My (rotten) ASHP. Update.

[PeterW]

Just now, zoothorn said:

 

I originally had a 5kW planned. But they changed to 7.5 just prior to fitting, actually to be on the safe side ~more or less the reasoning/ as cost was no issue to them. So I doubt the reason its perhaps not functioning effectively as it could, is that its undersized.

So who made the choice ..?? Surely the supplier did the calculations ..?? 

[zoothorn]

10 minutes ago, PeterW said:

I think the thermostat needs moving and you need to probably bite the bullet for a week or two and get the system running up to 21-22c from 7am-9pm and start to get the fabric of the building up to temperature. Without that, you are going to struggle to get any warmth into the house. 

 

I think that really only applies to structures that have a capacity to 'retain' warmth tho? good insulative properties? Like lets say a big f-o canadian log cabin might. My slate & mud 4 walls shell with its slab-on-clay floor, & voidy brick extentions.. I don't think have any capacity to retain warmth, at all. The thick stone walls -can- trap heat in ok I find, but only for very short time, cos I think the floor & rest of xyz just wallop in sooo much cold. These are just my 'feelings' of the place, 4 yrs here 24/7 almost 365 days each year.

 

My saving grace was my forest I could gather terrific softwood, super-dry, hard work but entirely foc log supply.. but whole forest just been felled ? which is ruinous for me. And heartbreaking cos my lovely walks 2x a day thru it too, now decemated.

[zoothorn]

11 minutes ago, PeterW said:

So who made the choice ..?? Surely the supplier did the calculations ..?? 

 

Good Q. Certainly not muggins: I was pushing for a 5kW! all the right folks came & evaluated, a very experienced surveyor who knew the system like the back of his hand explaining lord knows what to me of its workings at the time, so I really honestly don't think its too small.

 

Its only a small cottage really, new extention now added, yes, but the surveyor had his tape out in the top room. Just 1 medium rad they put in lower room he didn't account for, but I don't think likely to make much difference.

[joe90]

As I said many pages ago, it would appear the installation is not fit fir purpose. 

8 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

I think that really only applies to structures that have a capacity to 'retain' warmth tho? good insulative properties

That should have been taken into account when they did the heat requirement calculations, if they got that wrong then they have designed a system NOT  FIT FOR  PURPOSE.

[SteamyTea]

10 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

I think that really only applies to structures that have a capacity to 'retain' warmth tho? good insulative properties? Like lets say a big f-o canadian log cabin might. My slate & mud 4 walls shell with its slab-on-clay floor, & voidy brick extentions.. I don't think have any capacity to retain warmth, at all. The thick stone walls -can- trap heat in ok I find, but only for very short time, cos I think the floor & rest of xyz just wallop in sooo much cold. These are just my 'feelings' of the place, 4 yrs here 24/7 almost 365 days each year.

 

My saving grace was my forest I could gather terrific softwood, super-dry, hard work but entirely foc log supply.. but whole forest just been felled ? which is ruinous for me. And heartbreaking cos my lovely walks 2x a day thru it too, now decemated.

That is just one of the downside of burning wood to keep warm, it don't take long to use it all up.

If we decided to burn every years biomass growth of the entire planet (all plants and animals), we would, at current consumption rates, have about 400 days worth.

[joe90]

14 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

My saving grace was my forest

unfortunately, it was someone else’s forest, you were just lucky enough to enjoy it for a while.

[zoothorn]

1 minute ago, joe90 said:

As I said many pages ago, it would appear the installation is not fit fir purpose. 

That should have been taken into account when they did the heat requirement calculations, if they got that wrong then they have designed a system NOT  FIT FOR  PURPOSE.

 

Well the insulation chap came round & said it all had to be lined 1st, not happy with my main shell & upstairs walls (no consideration of the main shell floor- I can feel the biggest cold leaker; if they said that had to be done 1st.. Id have jumped at the chance if it was offered to do) so I had to plead with them to let it go ahead despite this.. & they relented. So some of its ineffectiveness is entirely my fault, but, it still should surely be able to get a warmish room (where controller/ thermostat is) heated more than 1 degree per hour... if its working correctly. Nothing dramatic outside @ 5.5*, been on all day up to 18* prior to dialing in 25* @ 6pm. Surely. I mean the btm of all the rads remained tepid-almost-cold.

 

Old skool Q but on the old rads, such a cold btm meant key in side/ let air out of rad. It can't be that with all rads seemingly feeling the same.. can it?

[zoothorn]

10 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

That is just one of the downside of burning wood to keep warm, it don't take long to use it all up.

If we decided to burn every years biomass growth of the entire planet (all plants and animals), we would, at current consumption rates, have about 400 days worth.

 

Yes, but if we didn't have families with 3, 4, or even 5 kids.. we could. But lets not go down that rabbithole! I was only burning discarded rotting-away timber anyway, I'm saving having any more ash trees feeled cos of me! I'm an english pig tree saviour.

[zoothorn]

10 minutes ago, joe90 said:

unfortunately, it was someone else’s forest, you were just lucky enough to enjoy it for a while.

 

MY forest.

[joe90]

4 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Old skool Q but on the old rads, such a cold btm meant key in side/ let air out of rad. It can't be that with all rads seemingly feeling the same.. can it?

No, rads cold at the TOP  need bleeding , rads cold at the bottom mean hot water has yet to fill the whole rad. (They heat from the top first as heat rises).

[PeterW]

So in a cottage that size I would expect a 12-16kw gas boiler, so that ASHP is working twice as hard and as long as a gas boiler. I don’t think it is running for long enough. 
 

By your comment above, does that mean you are getting some internal insulation added to the cottage...?

[MJNewton]

1 minute ago, joe90 said:

No, rads cold at the TOP  need bleeding , rads cold at the bottom mean hot water has yet to fill the whole rad. (They heat from the top first as heat rises).

 

... or sludge (but I do seem to recall Zoot saying they're new in this instance). 

[joe90]

1 minute ago, zoothorn said:

 

MY forest.

Then why did you fell all your trees?

 

2 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

[zoothorn]

3 minutes ago, PeterW said:

So in a cottage that size I would expect a 12-16kw gas boiler, so that ASHP is working twice as hard and as long as a gas boiler. I don’t think it is running for long enough. 
 

By your comment above, does that mean you are getting some internal insulation added to the cottage...?

 

So you mean I just need to run it for longer, bc that's the way it likes to be? or its working twice as hard bc it has too many rads to power?

 

No, there's just too much character in the main 'shell' sitroom, it would ruin it. I was offered it part of the whole CH shebang but said no: it would ruin the size of it too: its a gorgeous sized big room. Now if they'd only said 'we could do the floor' omg.. that would've been fab! but logistics of removing the old concrete prevented it being feasable from their pov I'd imagine.

[zoothorn]

8 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Then why did you fell all your trees?

 

 

No not my forest. I was just being an moody kid! my flippin fuel tho.. used to get 70kg easy, 4 long straight pines back from my ev walk on my shoulder 2x a week.. chopsaw it up, free firewood for 3 years. So upset. Forest so badly managed you see stacks of fallen trees just left interlocking, propped up, 5 years air drying to perfection. Kept me really fit too.

[zoothorn]

Can anyone shed any light.

 

Im just off to bed, the thing has shut down 9pm as usual, its on auto as mentioned, there is a crescent moon symbol. It is in its set back period. I expect it to shut-the-****-up until 7.30.

 

I go upstairs & the dreaded pump/ motor noise is going on/off/on/off 3 mins on 3 mins off!!!!!!! Never ending. A whirr you can still hear while its idling in its off 3mins state, ready at any moment to ramp up errrRRRRRRR again & its on again, off, on, off. A motor noise. Hours of it.

 

What the **** is it doing???!!!!! it is infuriating and means I cannot sleep, & in a stressed state (back to square bloody 1) waiting for it to go on, or stop, or start. Loud enough to disturb/ interrupt my sleep in the next room. I mentioned it did this a few times before overnight when its meant to be quiet, to vailant snr engineer "no idea, shouldn't do" but its doing the very same damn thing again. Its ruined this spare room/ totally damn ruined it being functional as a bedroom, for anyone at any age, completely.

 

This has now become intolerable. I cannot live with it. It has to go. I am so angry with this now.

[zoothorn]

Just had to turn the whole damn thing off/ huge big red switch. So no heating on at all tmrw am. But Im so stressed. I can easily hear it 3 rooms away, in the extention top room/ would even disturb me in there. Even with this new pump. It was 2x as bad with the old pump.

 

If I can't have confidence that it won't go on overnight, I cannot sleep restfully. If I can't sleep restfully, I cannot live with it.

 

Ive got hours more calls yet again to vailant. Im so sick of it. Im so sick of hearing 'weve never had anyone else complain'.. how on earth can this possibly, feasably, realistically be so?? Im sick of two engineers not knowing what its even doing when I explain its noise, the duration, the pattern, the repetitiveness. It cannot be just my system. Someone must know what it is. It cannot be replicated by either engineer either. The Live Monitor (which might just say "in anti-rubella mode" or whatever anti-disease hour it purportedly does once every few months.. or something/ anything to at least gu=ive me a clue to tell call handler, to relay to engineer) says Nothing but its in 'standby' mode.

 

Along with my infuriating neighbours creeping around my property at night & when my car's out putting & throwing dog dirt, and most recently actually thieving from my car whilst I'm in, only yards away, in broad daylight- yes no less.... this is as stressful & as infuriating/ and the two things are happening CONCURRENTLY. I just cannot fkng cope with this.

 

 

[Onoff]

You will not get anywhere with this issue, with the installer etc unless you document EVERYTHING with times and dates, in a clear and concise manner. You then need to convey that to them, in writing, ideally by email. I'd be say sending "them" a monthly summary at least.

 

Short term consider a white noise sleep machine. A friend has one to help drown out a neighbour's, sub normal kid, up all night gaming that they can hear through their bedroom wall. He said it helps.

 

As for your neighbours then it's CCTV evidence and the police along with environmental health ref the dog mess.

 

Maybe your neighbours don't like the noise of the ASHP? Pity you don't get on as complaints from them would add weight to your case. Perhaps they are staging a dirty / silent etc protest over it.

 

 

 

 

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, Onoff said:

You will not get anywhere with this issue, with the installer etc unless you document EVERYTHING with times and dates, in a clear and concise manner. You then need to convey that to them, in writing, ideally by email. I'd be say sending "them" a monthly summary at least.

 

Short term consider a white noise sleep machine. A friend has one to help drown out a neighbour's, sub normal kid, up all night gaming that they can hear through their bedroom wall. He said it helps.

 

As for your neighbours then it's CCTV evidence and the police along with environmental health ref the dog mess.

 

Maybe your neighbours don't like the noise of the ASHP? Pity you don't get on as complaints from them would add weight to your case. Perhaps they are staging a dirty / silent etc protest over it.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes documenting xyz (it was finally liveable-with, once the new pump in, I thought I could just about keep it) is a good idea. But for the fact that my mental health will now suffer if I cannot go to bed without knowing this f****ng pump/ motor might start up for 2 hours at 3AM. I can't sit waiting with ipad to record, waiting with notepad. I have to now shut it off when I go to bed. I have no choice.

 

No, outside the noise is no issue, not 10m away. N'bors house 60m away. My n'bors campaign is pure hatred due to one highly manipulative woman unhappy I turned down her (weirdly desperate) wanting to be friends, bc she was firing snipy comments (folks say she does this).

 

Anyone do the same, a normal reaction from me, many in vllg stay well clear of her. Some added anti-english yes, some anti-south (from him) yes, boredom both at 70 too... & a 'clever' nasty faeces throwing & placing game starts, for 3-1/2 yrs, a month ago increacing to dog dirt plus theft (same instance/ same trespass) from my car, 6m away from me when my back turned. That audacious. A prior similar item missing I suspected her of, similar area, now confirmed. A daring game to her/ them/ giggle & denying at me when I holloered at them accusing them face to face once. This (theft esp) causes huge insecurity for sleeping recently.. the last thing I need is this damn system causing more stress on top.

 

But thanks for thoughts Onoff, will take on board.

[zoothorn]

Turned heating/ system on 6.50am to desired 21*. It was showing 14.5* (outside temp 2.5*, frost outside 1st time).

 

Its 9.20 now, so been on 2.5hrs. Its showing 16.5*. So obviously I barely have a house feeling warm.

 

Now that I find alarmingly low a figure it reached, after 2.5hrs (Ive heard compressor on continually, as expected). It tallies with what I found last night, similar 2.5 hrs timeframe similar 2* increace. I find the rads barely warm right now, the btms pretty cold: --this-- is the thing I find most obviously incorrect.

 

Ok, if I put in 21*, and it was 14.5* to start.. I'd expect the system to go at a good whack, in order to achieve the 21* as soon as it could. I can't envisage a heating system not having this pg1 "aim" (IE I cant envisage a system will aim to achieve 21* not quickly, instead over 8 hours, at such a leisurely pace it puts rads barely on to 'warm-top / cold btms'. I just do not believe it).

 

**The only way it can can work I'd expect, in order to go at a decent enough pace, to get up to 21*, in good time, is to get the rads temp up >> keep them there >> until 21* reached (then it can go into standby, until temp drops a bit, can dip in & out every so often).

 

Right. a Question: is **this expectation reasonable?

[SteamyTea]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

I'd expect the system to go at a good whack, in order to achieve the 21* as soon as it could

If you are used to a gas or oil burner you would expect that.

But this is a heat pump, they are designed to work at below there maximum rated power (a bit like a car is used, not often you drive it at maximum power).

The reason for this is it is more efficient i.e. the CoP stays higher, so costs less to run.

Now you refuse to let it run for very long, so what you are, in effect doing, it doing a very long car journey, stopping every few minutes, and only using third gear.

Then complaint that it takes forever and you have not reached the top speed of the car.

I take it that because of your condition, you are currently not allowed to drive, so this analogy my be pointless.

Edited November 4, 2020 by SteamyTea

[PeterW]

You have essentially 3 standard oil rads trying to heat a house - it is not going to be quick and in reality it will only increase if input exceeds losses. You need to understand the basic idea that :

 

temp increase = current temp - losses + input 

 

So your system can only put in say 2 degree per hour, but you’re losing 1 degree per hour, so net is 1 degree increase per hour. 
 

You run it for 3 hours and it is going to get to 17.5c, but then start to decline when it goes off. What you need to do is run it for a while to get it up to temperature and it stays at that for a day or two. Only then can you start to dial down the settings. 
 

As you also have a wood burner it may also be worth getting that lit and running it for a good while to help the background heat levels and stop the heat pump having to do the heavy lifting. All this will help. 

 

[zoothorn]

56 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

I take it that because of your condition, you are currently not allowed to drive, so this analogy my be pointless.

 

A personal insult? well, just what I need thank you ST. charming reply.

 

A personal insult.

[SteamyTea]

Or a quip.

[zoothorn]

54 minutes ago, PeterW said:

You have essentially 3 standard oil rads trying to heat a house - it is not going to be quick and in reality it will only increase if input exceeds losses. You need to understand the basic idea that :

 

temp increase = current temp - losses + input 

 

So your system can only put in say 2 degree per hour, but you’re losing 1 degree per hour, so net is 1 degree increase per hour. 
 

You run it for 3 hours and it is going to get to 17.5c, but then start to decline when it goes off. What you need to do is run it for a while to get it up to temperature and it stays at that for a day or two. Only then can you start to dial down the settings. 
 

As you also have a wood burner it may also be worth getting that lit and running it for a good while to help the background heat levels and stop the heat pump having to do the heavy lifting. All this will help. 

 

 

Good points as always Peter. Ok I understand it a bit more then- in actuality it seems completely the wrong system for me, but the surveyors didn't know that, I didn't know that, nor installers.

 

I can't run it for the time its meant to, IE continually on, as Ive explained it is pretty obviously -only- designed so to be used, including overnight (how anyone wants heating on overnight- is utterly beyond comprehension, cost-effectiveness, and eco too)......... because the unit inside is too noisy. I have to put a set-back overnight in, due to the intrusive noise. As Ive explained.

 

--

 

Peter. Can you shed any light on this wretched situation last night I found. The inside unit, although in its overnight setback period, came on (no compressor/ heating input/ no vibrating 2 pipes into it/ outside compressor not active) alone, and for a period of hours, ramping up its motor 3mins on/ off, idle/ on off, idle minimum 1hour continuosly (this damn situation it is as loud as the previous pump doing the same wretched thing, similarly overnight- and the most intrusive noise- so this mode/ at this juncture, is quite obviously very different to its normal heating period mode when its active in conjunction with the outside compressor, a continual milder noise [no off/on/off affair] & alot better than the old pump in this heating mode).

 

I need to try & consider what it is doing. What could such a unit (the noise specifically pinpointed to a motor within in) possibly be doing overnight, on its own, going on/off/on/off/on, for minimum 1 hour, during the setback off time of 9pm [10*, auto, crescent moon on controller] overnight period?

 

It seems to do this approximately 1x a month. A very approx guess (it might have done it say at 5AM I was unaware of, possibly, having slept thru it.. tho loud enough I doubt it). Its not tied to a specific time, 11pm last night (no idea when it started, I was in kitchen all ev), 6am once before, 3am once before that. All during the overnight time I'm told it should NOT make any noise due to its setback setting.

 

Can you think what it could, conceivably, be doing? thx zoot

Edited November 4, 2020 by zoothorn