My (rotten) ASHP. Update.

[ProDave]

It's all done with a conventional central heating type programmer.

 

It comes on at 6AM to ensure it's warmed up by the time we typically get up about 8AM

[joe90]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

It goes off at 9PM and comes back on at 6AM

if I remember correctly (and @ProDave will correct me if wrong) he has his ASHP off at night to be a completely silent Household. With the insulation he has it will take many hours for the house temp to drop (like mine) so does not have to wait hours for it to warm up in the morning. This is the difference between a well insulated house and one that is not. The structure acts like a large storage heater.

[zoothorn]

4 hours ago, joe90 said:

if I remember correctly (and @ProDave will correct me if wrong) he has his ASHP off at night to be a completely silent Household. With the insulation he has it will take many hours for the house temp to drop (like mine) so does not have to wait hours for it to warm up in the morning. This is the difference between a well insulated house and one that is not. The structure acts like a large storage heater.

 

Yes understood joe. So, that suggests ProDave's makes at the least some noise within the house too-? Yes I do understand my house is poorly insulated, bar the new extension, compared to I'm sure both your houses. But regardless of how well insulated the house is, if the unit is off for 8 hrs its off. Cold house or warmer house, the outside unit resides in the same place, &, the inside unit won't get up to speed any quicker just bc its sitting in a slightly warmer place @ 6AM ProDave's house vs mine. Both will still take the same time to fire up the system > feed the rads.

 

But you see since its been installed we haven't had even a cold period. Its been constantly mild since late august with o'night temp outside only getting to 4* on just two nights.. my inside temp (where thermostat is) not going below Id say 15* overnight, which might be on a par with a well insulated house overnight in a cold period. But even so, if I have my day temp set to 18* (I like as a default 'ambient' temp) the damn thing has to keep this temp overnight too -in order to be in a decent standby mode to get rads up to speed in 1 hr 1st thing- meaning it wakes up, & wakes me up overnight. There's no extra setting I can put it to for 'overnight' mode to for eg 14*. Why? bc it doesn't like being in this hibernatatative state: so Vailant just go without a setting for overnight/ they just don't let you do it. That's nuts. I don't want rads on at all overnight, but Vailant say I have to.

 

When the cold comes.. that's where the difference seen: ProDave's will take 2 hrs to get to speed, but only need a few dips-in to maintain a nice temp during day.. whereby mine will similarly take 2 hrs to get to speed, but will need many dips-in to maintain a nice temp. Ive yet to know how my system performs, here, when its cold.

[SteamyTea]

18 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

There's no extra setting I can put it to for 'overnight' mode to for eg 14*. Why?

Isn't that set on the thermostat.

In the olded days, these were very basic, bi-metalic strips that just turned off at a set temperature, then turned on again when the room had dropped a couple of degrees.  For some reason they were often placed in a cold and drafty hallway.

There was usually a secondary timer used to set the on off times.  These where mechanical as well, and you had to pull or push pins in or out.

 

These days they have electronic units that can be set up for different temperatures at different times, and even different settings for weekends.  They are often wireless and can have other sensors attached to them, wirelessly.

It is this unit that can be used to set different temperatures at different times, and by setting the 'set back' temperature very low, effectively turn the ASHP off.

 

Do you have one of these?

If so, send a picture of it or the make and model number.

Edited October 31, 2020 by SteamyTea

[ProDave]

Yes the only noise I hear from mine is the gentle hum of the water circulating pump.  That is the same type of water circulating pump you would use with a gas or an oil boiler, so the noise would be the same regardless of what heating system you had, and is not a heat pump issue.  It does not bother me asleep and it does not wake me up in the morning, but at night i prefer to go to sleep in a silent house without even that low level noise.

 

My controls are simple.  A normal type of central heating time clock to set what times the heating and hot water functions are on (can be set to different times) and a room thermostat in each room.

 

If you wanted to profile it for different temperatures in different rooms at different times of day or night, you would simply have a programmable thermostat or just a master programmable thermostat instead of the time clock.

 

I suspect the issue here is you got a basic install by a team of fitters that just do basic installs.  If tou want better more versatile controls perhaps you are going to have to pay someone better to change things?

[joe90]

Well my ASHP (heating) has not come on yet this year, the house hovers around 20’, thats insulation and airtightness for you!!!

[SteamyTea]

1 minute ago, joe90 said:

and airtightness for you

And just think how much better it would have been if you had had all your windows sealed they way you wanted.

 

[Onoff]

21 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Both will still take the same time to fire up the system > feed the rads.

 

I don't think that's quite right. A well insulated house will heat up quicker and stay like it for longer.

 

A draughty old place like yours (and mine), well heat is pissing out of the fabric at multiple points AS you're heating it up. Whatever heating system has to stay on longer to get to and then maintain the temperature periodically. 

 

Your ASHP will be on for much longer periods and therefore more noticeable.

[SteamyTea]

4 minutes ago, Onoff said:

A well insulated house will heat up quicker and stay like it for longer.

Depends on the size of the heat pump and radiators.

4 minutes ago, Onoff said:

Your ASHP will be on for much longer periods and therefore more noticeable

Not necessarily, may be more noticeably when it turns off.  This does really depend on how noisy it is, and how sensitive the occupants are to the noise.

I cannot stay in a place with barking dogs or crying babies, wailing women and dot matrix printers.

[ProDave]

19 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Well my ASHP (heating) has not come on yet this year, the house hovers around 20’, thats insulation and airtightness for you!!!

And a mild climate.Mine has been on for a month.

[zoothorn]

5 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Yes the only noise I hear from mine is the gentle hum of the water circulating pump.  That is the same type of water circulating pump you would use with a gas or an oil boiler, so the noise would be the same regardless of what heating system you had, and is not a heat pump issue.  It does not bother me asleep and it does not wake me up in the morning, but at night i prefer to go to sleep in a silent house without even that low level noise.

 

My controls are simple.  A normal type of central heating time clock to set what times the heating and hot water functions are on (can be set to different times) and a room thermostat in each room.

 

If you wanted to profile it for different temperatures in different rooms at different times of day or night, you would simply have a programmable thermostat or just a master programmable thermostat instead of the time clock.

 

I suspect the issue here is you got a basic install by a team of fitters that just do basic installs.  If tou want better more versatile controls perhaps you are going to have to pay someone better to change things?

 

ProDave I had 2 Vailant engineers in. Both said "there's no 3rd setting, meaning you cant have an overnight setting". Its nothing to do with my installers, the fact that the system is lacking in one fundamental design.. but seems to have a myriad of other settings & complications.

 

A snr Vaillant UK engineer was here, to try & tweak the compressor to make less noise (no change whatsoever).. and.. helped set the damn thing as very best he could so it wouldn't wake me up & put in basic settings (its so damn complicated). He asked what I wanted, which basically was 2 blocks of rads AM & PM, old skool, that's it please Mr. He said it doesn't quite work that way but best idea is to put one loooong block of rads-on @ 7.30 am > 9pm, then using the knob I dial in say 21* after I wake up & then when I go out at 9, remember to spin it back down again. The set-back temp is 18*, he set, because I found this a good daytime 'ambient' temp. So I get in @ 6pm & turn knob up to 21*, or 20*... & rads come on, & automatically go off at 9pm.

 

Right great i say, now Mr can you just set the overnight temp please. No, it doesn't have one. Eh? why not? (no straight answer- I find out the answer myself 2 weeks later). But I can put the set back temp overnight to very low, say 10*.. he says. And this is how its set.

 

Its not -meant- to be used like this. Its designed to be on overnight just as it is in the day, so, its always primed ready to get rads up to speed in 1 hr. Obviously its like my naim amp.. likes to be on & warm (& lit logo is cool). This is the answer I find out myself. Why he said there's no 3rd setting, & how there seems to be 2 setback settings when he said there was only 1, Ive no idea. Its too complicated for me & its own good.

 

 

 

[ProDave]

The basic "control" into the heat pump is heating on or heating off.  That is the only "control input" that my ASHP has.

 

From that you can derive any operating mode you want.  I chose simple time control with a programmer and simple fixed temperature room thermostats.  but you could instead have one or more programable room thermostats that would set different temperatures at different times of day.

 

You seem stuck with people that do it their way and are not open to making changes so it suits what you want. Hence why I suggest you might try someone else.

 

You would be surprised how many times I have to go and sort out the wiring of heating systems that are not operating as the customer wants because so many installers to be honest don't actually understand what they are doing.

[zoothorn]

21 minutes ago, Onoff said:

 

I don't think that's quite right. A well insulated house will heat up quicker and stay like it for longer.

 

A draughty old place like yours (and mine), well heat is pissing out of the fabric at multiple points AS you're heating it up. Whatever heating system has to stay on longer to get to and then maintain the temperature periodically. 

 

Your ASHP will be on for much longer periods and therefore more noticeable.

 

 I'm specifically not talking about the house here. I'm specifically just talking basic physics.

 

ProDave's fan unit is outside. So is mine. So we have an exact same time it takes this unit to fanny around & do its thing > passing its squished doings into the wall. From here & onto the boiler (& no further) is all I am referring to, with regard to a parity-of-sorts between his & mine. The only difference between his boiler being fed from his big fanny, and mine, is his boiler might be in a slightly warmer room. But the time difference it takes to get up to speed.. vs mine is negligeable (in order then to pass on to cylinder, but this onwards part & then onwards further to the rads I'm not referring to). A very small difference maybe. But a parity-of-sorts. Up to this juncture.

 

Onwards- yes, of course there's a big difference & insulation & air tightness/ his place to mine.

 

But the innitial get the boiler up to speed.. will be almost if not exactly the same.

[PeterW]

Can you take a photo @zoothorn of this controller please on the inside unit or the thermostat and post it here ..?

 

Can everyone bear in mind this is NOT a monoblock ASHP but a split unit so in the house there is a unit that will make more noise than just a circulation pump. You can’t compare the two as being as silent as each other. 

[zoothorn]

11 minutes ago, ProDave said:

The basic "control" into the heat pump is heating on or heating off.  That is the only "control input" that my ASHP has.

 

From that you can derive any operating mode you want.  I chose simple time control with a programmer and simple fixed temperature room thermostats.  but you could instead have one or more programable room thermostats that would set different temperatures at different times of day.

 

You seem stuck with people that do it their way and are not open to making changes so it suits what you want. Hence why I suggest you might try someone else.

 

You would be surprised how many times I have to go and sort out the wiring of heating systems that are not operating as the customer wants because so many installers to be honest don't actually understand what they are doing.

 ProDave I don't have the luxury or money to get someone else.

 

I have had vailant senior engineers put in what this system -not your, yours sounds well designed- can best do. Getting in another installer cannot change the fact that Vailant have designed it to be this way, to not have an extra setting for overnight, & therefore (for some bizarre reason) its meant to be on overnight exactly as it is during the day. I put this to the engineer, I said I think this is what Ive concluded, that it is designed -only- to work this way hence no overnight mode.... & he agreed yes correct. He also admitted its a failing (of sorts) of it. Cannot be changed. Cannot set the thing to go into sleep overnight mode. Its not that another installer can do it/ he can't/ bc its just not available.

[PeterW]

8 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

But the innitial get the boiler up to speed.. will be almost if not exactly the same.

That isn’t true - they are totally different. The size of the units, type of unit (split vs monoblock) and the heating media (rads vs UFH) mean these are two completely different set ups. 
 

The issue here is one of controls - which is what we need to focus on. 

[dpmiller]

we know that the Mfr's controllers tend to be pretty sh*t too, whether Vaillant, Carrier, Samsung/ whatever. @ProDave is using good old-fashioned "heat for me now" control.

 

Time to stick a simple stat in series with the stoopid programmer...

 

[zoothorn]

6 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Can you take a photo @zoothorn of this controller please on the inside unit or the thermostat and post it here ..?

 

Can everyone bear in mind this is NOT a monoblock ASHP but a split unit so in the house there is a unit that will make more noise than just a circulation pump. You can’t compare the two as being as silent as each other. 

 

Yes of course/ will do tmrw (but a warning: this conroller thing is like a tardis, I'm scared of it, & has been super-tweaked by vailant snr engineer.. its not to be dicked with). I don't think PD or me are neccessarily comparing noise levels- this isn't really a feasable exercise.

 

But ASHP's must share basics. A big fan, & a compressor near it > feeds into the house > into a boiler. I think that's consistant with both?

[PeterW]

3 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

But ASHP's must share basics. A big fan, & a compressor near it > feeds into the house > into a boiler. I think that's consistant with both?

NO..!! This is not the same. Not all units have the internal “boiler” as you describe it. A Monoblock unit has all those parts in the same unit outside and just water flows into the house. Yours uses refrigerant to transfer between inside and outside not water. 
 

 

[zoothorn]

6 minutes ago, PeterW said:

That isn’t true - they are totally different. The size of the units, type of unit (split vs monoblock) and the heating media (rads vs UFH) mean these are two completely different set ups. 
 

The issue here is one of controls - which is what we need to focus on. 

 No my point is miossed, again.

 

Ok we have the same unit. Same slpit arotherm whatever XB2. A hyperthetical.

 

Only difference: his boiler is in a cupboard a few degrees warmer than mine. Will there be any difference in the boiler getting up to speed ready to feed the cylinder? very marginally perhaps.. but for all intents & purposes- no/ pretty much the same.

 

Its only onwards from the boiler, the storing HW in the cylinder/ the room temp this is in, the immediate environment the pipes & the rads are in.. all the xyz insulation aspects & air tightness, its only --here-- we can say YES big difference between PD's house (with arotherm split XB2) and mine (with arotherm split XB2).. his rads on infrequently, mine on frequently etc etc.

 

But up to here/ before its passed onwards from the boiler.. pretty much identical time taken, modern house to older house.

 

This is only what I'm commenting on.

 

My kettle doesn't take any difference in time to boil 1L of water between being plugged in my bedroom as it might my (colder) UT room.

[zoothorn]

27 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

we know that the Mfr's controllers tend to be pretty sh*t too, whether Vaillant, Carrier, Samsung/ whatever. @ProDave is using good old-fashioned "heat for me now" control.

 

Time to stick a simple stat in series with the stoopid programmer...

 

 

Afaik its got a stat in the controller, &, you can put old skool timed block timed periods in. Trouble is its got so much extra that overrides this n that, its even got a flamin outside stat which adjusts (that means it dicks with it) settings too.

 

The one thing is seems to deliberately not have, is an overnight period. I think in germany it is determined from birth you sleep in a warm room 'same as the day' so the engineer brain section is perfectly formed at 17 yrs. Only apes, english pigs, & tent people sleep in cold rooms.

[PeterW]

The outside stat is quite useful as it will control the running of the unit. 
 

What would be useful is to know what you want it to do. When do you want the rads on and off, and when do you want the hot water on and off. 
 

From that, it can be programmed. 

[MJNewton]

18 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

Afaik its got a stat in the controller, &, you can put old skool timed block timed periods in. Trouble is its got so much extra that overrides this n that, its even got a flamin outside stat which adjusts (that means it dicks with it) settings too.

 

The one thing is seems to deliberately not have, is an overnight period. I think in germany it is determined from birth you sleep in a warm room 'same as the day' so the engineer brain section is perfectly formed at 17 yrs. Only apes, english pigs, & tent people sleep in cold rooms.

 

From some of the clues you've mentioned, is this your controller?

 

 

(Vaillant VRT350F, with the instruction manual here)

 

18 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Only apes, english pigs, & tent people sleep in cold rooms.

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by MJNewton

[PeterW]

If it is that unit then it will be interesting to see what it is actually set to 

[zoothorn]

8 hours ago, PeterW said:

If it is that unit then it will be interesting to see what it is actually set to 

 

Yes thanks to MJN.. that's the unit in Q.

 

I'm not saying this unit's rotten, but it is stupidly complicated, & lacking in the overnight setting afaict (& told). The front display is good/ simple enough: like mine you can see its ^ on auto (no timed block periods), the outside temp, big number inside temp, & desired temp. Warning: the manual for this, their engineer told me was not fit for purpose- its like a bible, &, badly translated from german.. almost impossible to use.

 

You swizzle its knob during auto (mine 7.30 am > 9pm) at any time to adjust your desired temp. It has a set-back "day" temp on mine put to 18*. So when I wake 7.30 (when it wakes me) its either at 21* already, because it carries over whatever temp it was on b4 it shut down at 9pm, or 18* if I got fed up with noise at 8.30pm night before & ramped it down. So when I go out AM woodland foraging for stoats & grubs, I try to remember to swizzle the knob so is down again. When I come in late PM, I swizzle my knob up again.

 

The Vailant engineer did all these settings for me, 1st asking what I wanted (plus suggesting xyz instead, I agreed to), including 2x HW periods, just sufficient for my minimal useage, 12-1pm and 5-6pm. He went into flow temps & checked all inner workings. Lastly I asked for overnight period.. no its not got one he said/ not designed to work like this ("got no 3rd setting" were his words) but, I'll put in a set-back temp between 9pm and 7.30am @ 10* he said. So its unlikely to go on overnight is the idea [unless temp drops below 10.. likely in this house in jan.. & unless it just goes on out the blue at 6am, as it did 2x, reasons even engineers had no clue as to why].. but he doesn't usually do this; bc for reasons unknown, others' systems don't wake them up & need a low overnight temp afaict. Another plus for their engineers I should add.

 

I put HW temp to 55*.. suggested by installers on phone. So that's what I have.