rotary dial should be set to master override ( temporary override to be precise ) and will kick the system in regardless of the timed setting. That's so you can boost the heating sporadically and not have to interfere with timed settings or the current program.

Understanding the A-Z of this at this time is a little over the capabilities of most as it's not a regularly discussed topic and nor do I think does anyone else have a split. Mention of this being quiet....how would anyone without a split know?!?

Mention of a nigh time setting.....doesn't have one, just a set primary temp for 'heating' flow and a set temp to achieve on the room thermostat that it will use that primary temperature water to achieve said set temp eg by running that heated water through the radiators. Simple. If you want a night time setting aka set-back, then just manually set the dial to that temp and the ASHP will take over the thinking for you eg it will give little flow on a reduced curve and be of less nuisance. If the heating return stays cool and the stat doesn't get satisfied then the system will adjust and the ASHP will be told to up its game a little until internal conditions are met.

[zoothorn]

12 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

The low output could be the weather compensation in action - recognising that the outside temperature is relatively high (is it?) it limits the heat output. In the middle of winter it'd crank it up to max. 

 

So 'low output' means for a customer (sorry- look Im not a technician ok?) low temperature of the rad.

 

When you say "it" (it'd crank -it- up to max) what are you referring to? 'It'd crank.. the -rad- up to max? ..the -boiler- up to max? ..the -cylinder- up to max? ..the -thermostat- up to max?

 

I've established only that this thermometre interacts & introduces a change to something, and as I thought this may be the reason for the rads at the temp I found them. I'm just needing a clearer picture of how it then changes, whatever it changes.

 

You see I'm only used to trv's. I actually thought -all- rads are either in an 'on' state or an 'off' state, a trv is prime eg. If I want a room to 15* the rad might come on 3x in 1 hour. If I want a 21* room rad might come on 6x in 1 hour.

 

If the actual temp of the rad changes instead of the frequency of times it comes on.. I'm not used to it doing so. So its trying to understand IF this is indeed what's happening here now today, & if possible, trying to understand how its happened.

 

 

[ProDave]

A basic principle of all control systems is as you approach the set point (in this case the temperature you have set on the dial is the set point) the system must reduce the amount of power (in this case slow down the rate of heat input)

 

If you maintain full power input (full temperature radiators) until you reach the required temperature, then turn it off, the room temperature is likely to overshoot (ho higher than the temperature set on the thermostat)

 

All people are saying, is try turning the room thermostat up a lot higher than you want, and then turn it back down when you feel warm.  That might get the rooms up to temperature quicker.

 

 

[zoothorn]

7 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Main internal unit installation manual (boiler as you call it)

 

https://www.vaillant.co.uk/downloads/aproducts/renewables-1/arotherm-split-1/arotherm-split-manual-hydraulic-unit-1456697.pdf

 

Outdoor unit installation in 6 languages here 

 

https://www.vaillant.co.uk/downloads/aproducts/renewables-1/arotherm-split-1/arotherm-split-manual-outdoor-unit-1456698.pdf

 

Interesting it has a “Quiet Mode” so next time Vaillant are there get them to enable it 

 

Peter I can't possibly cope with the controller manual.. let alone diving into this lot. ("Quiet mode" is very interesting tho..)

 

You about 10 steps ahead of me. I'm still trying to figure out why I have a thermometre on the outside and -how- it interacts with whatever it interacts with. Imagine I'm Mrs Miggins at no.73 who hasn't had CH before, its like a ufo's just landed with gadgets & plinking lights. I've got the cupboard door open still trying to decide if they'd like battenberg or maybe some garibaldis.. whilst you're in the next room hammer & tongs re-arranging the furniture.

[PeterW]

Mrs Miggins doesn’t care. She just turns the knob on the front of the thermostat and the temperature increases. 
 

So if you don’t understand the controller, why confuse yourself further with understanding the complex interactions between the external thermostat and the internal controls ..??
 

Power curves, weather compensation and all that is set and forget by the installer. It’s why those menus have passcodes that only service engineers know ..!!

[Nickfromwales]

2 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Mrs Miggins doesn’t care. She just turns the knob on the front of the thermostat and the temperature increases. 
 

So if you don’t understand the controller, why confuse yourself further with understanding the complex interactions between the external thermostat and the internal controls ..??
 

Power curves, weather compensation and all that is set and forget by the installer. It’s why those menus have passcodes that only service engineers know ..!!

yup.

44 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Just turn it up when asked.......  

 

and yup.

[Nickfromwales]

10 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

Peter I can't possibly cope with the controller manual.. let alone diving into this lot. ("Quiet mode" is very interesting tho..)

 

You about 10 steps ahead of me. I'm still trying to figure out why I have a thermometre on the outside and -how- it interacts with whatever it interacts with. Imagine I'm Mrs Miggins at no.73 who hasn't had CH before, its like a ufo's just landed with gadgets & plinking lights. I've got the cupboard door open still trying to decide if they'd like battenberg or maybe some garibaldis.. whilst you're in the next room hammer & tongs re-arranging the furniture.

Did you ask Samsung how the TV works, or do you just switch the chuffing thing on and watch the nice picture?

[zoothorn]

24 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Mrs Miggins doesn’t care. She just turns the knob on the front of the thermostat and the temperature increases. 
 

So if you don’t understand the controller, why confuse yourself further with understanding the complex interactions between the external thermostat and the internal controls ..??
 

Power curves, weather compensation and all that is set and forget by the installer. It’s why those menus have passcodes that only service engineers know ..!!

 

Well yes, in that respect I can set & forget. But Im left without knowing if the rads only felt as warm.. is another flamin fault.. or.. whether its working correctly, and that the outside thermometre might have goverened this rad setting.

 

So I'm trying to be one step beyong Mrs Miggins. Just one. Not considering power curves that's 3 steps on. Just how my rad was warm for 3 hrs. What made it so. Forgive me but dialing the damn thing up to 25* won't give me the answer to this (actually I don't know what answer doing this would be relevant to anything I'm asking tbh).

 

When I find out what made it so... then I can establish if I have yet another flaming fault -or- its doing what it should. If I have a series of faults, of Vailants equipment, an error code so a transformer changed, then a pump changed, low pressure warnings, noisy bloody compressor agreed by them, the damn thing going on at 6am they have no idea about, then dribbling shenanigans...... I'm naturally on tenterhooks waiting for the next fault aren't I. So I -need- to be one step on from Mrs Miggins to understand a wee bit more, to be able to tell: fault no.7 or not.

[MJNewton]

9 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Forgive me but dialing the damn thing up to 25* won't give me the answer to this (actually I don't know what answer doing this would be relevant to anything I'm asking tbh).

 

Just do it! 

 

It might not give you the answer directly, but it might help us work out what might be happening. 

 

Zoot, if you're asking for help the least you can do is do what's asked of you - even if you're not sure why? Mrs Miggins never gives us all this trouble...

Edited November 1, 2020 by MJNewton

[Nickfromwales]

4 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

and that the outside thermometer might have governed this rad setting.

That's its job. 24/7  The only thing required there is your absence   The internal Vaillant programmable room thermostat says when and how hot, f.uck all to do with the external unit / thermometers / owt lad. Stop worrying about anything outside influencing your use of times / temps as that is done on your behalf TO COMPLIMENT the times and temps set internally.

You are an END USER, not a technician. Focus on what you NEED to know, not what you'd LIKE to know. Life's too short ( yours AND ours )  

[Temp]

If I've understood correctly you are currently setting it to 20.5 dedegrees and sometimes that feels OK and sometime you feel cold? If that's the case I recommend setting up a thermometer to check the air temperature. If that says the air temperature is correct but you feel hot/cold then its probably you not the system. I get exactly the same. I'm 60 and what i eat and drink makes a big difference, even a decaf tea can make it feel like the heating is up 2C. The human body is a very poor judge of temperature and easily fooled. I recommend using a  digital  thermometer to check the actual temperature if you don't trust the displayed temperature on the stat.

 

I had a look at the manual for the thermostat posted earlier. If its just a programmable thermostat then there are others that allow the daytime setback temperature  to be different to the night time setback. Our Heatmiser for example allows 4 different temperature periods which could be...  Night setback (16), Early (21), Day setback (18), Evening (21). Others have even more.

[zoothorn]

9 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Did you ask Samsung how the TV works, or do you just switch the chuffing thing on and watch the nice picture?

 

Did I ask samsung how the WM works I think you meant.

[zoothorn]

8 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

That's its job. 24/7  The only thing required there is your absence   The internal Vaillant programmable room thermostat says when and how hot, f.uck all to do with the external unit / thermometers / owt lad. Stop worrying about anything outside influencing your use of times / temps as that is done on your behalf TO COMPLIMENT the times and temps set internally.

You are an END USER, not a technician. Focus on what you NEED to know, not what you'd LIKE to know. Life's too short ( yours AND ours )  

 

Right so I'm guessing in the dark here (why someone just cant explain it Ive no idea). The outside thermometre senses its cold.. and either (THIS is what Im asking/ still not answered) it changes the duration the rads are on...........................

 

.....................or it changes the temp the boiler (or wtf the box thing on the wall is, taking the high pressure whatever, & doing god only knows what with it) heats thev water up to to feed the rads.

 

It HAS to influence one or the other of these two things.

 

But no answer on here just "turn the bloody thing up!!" which does NOT answer this Q (how can it?). IF it influences the temp at which the rads are, it must have influenced whatever feeds the bloomin rads.. so.. if there are 3 units after it (the big fanny, the box thing, the cylinder) its me guessing it seems which its likely to influence. Its unlikely to be the cylinder afaict. 2 left. Could it influence my big fanny? well not the speed of the fan I wouldn't think, so the rate of the compressor? maybe. Or (1 left) the box boiler thing? maybe/ more likely/ I put my money on it influencing this.

 

So, if this thermometre is registering ----incorrectly--- the end results might be the rads go in two ways: too hot (it might be registering too low a temp) or too cold (it might be registering not cold enough). I have not ruled out it is not doing something incorrectly. From my 6x faults so far (and the fact that its too complicated for its own good) = its a 50/50 chance it is another fault. Or it just needs adjusting. I don't know.

 

 

[ProDave]

There is probably an option to turn off all temperature compensation.  Get the installers to turn that off.

[zoothorn]

46 minutes ago, ProDave said:

There is probably an option to turn off all temperature compensation.  Get the installers to turn that off.

 

That would answer the question! but I dont think useful, if when its working correctly.. it could be a very useful device.

 

Today the rads are -far- hotter than last night. So, there is --too much-- discrepency (it seems/ its becoming apparant now) between the influence the thermometre has, on whatever it is influencing.

 

[Unless Temp is correct & this is just a perception I'm having: but truly its so different, putting a hand on as rad & you can just tell].

 

This suggests, & only tentatively I say, there is let's say "an adjustment" that's needed of either the thermometre, or, whatever it influences to change the rads temp. If I could just find out what this thing it influences is... then Ive narrowed it down to 1 or both of 2 things: thermometre "too sensitive/ needs tweaking, or replacing" &/ or mysteryXthing taking a good thermmometre reading > & adjusting the temp "too much/ needs tweaking".

 

Does this not make any logical sense to anyone?? will the reply again be to just "turn it up!"??

 

thx zH

[Dave Jones]

seems to me from reading the thread you have cowboy installers and are doing everything you can not to get them back to fix it which I can understand.

 

Did you get a certificate with an insurance backed guarantee when it was fitted ? If you did make a claim.

 

If not sounds like it was done on the cheap and as we all know you cant have cheap and quality at the same time.