Extension- Last Stuff.

[PeterW]

1 hour ago, pocster said:

Of course if bleeding the rads is the issue ( or a contributing factor ) he might then need to top it up via the refill loop ... dare we open Pandora’s box 2 ?

Can’t we have more unrelated door stuff - that seemed to be moving in the right direction 

When there are going to be issues with red bleeding I tend to recommend these

 

HV30 Aladdin Self Bleeding Automatic Radiator Valve 1/2" BSP Single Valve https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B019395RHY/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_fabc_jFQcGbVSGWHJH?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

 

 

[zoothorn]

@PeterW (I knew you'd come back for more..?).

 

I've only come to the conclusion (that it has been installed badly after all) a week ago, when installers, after 7 months of me harranging & finally 'threatening' (whatever you iirc suggested I ultimately do) paid off, & they finally came fixed the leak. woohoo! etc

 

But until this fixed I had no reason to know it was an install error not water "normally exiting" (they told me to expect 'some'). And as rads working afaict well enough, regardless of the obvious mfr issues of 1) their wretched delayed start AM, & 2) the wretched heating coming on overnight....... up until 1 week ago, nothing said to me installer errors ONLY 2x mfr errors.

 

You guys were/ are saying " NO!! it's installer errors xyz since it went in.. not fot fir pirpoise due to the installation ". I understand this pov, but I don't agree with it: I am not oblidged to agree with it: it doesn't mean it's fruitless or I'm throwing it out dismissively. No.

 

I could only agree it was not fot fir porpoise, due to mfr reasons, not installion reasons (& I still hold to this, even if I know a week ago 1x minor 'schoolboy' install error all along) & even tho I totally understand your pov that the house's R values were not properly evaluated hence poor performance, giving logic to pointing at installion/ installers.

 

But you see the rads' sizes are partially determined & constrained by the space they can physically go, as explained to me on installion, & so I expected (& agreed/ knew of) a compromise, the kitchen + bathroom rads wouldn't be quite as big as they should be. But 12.7*C at 8am.... by a rad 2/3rds the size it should be.... = summink far bigger is wrong. So we agree summink wrong.. but we disagree on cause; I say its mfr issue (delay thing I'm onto Vaillant) & you disagree & saying it's ONLY the installer putting in rads in that are hugely undersized.

 

TBH I can't understand why you'd not point at Vaillant's stuff, & you can't understand why I'm not pointing solely at installers! (but maybe you can see my pov after this explanation- doubt it as Ive tried & tried). It's healthy enough to disagree!

 

 

 

[zoothorn]

15 hours ago, Onoff said:

You should really tbh go round once a year at least and bleed your rads as a matter of course. 

 

The new rads might have come with keys, often little plastic ones. Any left over bits anywhere?

 

Understand this yearly basic service. But don't expect to after a new install. I do expect this sort of pg1 purge system of air, is absolutely fundamental to installing it. I think its only bc you collectively are determined to piont twds installer errors.. that this is being suggested (& I'm at fault for not manually doing summink bleedingly [i thank you] obvious).

[Onoff]

2 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

Understand this yearly basic service. But don't expect to after a new install. I do expect this sort of pg1 purge system of air, is absolutely fundamental to installing it. I think its only bc you collectively are determined to piont twds installer errors.. that this is being suggested (& I'm at fault for not manually doing summink bleedingly [i thank you] obvious).

 

Tbf to the installers, if you drove them as nuts as you do me they might well have missed some basic install checks such was their hurry to vacate the premises!

[zoothorn]

4 hours ago, Onoff said:

 

 

I'm already regretting popping that radiator key in the post to you this morning. 

 

 

 

No you don't- I will try your suggestion! appreciated.

 

But its like a 7 month ongoing addominable problem I have, doctors all tremendously qualified all helpfully vying for opinion, all of which relevant & kind & I'm lying there listening & say my pov that 'it's here it hurts' (but told shut the fk up your the patient we know best :-). months of wrangling, ideas, locums out, 8x private appts from lands afar. I say my piece again (told 'shut up fkwit'! ok ok already). Same tum probs remain. 7 months. very sore tum, no difference all things tried by now. And 53 pages later, 1 wiseguy comes along. and says..

 

tried doing a fart?

[PeterW]

9 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

You guys were/ are saying " NO!! it's installer errors xyz since it went in.. not fot fir pirpoise due to the installation ". I understand this pov, but I don't agree with it: I am not oblidged to agree with it: it doesn't mean it's fruitless or I'm throwing it out dismissively. No.

Ok - I bow to your expert opinion and deprecate my own, I apologise but stand by my point that this is surveyor and installer error. 

 

10 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

But you see the rads' sizes are partially determined & constrained by the space they can physically go, as explained to me on installion, & so I expected (& agreed/ knew of) a compromise, the kitchen + bathroom rads wouldn't be quite as big as they should be. But 12.7*C at 8am.... by a rad 2/3rds the size it should be.... = summink far bigger is wrong. So we agree summink wrong.. but we disagree on cause; I say its mfr issue (delay thing I'm onto Vaillant) & you disagree & saying it's ONLY the installer putting in rads in that are hugely undersized.

That’s bollocks. The surveyor and installer have installed a system not fit for purpose if the rads are incorrectly sized. 
 

So now you admit you knew they were wrong and there is a compromise - pointless me and @MJNewton continuing here as the kitchen and bathroom will never be hot if the rads are wrong. (Ergo, this is a system not fit for purpose to quote @joe90)

 

We disagree on cause because you do not understand heating systems, and I and others do. And you’re not prepared to accept this, which I refer to my first point. 

 

14 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

TBH I can't understand why you'd not point at Vaillant's stuff, & you can't understand why I'm not pointing solely at installers! (but maybe you can see my pov after this explanation- doubt it as Ive tried & tried). It's healthy enough to disagree!

Vaillant kit may make a noise they are trying to fix, but to give you a little analogy, with their kit and the undersized rads you are trying to break the land speed record in a fart powered go-cart. It doesn’t matter how much heat the system kicks out, if the rads are undersized then they will never heat the rooms. The reason it’s coming on overnight is because to heat the house with the rads that are too small, it needs to run for longer. That is basic laws of physics and thermodynamics which I am very sure you will also disagree with. 
 

The big issue - as usual - is we have been trying to fix a problem with half the information. And now it comes to light that kitchen and bathroom are not correctly sized, and you knew this from the installation ..??!! Would have been helpful to know, as I’m sure we could have just focused on getting your one bedroom rad to the correct heat because the rest is utterly pointless. 

I wish you luck fixing the unfixable.
 

@MJNewton if you carry on with this I’ll speak to the palace and see if I can get that knighthood conferred to a Peerage... 

 

[joe90]

@zoothorn, @PeterW even went out of his way to contact Vaillant for the information he posted up regarding those diagrams, they did not want to give him access to their technical library and he told them that he was in a position to recommend to his architects their equipment but was unlikely too if they refused access to their technical site. You really are an ungrateful @@@@ .

[Onoff]

Going back over 20 years now and when we moved in there was no heating in our 4 upstairs dormer rooms. Downstairs was all rads on the old single pipe system. I went down to Wickes and picked up one of their "Good Idea" leaflets. The predecessor of this:

 

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/8269372/choosing-fitting-central-heating-radiators-wickes

 

I MAY have the original leaflet somewhere at home.

 

Anyway, it's a dead simple guide.

 

1) Work out your room's volume.

 

2) Calculate the nominal heat output in BTU/HR or Watts

 

3) There's then various factors to take into account for that nominal heat output; for ceilings over 3m height add 20% for a North facing aspect add 10% and so on.

 

4) You end up with a figure then select the nearest rad to your requirements from the table in the link. If a single's too wide to fit or you don't like the space it takes up, you go for a double with the required output etc. From memory I went one above the nearest. End result is my 4 upstairs rooms are toasty warm when the rads are on. Given that the losses through the fabric are a pain but they clearly give enough heat to heat the rooms.

 

I'd suggest you do the same excercise with what you have fitted. First measure your rads with a tape and take a stab at what BTU it gives out by comparing a similar size rad on the chart. That's the real easy bit.

 

Then, room by room do the calcs and see what BTU is required. See if the rad output is enough. 

 

You will at least have some idea then if the installer has been duly diligent in sizing the rads you've got.

 

 

Edited January 22, 2021 by Onoff

[Onoff]

11 minutes ago, joe90 said:

@@@@

 

Begins with C.

[Pocster]

8 minutes ago, Onoff said:

 

Begins with C.

Carp ? Fishing insults can be quite upsetting ! . I’m often called this ?

[Pocster]

Just a wild thought ! 
 

Are we all certain there are actual radiators installed ? . Not just ‘ in a box ‘ not getting to temperature.

When you remove the likely only the unlikely remains ...

[Pocster]

I like to be helpful .

So buy 5 of any of these and stick 1 in each room - problem solved !!

 

https://www.argos.co.uk/sd/electric-heater/

 

< bows gracefully as the crowd clap >

[Onoff]

6 minutes ago, pocster said:

Carp ? Fishing insults can be quite upsetting ! . I’m often called this ?

 

Pollack!

[joe90]

15 minutes ago, Onoff said:

 

Begins with C.

fill in as you feel appropriate!

[Declan52]

39 minutes ago, Onoff said:

Going back over 20 years now and when we moved in there was no heating in our 4 upstairs dormer rooms. Downstairs was all rads on the old single pipe system. I went down to Wickes and picked up one of their "Good Idea" leaflets. The predecessor of this:

 

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/8269372/choosing-fitting-central-heating-radiators-wickes

 

I MAY have the original leaflet somewhere at home.

 

Anyway, it's a dead simple guide.

 

1) Work out your room's volume.

 

2) Calculate the nominal heat output in BTU/HR or Watts

 

3) There's then various factors to take into account for that nominal heat output; for ceilings over 3m height add 20% for a North facing aspect add 10% and so on.

 

4) You end up with a figure then select the nearest rad to your requirements from the table in the link. If a single's too wide to fit or you don't like the space it takes up, you go for a double with the required output etc. From memory I went one above the nearest. End result is my 4 upstairs rooms are toasty warm when the rads are on. Given that the losses through the fabric are a pain but they clearly give enough heat to heat the rooms.

 

I'd suggest you do the same excercise with what you have fitted. First measure your rads with a tape and take a stab at what BTU it gives out by comparing a similar size rad on the chart. That's the real easy bit.

 

Then, room by room do the calcs and see what BTU is required. See if the rad output is enough. 

 

You will at least have some idea then if the installer has been duly diligent in sizing the rads you've got.

 

 

Google makes it even easier. You do a quick search and there are hundreds of companies online where you enter the room details and they work out all out for you.

[zoothorn]

@PeterW with respect..

 

It's coming on overnight because there's a mfr error (I'm told by Vaillant so). How can you now say, nope it's coming on overnight in compensation bc 2 rads are smaller than they needed to be-? this seems a brand new theory; does it somehow know the room sizes concluding 'yup the room isnt correct for the rad, room's a 1/3rd bigger, therefore I'll put the CH on overnight to compensate'? It has no way of knowing whether rad 4 is 2/3rds the size it 'should be' relative to the room size. I mean yes its clevererer than me perhaps.. but it's not -that- clever!

 

Even if say I turn off the bathroom & kitchen rads.. it still has no reason to come on overnight in any "compensation" setting. I'll certainly ask Vaillant for an opinion if this overnight 'compensation setting' exists tho.

 

How was I meant to have a bigger rad in bathroom? should I have refused the whole install, or they have refused to install it bc the bathroom's too small? no, they put in a rad they can, & up the size of another rad I'd imagine until some form of 'acceptable parity' within the recommendations is achieved for the 7.5kW engine. Vaillant have ok'd the rads/ the install (bar one leak, a pipe not connected A to B right/ done now). But you say it's all installed wrong, that the reason I get 14.5*C at best in kitchen is soley bc the rad is undersized/ installer error again, not the room's appaling insulation aspects clouting it with cold so it can't do what it usually could (I know this is 100% true: you can just feel it to be true, my old electric rad was big'ish 2kW but the same 14.5*C at best -it feels similarly cold- on most of a day.. but I never once blamed it, or me for putting it in, only the sodding freezing welsh cttg).

 

I do not say I have superior knowledge, I say the opposite; I'm not coming to conclusions based on my knowledge of ins & outs of ashp's.. I'm doing so on what I see/ find it doing, & if Vaillant see/ find what it's doing concurs > logic dictates this is -likely- the right line of inquiry. Not definite, no, just likely.

[zoothorn]

53 minutes ago, joe90 said:

@zoothorn, @PeterW even went out of his way to contact Vaillant for the information he posted up regarding those diagrams, they did not want to give him access to their technical library and he told them that he was in a position to recommend to his architects their equipment but was unlikely too if they refused access to their technical site. You really are an ungrateful @@@@ .

 

How you can possibly jump to some ridiculous conclusion that I'm -ungrateful- for anyone showing me/ answering a question Ive been asking. Absolute bollocks. I am very grateful for Peter putting the diagram up, it helps me ID where to put the probes to check the flow temp ((how could I possibly not be?)) I've yet to go over it & use it.. but what follows (within the post) is a reply, to which I reply to because it's part of an ongoing discussion. I was coming back to the diagram, & as usual with those I respect, show gratitude for their efforts. So don't jump to unneccessary ridiculous conclusons. It smells of a need to be part of a gang/ pack mentality, & you are better than that.

[zoothorn]

13 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

Google makes it even easier. You do a quick search and there are hundreds of companies online where you enter the room details and they work out all out for you.

 

Are you suggesting that I should have done this prior to the install?

 

What happens if there isn't the room to put the correctly sized rad?

[ProDave]

Just now, zoothorn said:

 

What happens if there isn't the room to put the correctly sized rad?

You make the room, put 2 smaller rads in, or accept it is going to be cold.

[zoothorn]

37 minutes ago, joe90 said:

fill in as you feel appropriate!

 

Jesush joe. just because I've a pov you disagree with & jump to a wild conclusion I'm ungrateful when I'm the very opposite, you decide it's right to call me a c@@@ on a public forum. well done you.

 

 

 

 

 

[Onoff]

3 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

you decide it's right to call me a c@@@ on a public forum. well done you.

 

To be fair it's not just Joe calling you one! ?

 

I may have missed it but do you have say a single room thermostat mounted somewhere? On a wall? As a portable unit? I have no clue how an ASHP works but could see if the room where the stat is is below temperature it'd fire up the ASHP if it was within its time to come on. 

 

Nobody is suggesting you should have tried to specify your own rads prior to install. Checking that what you have now are suitable for the rooms is worthwhile all day long. You might just find they've taken the piss and put undersize ones in from the start.

[joe90]

18 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

you decide it's right to call me a c@@@ on a public forum. well done you.

There you go again, making assumptions that are not correct, I think you are a “twit” and left it to others to decide what they want to call you.

18 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

just because I've a pov you disagree with & jump to a wild conclusion

I have made no wild conclusions, it’s you that is asking fir advise on a subject that you know very little about and when generous people here that know far more than you try to help, you challenge them on every level. 

Edited January 22, 2021 by joe90

[Declan52]

29 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

Are you suggesting that I should have done this prior to the install?

 

What happens if there isn't the room to put the correctly sized rad?

You can get single double or even triple rads or if you can't go out sideways floor to ceiling size. There is a multitude of different options available. 

The installer or who ever done the survey should have worked it all out. They measure your room length and width and height and work out rough heat loss calculations and get a figure. They then pick a rad that can produce more heat than your room can lose. Otherwise you end up with a cold room no matter how long the heading is on. 

[Onoff]

14 minutes ago, joe90 said:

There you go again, making assumptions that are not correct, I think you are a “twit” and left it to others to decide what they want to call you.

I have made no wild conclusions, it’s you that is asking fir advise on a subject that you know very little about and when generous people here that know far more than you try to help, you challenge them on every level. 

 

Sorry, my mistake, I thought you were agreeing with me! ?

[zoothorn]

7 minutes ago, ProDave said:

You make the room, put 2 smaller rads in, or accept it is going to be cold.

 

Hi Declan. 'Make the room'? what remake pull out & redo kitchen-?

 

Put in 2 smaller rads.. yes good suggestion in kitchen, not one I was offered, but as it's foc I'd not expect them to have tho, I don't think what do you think? I just can't put 2 in bathroom (1x bath length x same wide).

 

So accept it's cold- yes I've said I knew it would be cold in kitchen, bathroom, main room (2 correctly sized rads), 2 beds too (correctly sized rads).. but not my new room. It's why -this- room alone isn't working right is all I need to consider. Plus system anomalies.

 

The opinions here say that the CH -should- be heating the house & that bc it's not, then the install isn't therfore correct. But I know/ knew the appaling house cold would be way to much for even correctly sized rads/ a correctly installed CH. Ive said this from the start.

 

It's whether it can be deemed correctly installed, or not, is the contentious thing. Everyone says not.. & just I say it is, ok. But if Vaillant are saying it is correctly installded too, now leak fixed.. then it's like a 50/50 thing, we just agree to disagree (not throw insults like children).