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My (rotten) ASHP. Update.


zoothorn

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But your surveyors should have realised that an ashp is the wrong choice for your type of house, poorly insulated, esp as small a heat pump that you have been given. That's their job. To come out and do  heat loss calculations and show that what they are going to install will be good enough to cover the losses. The fact they wanted to install extra insulation is a good indication that they didn't think it was suitable. To over come your heat losses you need water going round the rads that is 70 degrees or higher. An oil boiler would have been the wiser choice. It could run flat out and produce hot water fairly quickly. An ashp just won't be able to do this and maintain any degree of efficiency.

Most here that have an ashp have very low energy builds so need very little heat to maintain that 20/21 setpoint.

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1 minute ago, PeterW said:

Could be a legionella cycle taking the tank up to 65c. Or a frost stat controlling the unit to stop overnight freezing but unlikely as you don’t have water going outside. 

 

The 1st is something Ive considered. But surely a senior engineer would have said as a possibility, he was as bemused as the other engineer.. so I'm clutching at straws so much Ive no choice but ask anyone I can think of. Also it wouldn't need to be 'tied' to the small hrs overnight period to do it, as this damn cycle thing clearly is.. it would do it  as often during the day, as the night.

 

Frost thing- if the noise is solely within the inside unit, & the controller is saying the room temp this unit is in, is 19* (last night 11pm).. I don't see how any frost-situation could be a viable cause. This box unit doesn't affect 'back' down the chain, back down the pipes out the wall, back out to the outside unit if the outside unit was possibly being registered as 'frost-possible'.. I wouldn't have thought as only 2x high pressure gas pipes link the two units, the flow only ever in one direction >> into the box, not the other way.

 

If the room I saw as below 10*, or, if the room was 4* (wholly unlikely on both counts, currently & since august) concurrently with hearing this noise-cycle mode.. Id be pointing there.

 

But I have -nothing- even after your sensible suggestions, telling what its doing, why within the set-back period, & why only in these 'small hours' it does it.

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6 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

But your surveyors should have realised that an ashp is the wrong choice for your type of house, poorly insulated, esp as small a heat pump that you have been given. That's their job. To come out and do  heat loss calculations and show that what they are going to install will be good enough to cover the losses. The fact they wanted to install extra insulation is a good indication that they didn't think it was suitable. To over come your heat losses you need water going round the rads that is 70 degrees or higher. An oil boiler would have been the wiser choice. It could run flat out and produce hot water fairly quickly. An ashp just won't be able to do this and maintain any degree of efficiency.

Most here that have an ashp have very low energy builds so need very little heat to maintain that 20/21 setpoint.

 

 Declan- with respect, I have a hugely more pressing situation than considering optimal CH systems for houses. This was not my dept.

 

Can you please, please cast an opinion on this intrusive noise (this one started again last night: its not the general overal noise complaint I had with the system during heating periods... its far far worse) that the box is making, during the "quiet" set-back overnight period?

 

I'm desperate now for help on this: anyone, any opinions, what could it be/ what possibly could it be doing?

 

 

 

thanks- zoot.

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You do get some funny things with heating systems.  Ine in particular I remember when I was working in a house , was the gas boiler, every few minutes would power up the fan in the boiler for just a few seconds then stop again. It was not particularly loud but that sort of thing would irritate me and leave me asking why is it doing that if it's not actuallt heating?  and you can be sure the manual does not state is is going to do that.

 

I suspect you are not going to find a solution that will make this particular system work well enough to heat your cold house through the winter and at the same time be quiet enough for your particular needs.  I suspect your best bet now is the "not fit for purpose" card and tell them to replace it with something that is fit for purpose.

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The pump will continue to run to allow the hot water in the system to be pumped round so it cools down. Turn it on during the day for 6/8 hrs to get the rooms up to temp then turn it off at the wall so the heat pump can't fire up at night. Then when you wake up turn it back on and let it run till your rooms are warm. 

The main problem you have is you got a system installed that won't work unless you run it 24/7. 

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4 hours ago, ProDave said:

You do get some funny things with heating systems.  Ine in particular I remember when I was working in a house , was the gas boiler, every few minutes would power up the fan in the boiler for just a few seconds then stop again. It was not particularly loud but that sort of thing would irritate me and leave me asking why is it doing that if it's not actuallt heating?  and you can be sure the manual does not state is is going to do that.

 

I suspect you are not going to find a solution that will make this particular system work well enough to heat your cold house through the winter and at the same time be quiet enough for your particular needs.  I suspect your best bet now is the "not fit for purpose" card and tell them to replace it with something that is fit for purpose.

 

 Hi ProDave- thanks for that. Up until last night, even though its not getting rads up/ Im sure something can be done about this, & even though the compressor is still very audible within the house.. bc the new pump is so much better, I was going to try starting the CH @ 6.30am: the compressor noise at the least starts off calmly & gradually increaces: maybe I could sleep thru it (not ideal tho/ the spare bedroom its in is still totally unfit to use as a bedroom now.. but its only me here, & the thing is foc of course). But now.. I'm forced back to square 1, having to turn huge mains switch off last thing at night, reaching right through a tight cupboard to get to it > then 7.30am when I wake, in very cold house, repeat turning it on.. due to this new far more intrusive noise issue started again last night (the 1st time its done it since new pump installed).

 

I wasn't aware, or told its designed to be on 24/7. I still find it bizarre you're forced to have rads on at night. Its not conjusive I can use it like this anyway, because of the compressor noise alone during rads on overnight is intrusive, hence, I put setback temp to 10* from 9pm to 7.30am.

 

But this new noise is entirely on a different level to the day-to-day running dull groan the system makes (Im actually getting a bit used to). Its level is exactly equivalent to the old 'loud' pumps too. So, its doing an overnight 'cycle', but, not even installers nor Vailant engineers know what it is, have ever known any other systems to do it, or say it should be doing whatever it is. Its flaming ridiculous.

 

I penned an email to installers saying I want this noise ID'd, fixed/ rid (ideally), or if its some cycle it has to do/ a neccessity, then must be moved to daytime, with proof it won't go on overnight.. or I said its unfit for purpose, to have this box unit, within the house upstairs. But its not their fault.. so i didn't send it. Cant email Vailant/ page doesn't work, call them again? hours I don't have, besides I'm told to call installers before Vailant. It is an absolutely rotten-to-the-core system in conclusion now & I'm close to demanding its removed asap. But what happens then? I cant afford a whole new system in its place. So it seems I'm stuffed/ stuck with it.

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4 hours ago, Declan52 said:

The pump will continue to run to allow the hot water in the system to be pumped round so it cools down. Turn it on during the day for 6/8 hrs to get the rooms up to temp then turn it off at the wall so the heat pump can't fire up at night. Then when you wake up turn it back on and let it run till your rooms are warm. 

The main problem you have is you got a system installed that won't work unless you run it 24/7. 

 

No Declan. The main problem I have by far- is this new noise started up again last night. It overrides any of the running issues discussed over last 2 days, by a factor of 10.

 

If you cannot go to bed without knowing the system will be off & not go on with sudden incessant motor noises for hours overnight.. you are stressed. If you are stressed.. you cannot fall asleep, or have a good nights' sleep. And after only a few days of this your day to day life is severely upset & compromised. And if you do manage to sleep.. & the damn thing wakes you up.. you are flaming angry, highly stressed, & unable to get back to sleep at all. So as it is, its not 'fine/ its your house/ its the way you run it'............. it is 1000% totally unfit for purpose.

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19 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

But its not their fault.. 

 

Under contract law (and you still have a contract as someone has paid for this on your behalf) the installer is at fault and it is up to them to put it right.

 

They are the ones who designed, sized and specced it, Vaillant just provide the kit. 

 

It is like buying a new car from a dealership and them telling you that any issues you need to go to Ford / Vauxhall / VW to fix it... You wouldn't, you would go to the garage, even if it was under warranty.

 

Email the installers, and also state you do not believe it is fit for purpose, and ask for a copy of the sizing calculations.

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17 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

No Declan. The main problem I have by far- is this new noise started up again last night. It overrides any of the running issues discussed over last 2 days, by a factor of 10.

 

If you cannot go to bed without knowing the system will be off & not go on with sudden incessant motor noises for hours overnight.. you are stressed. If you are stressed.. you cannot fall asleep, or have a good nights' sleep. And after only a few days of this your day to day life is severely upset & compromised. And if you do manage to sleep.. & the damn thing wakes you up.. you are flaming angry, highly stressed, & unable to get back to sleep at all. So as it is, its not 'fine/ its your house/ its the way you run it'............. it is 1000% totally unfit for purpose.

But if there is no electric going to the pump then it can't run and you can get some sleep. Will buy you some time to let the installers come out and try to fix the issues. Just let it sit for an HR after you heating turns of before you switch it off to allow it to cool down.

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28 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

But if there is no electric going to the pump then it can't run and you can get some sleep. Will buy you some time to let the installers come out and try to fix the issues. Just let it sit for an HR after you heating turns of before you switch it off to allow it to cool down.

 

Yes understood Declan. That's what I had to revert to last night.

 

At the moment, aside from this wretched noise, I'm still at a --total-- loss as to why I find no warms rads right now. Its been on at 18* all day. At 6pm I turn it up to 21. Right now, it says 18.5* & the rads have a -smidge- of warmth in the tops of them only, all of them, I'm cold/ the rooms are cold. The compressor isn't on (this is weird: 1st time Ive not heard it on, whilst the heating is on.. tho Ive little evidence now, that it is actually on at all).

 

Now call me an idiot, but if I ramp the temp up from 18* all day to 21*, after 45mins I expect the rads to simply be pretty toasty. But they're all mostly cold. Now you -still- think this is to be expected/ this is correct??

 

Utterly, totally, the most infuriating thing I have ever come across in my life.

 

Totally unfit for purpose (just this cold rads alone IMHO).

 

 

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7 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

I wonder what the outside temp was last night- perhaps the anti-freezing setpoint was reached?

But this is a split unit, so no water goes outside so there should be no need to do anything to "protect" it.

 

My own monoblock does indeed turn on the water circulation pump if the water temperature in the outside unit drops below 10 degrees. It circulates the water for perhaps a minute before switching off. It is in effect drawing a little heat out of the house to keep the water in the pipes warm.  This is not a documented feature and I have found no way to turn it off.

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3 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

Totally unfit for purpose (just this cold rads alone IMHO).

 

 

You really DO need to get the installers back and don't take no for an answer.  Have a written list of "issues" like cold radiators, unable to get the house to 20 degrees when it's only 5 degrees outside, noise issues, starting up in the night on it's own etc etc.

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21 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Totally unfit for purpose


I said this pages ago, @PeterW said this above. But you still keep asking questions about how YOU are going to sort it out. As said above you have a contract with however designed/installed it, get them to sort it out, that’s their job/responsibility. I designed and installed my own and it works very well but if I cocked it up I have no one to blame, YOU DO.

Edited by joe90
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And now, rads have just become hot within last 15mins, compressor on. 19*, house starting feeling better, dare I say it even beginnings of feeling warm (except kitchen/ bathroom, as I expect never to be warm).

 

Last night (during whole 25* test).. the rads did not -once- become this 'normal-hot', at any time from 6-9pm.

 

So there's a discrepency between the way it was working last night, & tonight.. plus.. some strange 1-hour delay after I punch in 21* for it to seemingly do anything.

 

 

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1 hour ago, ProDave said:

You really DO need to get the installers back and don't take no for an answer.  Have a written list of "issues" like cold radiators, unable to get the house to 20 degrees when it's only 5 degrees outside, noise issues, starting up in the night on it's own etc etc.

 

Yes that's well summed up ProDave. I diod get onto them today, one thing they said was 'we only just install it..' & I totally agreed, saying its Vailant, not you (this I'll say till cows come home even if you don't agree: who changed the pump? the installers? no, fact it was noisy -wasn't- their fault, obviously agreed by Vailant who changed it: if I'd just got onto installers about this, Id be sitting here with the same flippin pump.. so you gotta admit I do have some sort of a point, maybe? sometimes?).

 

But the installer was accomodating & said he & partner would visit, go thru xyz. I said thanks but tbh surely a waste of time, if a snr Vailant UK engineer I asked when here about it (2 of them, one going through the box to see too) concludes 'I don't know, it shouldn't do anything between 9pm-7.30am' & off he goes in his van.

 

Trouble is you cannot instigate it to do this 'cycle' thing/ you cannot prompt it to do it. Because you have no knowledge of what it is. Plus the Live Monitor just says 'standby' when its doing it. Plus it only happens 11pm-7am, so what's someone gonna do.. sit & wait for it-? so even if I get installers back... they can't possibly locate the wretched noise. The only thing (I said to the nice installer) is to get this enquiry off to Vailant (De) asap, for an answer as to wtf it is doing. THEN it might be possible the installers come here & do something to stop it, or shift it to daytime.

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1 hour ago, joe90 said:


I said this pages ago, @PeterW said this above. But you still keep asking questions about how YOU are going to sort it out. As said above you have a contract with however designed/installed it, get them to sort it out, that’s their job/responsibility. I designed and installed my own and it works very well but if I cocked it up I have no one to blame, YOU DO.

 

Joe, just read my post above this one please. There is no point getting installers here re. this noise, if they do not know what it is, or able to instigate it to do it. If I can only expect a certain no. of visits from them.. I don't wish to waste them scratching their heads for 1 hr.

 

First it needs to be identified as what it -could- be doing. If that's beyond snr Vailant engineers, it is beyond the installers too (unless they come here 3am coinciding with it happening).

 

Only Vailant (& Id say the designers by all accounts in head office/ germany) can possibly ID what this overnight cycle likely is. Then & only then, can something -I hope- be done to sort it out/ then it makes sense they relay info to the installers to come, or they bypass them & just send their own engineer as they did with the pump (& I SORTED THIS OUT BTW TOO BY MANY CALLS, TO VAILANT!).

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, ProDave said:

But this is a split unit, so no water goes outside so there should be no need to do anything to "protect" it.

 

My own monoblock does indeed turn on the water circulation pump if the water temperature in the outside unit drops below 10 degrees. It circulates the water for perhaps a minute before switching off. It is in effect drawing a little heat out of the house to keep the water in the pipes warm.  This is not a documented feature and I have found no way to turn it off.

 

That's good to read your opinion here ProDave. I was wondering if dpmiller was onto something.. Id have been stuffed if he were right, as the frequency of these episodes would ramp up the colder it gets.

 

I had 2 similar night noise episodes happen long before I put the CH on, so surely mild, therefore a low-temp registering/ tripping it to do some related cycle thing I think unlikely, if not can be ruled out altogether. A relief if so.

 

As to the installers- in fact they said they will come, try going thru manual they said, but its a hopeless excercise (re. the overnight motor noise). You see I don't want to exhaust their visits by a pointless hour spent here: when I do need them for something again, likely with this fiasco, it'll be less easy to persuade them out. Or I might even have a certain no.of call-outs. I ideally simply need to ID what it is doing, 1st.

 

thanks for your opinions. zH

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