Extension- Last Stuff.

[jfb]

34 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Does balancing radiators mean getting all to the same temp, or not.

Imagine two rooms with the same radiator size in each room. One room is large and one small.

if both rad valves are open fully then they should both get to an equal temperature. But since one room is much smaller it will heat up much quicker and be a much warmer room (assuming similar insulation values). 
So, in order to get both rooms to a similar temperature you turn the rad valve down in the smaller room so more of the heat being provided by the boiler/ASHP goes to the rad in the larger room. This rad will be hotter in order to ‘balance’ the system.

Of course it is normal to account for room size when deciding on radiator size so my example is a bit extreme but hopefully you get the point.

 

So for your house it would be normal when trying to balance the system to turn the rad valves right down on any rooms that are getting warm and making sure the cold rooms have fully open valves. You should notice a difference in temperature between the rads once the heating has been on a while. 

In the workshop (which gets warm I believe) can you tell us how open the rad valve is (fully open, 75%, 50% or whatever)?

[jfb]

2 hours ago, PeterW said:

 

I wish you luck resolving this, I have no further comment or input to make on this.

You’ll be back Peter. Everyone always comes back!

[Pocster]

53 minutes ago, Onoff said:

 

The Queen's Gambit is very good.

Seen it 

[Pocster]

1 hour ago, pocster said:

Maybe ?

 

https://www.homeserve.com/uk/living/how-to/balance-radiators/

Guys ! I put a really helpful link up ?

[zoothorn]

24 minutes ago, jfb said:

Imagine two rooms with the same radiator size in each room. One room is large and one small.

if both rad valves are open fully then they should both get to an equal temperature. But since one room is much smaller it will heat up much quicker and be a much warmer room (assuming similar insulation values). 
So, in order to get both rooms to a similar temperature you turn the rad valve down in the smaller room so more of the heat being provided by the boiler/ASHP goes to the rad in the larger room. This rad will be hotter in order to ‘balance’ the system.

Of course it is normal to account for room size when deciding on radiator size so my example is a bit extreme but hopefully you get the point.

 

So for your house it would be normal when trying to balance the system to turn the rad valves right down on any rooms that are getting warm and making sure the cold rooms have fully open valves. You should notice a difference in temperature between the rads once the heating has been on a while. 

In the workshop (which gets warm I believe) can you tell us how open the rad valve is (fully open, 75%, 50% or whatever)?

 

RIGHT!! I think!! At last!! (but without answering my Q yes or no.. but it seems NO is the answer). Thanks jfb.

 

Apologies if someone tried to explain this before, PeterW maybe (10 days ago-?) but I honestly totally missed it, because this is the 1st time this has been explained that I've seen.

 

So this explanation -does concur- with wondering if my interpretation of "balance" was wrong, & not in sync with joe's/ Peter's interpretation then (I did ask if this seemed possibly why I couldn't understand, as it seemed the only plausible reason.. but no-one replied).

 

So my interpretation, that all my rads being equal temp so "balanced" is wrong then. So why didn't anyone tell me so? I mean I kept repeating it only because I had no reason to think otherwise as its a very very reasonable assumption to make. bizarre.

 

SO if I was to balance the system, approximately lets just say for now, due to being very cold 13.3* achieved in my kitchen, with its rad on many hours & a high flow temp @ 55* currently...... then in theory I have to whack the flow temp up to 60+*, to get the cold kitchen to say 18.5* min. Then turn down workshop rad to min, presumably the new top room above down to say medium. In order to balance the --room temps--.

 

So, balancing the rads is a total misnomer!!.. it is in effect not balancing the rads at all!!  but balancing the room temps!! JesusHffsake no fkn wonder Ive been so confused!! dont get much empathy on here eh?! cjrist I need a break.

 

thanks jfb

[ToughButterCup]

15 hours ago, zoothorn said:

...

JesusHffsake no fkn wonder Ive been so confused!! dont get much empathy on here eh?! cjrist I need a break.

 

Online, you could not want for a more patient, polite or kind environment in which to share your build challenges.

Look at the page count. Re-read just some of the members' responses with care. Work out, briefly, how much time you have been given by BH members - for nothing.

Generous does not even begin to cover it.

 

Build Hub is not the only online resource in this sector. 

Edited January 15, 2021 by ToughButterCup

[zoothorn]

4 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

 

Online, you could not want for a more patient, polite or kind environment in which to share your build challenges.

Look at the page count. Re-read just some of the members' responses with care. Work out, briefly, how much time you have been given by BH members - for nothing.

Generous does not even begin to cover it.

 

Build Hub is not the only online resource in this sector. 

I agree entirely, I always am grateful for the help. But its innevitable things

 

1. get lost in translation using a box of text to and fro,

2. occasional posts are missed/ im not prompted by like yours just now, id say 5% are.

3. If im trying to understand X for the 1st time, & its commonknowledge to most, frustration at me not getting it happens, &

4. if in actuality its balancing the room temps that is the aim, by in fact un-balancing the rads (from a state now currently balanced: balance ONLY EVER meaning equalibrium, A DEFINITION) in order to achieve this term "balance radiators" is then an utterly preposterously stupid term, and I should be cut some slack at being confused by it, not ridiculed & sniped at like many posts.

 

Yes there's mostly patience, but alot of unwarranted impatience suddenly errupts too. Joe90, Jfb, Peter Stark should be commended for never getting angry, a calm manner I think realise Im new to most stuff, & are patient.

 

Thanks . Zoot

 

 

[Onoff]

8 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Joe90, Jfb, Peter Stark should be commended for never getting angry, a calm manner I think realise Im new to most stuff, & are patient.

 

They're better men than me! ?

[joe90]

8 minutes ago, Onoff said:

 

They're better men than me! ?

We don’t have your wicked sense of humour ?

[ToughButterCup]

31 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

...

Yes there's mostly patience ... 

 

This is not a paid for professional service where you might properly expect measured responses from all contributors.

31 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

...

1. get lost in translation using a box of text to and fro,

2. occasional posts are missed/ im not prompted by like yours just now, id say 5% are.

3. If im trying to understand X for the 1st time, & its commonknowledge to most, frustration at me not getting it happens, &

4. if in actuality its balancing the room temps that is the aim, by in fact un-balancing the rads (from a state now currently balanced: balance ONLY EVER meaning equalibrium, A DEFINITION) in order to achieve this term "balance radiators" is then an utterly preposterously stupid term, and I should be cut some slack at being confused by it, not ridiculed & sniped at like many posts.

...

 

Nobody can know exactly what's meant by written text. So much gets - as you say - lost intranslation. Thats normal.

 

This board is a teaching and learning resource.  It does not offer a Members' Needs Analysis  such as those offered by other online teaching formal, paid for teaching  institutions .

 

So respondents to your posts cannot know what you dont know. But, out of kindness, they respond anyway. Thats why it is very suprising indeed that you react with visible frustration at the perceived quality of responses.

One technique which is very powerful in online teaching and learning is to ask the person posting to summarise what he or she thinks she has learned. As a simple post - just bullet points.

 

That does three things,

• It reassures readers that you have made an effort to understand them
• It allows time for you to internalise some of the teaching
• Its helps set the agenda for further development.

Try it. Please.

Edited January 15, 2021 by ToughButterCup

[zoothorn]

4 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

 

This is not a paid for professional service where you might properly expect measured responses from all contributors.

 

Nobody can know exactly what's meant by written text. So much gets - as you say - lost intranslation. Thats normal.

 

This board is a teaching and learning resource.  It does not offer a Members' Needs Analysis  such as those offered by other online teaching formal, paid for teaching  institutions .

 

So respondents to your posts cannot know what you dont know. But, out of kindness, they respond anyway. Thats why it is very suprising indeed that you react with visible frustration at the perceived quality of responses.

One technique which is very powerful in online teaching and learning is to ask the person posting to summarise what he or she thinks she has learned. As a simple post - just bullet points.

 

That does three things,

• It reassures readers that you have made an effort to understand them
• It allows time for you to internalise some of the teaching
• Its helps set the agenda for further development.

Try it. Please.

 

No Buttercup please, you don't get the very gist of what I'm saying.

 

Bc the term "Balance radiators" is a total misnomer (IE it WRONGLY implies a balance of rads) & temperature the only thing that's to balance.. I was in no understanding other than the exercise of this term, the idea, was to achieve a parity of temperatures one rad to the next.

 

So, because parity of rad temps is what I find, I'd no reason to say anything other than that my radiators -are- balanced. I stuck to that by just applying logic to the term "balance radiators". I couldn't understand why people kept saying "NO!" (now... yes... I can understand).

 

If the term had actually been "Balance room temps (by un-balancing radiators)" I'd have understood. And not stubbornly repeated b.. b.. but my radiators are balanced!! until Peter's wig flew off. and me scratching my head in huge frustration. Round & round until pocaster pops up from under his bridge with his 'funnies'. Then I let off steam like Peter & his wig.

 

It is therefore -only- due to 1 STUPID ASS term (know what it means to all on here, all but me) "balance radiators" which should in fact 100% more accurately be "un-balance radiators" that started much confusion.

 

"Balance room temps" the exercise should be called............ not FFS whoever coined it "balance radiators"!!

 

 

 

 

[Onoff]

"Unbalanced" ???

 

Reminds me that Round The Horne sketch.

 

"My Lords, Ladies and gentlemen. Master Of The Hunt, stable boys, unstable boys!"

[Declan52]

If some one posts something that contains a term or a technical aspect that you don't understand you could always Google it first before you respond. Only takes a few seconds and it will definitely help you understand what is in the post which will then help you reply with a clearer idea of what's going on and what needs to happen.

As far balancing rads, it's just the term that has been used for years ,Peter didn't invent it. 

[ToughButterCup]

7 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

...

As far balancing rads, it's just the term that has been used for years ,Peter didn't invent it. 

 

Every discipline has its own terms and special ways of applying them. Designed almost to keep people like Zoot and me OUT of plumbing, just like doctors give things Latin names - anyway keeps me out of brain surgery. Cos if I'd have been a brain surgeon, I'd have replaced Donald Trumps brain by now.

 

And mine. 

[Onoff]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

Bc the term "Balance radiators" is a total misnomer (IE it WRONGLY implies a balance of rads)

 

No it doesn't. Stop being a c***

[ToughButterCup]

Sir, people are allowed to be wrong.

[Onoff]

Just now, ToughButterCup said:

Sir, people are allowed to be wrong.

 

In the head?

[ash_scotland88]

11 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

 

Every discipline has its own terms and special ways of applying them. Designed almost to keep people like Zoot and me OUT of plumbing, just like doctors give things Latin names - anyway keeps me out of brain surgery. Cos if I'd have been a brain surgeon, I'd have replaced Donald Trumps brain by now.

 

And mine. 

 

An example of this is Truss.

To most in here it will mean a roof trussing. For me my first thoughts are Prolyte Truss* (other brands are available). There's other terms that I have had to translate moving from event work to construction stuff, which I can't think of off the top of my head.

 

*https://shopmtn.eu/products/prolyte-h30v-square-truss

Edited January 15, 2021 by ash_scotland88

[Pocster]

????? 45 pages and no ones the wiser .

[ToughButterCup]

Part of the joy of plumbing - for me anyway - is getting to grips the way in which the trade talks to non-trade people. Like Zoot, bless him - and me.   All plumbers know what an iron is, but I use one to process her blouses after washing. 

It was just brilliant watching and listening to an arsey female counter assistant in a plumber's merchant the other day  : here goes ......

 

Overheard at a local plumbing depot: a real proper plumbers merchant, smelling of paraffin,  sweat, linseed and thinners - 

Single lightbulb on at the hatch where sits a 

 

Ditsy Teeny Blond Bomshell  :  her nail varnish bottle out on the counter: cotton wool blob and nail file and thinners bottle open - slightly heady scent.  One hand waving to and fro to dry the nail she had accidentally  painted a few seconds ago.

 

A local plumber beats me to the counter: smiles at the lass who's now on her second nail of the day ....

 

Y' awreet mert? she says sweetly, while looking at nail number three

Aye

 

'Appen ye've sum 3/4 irons in then?

Wadja mean 22 mill?

Nahh,  I need sum three quarters

 

Pause: by now nail number three had a wet edge, and so needed constant attention

We've got sum inch in if that'd do ya?

 

Nahh, I need three quarters really.

Ditsy promtly turns and shouts to some hidden Golum deep in the bowels of the warehouse. I cant pretend to remember what she said because I didn't understand it. I speak four languages, and Plumber isn't one of them. Golum replied: which langauge does Golum speak?  - because I understood not a word. Not a syllable.

 

 The plumber left. 

 

My turn.

Do you sell HEP2o ?

The shock of the question actually stopped her nail painting - eyed me suspiciously.

 

'S all Speedfit 'ere.

And got on with nail number 4 

I stood there for a moment and wondered if I should ask her what an inch iron was. Because I was going to give her one.  Didn't have the guts.

 

 

[Pocster]

24 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

Part of the joy of plumbing - for me anyway - is getting to grips the way in which the trade talks to non-trade people. Like Zoot, bless him - and me.   All plumbers know what an iron is, but I use one to process her blouses after washing. 

It was just brilliant watching and listening to an arsey female counter assistant in a plumber's merchant the other day  : here goes ......

 

Overheard at a local plumbing depot: a real proper plumbers merchant, smelling of paraffin,  sweat, linseed and thinners - 

Single lightbulb on at the hatch where sits a 

 

Ditsy Teeny Blond Bomshell  :  her nail varnish bottle out on the counter: cotton wool blob and nail file and thinners bottle open - slightly heady scent.  One hand waving to and fro to dry the nail she had accidentally  painted a few seconds ago.

 

A local plumber beats me to the counter: smiles at the lass who's now on her second nail of the day ....

 

Y' awreet mert? she says sweetly, while looking at nail number three

Aye

 

'Appen ye've sum 3/4 irons in then?

Wadja mean 22 mill?

Nahh,  I need sum three quarters

 

Pause: by now nail number three had a wet edge, and so needed constant attention

We've got sum inch in if that'd do ya?

 

Nahh, I need three quarters really.

Ditsy promtly turns and shouts to some hidden Golum deep in the bowels of the warehouse. I cant pretend to remember what she said because I didn't understand it. I speak four languages, and Plumber isn't one of them. Golum replied: which langauge does Golum speak?  - because I understood not a word. Not a syllable.

 

 The plumber left. 

 

My turn.

Do you sell HEP2o ?

The shock of the question actually stopped her nail painting - eyed me suspiciously.

 

'S all Speedfit 'ere.

And got on with nail number 4 

I stood there for a moment and wondered if I should ask her what an inch iron was. Because I was going to give her one.  Didn't have the guts.

 

 

In Plumbers/BM etc. you've got to be all manly . Say f*** a lot, f the economy, f covid, f weather, f boris. Then you are on their intellectual level. At this point you ask for 1/2" thingy whatsis. Knowing that you aren't sure what indeed you need. Then 82% of the time it's not in stock. You then say what a pile of shite they are. Everyone laughs. You then go online find a nice friendly company and they send you links to everything you need . 

[MJNewton]

42 minutes ago, pocster said:

In Plumbers/BM etc. you've got to be all manly . Say f*** a lot, f the economy, f covid, f weather, f boris. Then you are on their intellectual level. At this point you ask for 1/2" thingy whatsis. Knowing that you aren't sure what indeed you need. Then 82% of the time it's not in stock. You then say what a pile of shite they are. Everyone laughs. You then go online find a nice friendly company and they send you links to everything you need . 

 

There's still the 18% of the time when it is in stock though and then you've got the amazing Seemingly-Random Price Calculator that comes out. Turns out it's not random through; I caught a glimpse of the algorithm once and it had various multiplication factors such as:

 

Customer's clothing (ripped/painted clothing: x1, clean jeans: x5, suit with shoes and an office pass around the neck: x10)

Desperation level (just passing so thought I'd pop in: x1, clearly desperate and it's getting late: x5, clearly desperate, it's getting late and it involves water: x10)

Repeat custom (in here every day at 7am: x1, only here because online delivery not quick enough: x10)

Product knowledge (asked for it by name: x1, described it with hand movements and comparison with household objects: x10)

Gullibility (didn't ask if the price included VAT: x1, asked if the price included VAT: add an amount equivalent to VAT on top)

Duress (no queue behind: x1, queue of real tradesmen behind: x10)

Mystery adjustment (x random) (This is just to ensure you never pay same amount twice otherwise you could reverse engineer the algorithm)

 

I'm sure there are others - the list was a fair bit longer.

Edited January 15, 2021 by MJNewton

[Pocster]

3 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

 

There's still the 18% of the time when it is in stock though and then you've got the amazing Seemingly-Random Price Calculator that comes out. Turns out it's not random through; I caught a glimpse of the algorithm once and it had various multiplication factors such as:

 

Customer's clothing (ripped/painted clothing: x1, clean jeans: x5, suit with shoes and an office pass around the neck: x10)

Desperation level (just passing so thought I'd pop in: x1, clearly desperate and it's getting late: x5, clearly desperate, it's getting late and it involves water: x10)

Repeat custom (in here every day at 7am: x1, only here because online delivery not quick enough: x10)

Product knowledge (asked for it by name: x1, described it with hand movements and comparison with household objects: x10)

Gullibility (didn't asked if the price included VAT: x1, asked if the price included VAT: add an amount equivalent to VAT on top)

Duress (no queue behind: x1, queue of real tradesmen behind: x10)

Mystery adjustment (x random) (This is just to ensure you never pay same amount twice otherwise you could reverse engineer the algorithm)

 

I'm sure there are others - the list was a fair bit longer.

You are indeed correct 

 

The price on the shelf means nothing 

 

I always ask for a discount because 

 

New Year

Spring discount 

Summer discount

Xmas discount

 

 But as they are seasonal I now just ask for “We’re all (expletive deleted)ed by Covid discount “

Edited January 15, 2021 by pocster

[MJNewton]

8 minutes ago, pocster said:

You are indeed correct 

 

The price on the shelf means nothing 

 

 

I didn't even know they had prices on the shelves! You must have nice ones round your way. That said, nothing I want is ever out on a shelf anyway as if it was I could work out for myself if it was the right thing and then run the risk of sounding confident at the till - could probably game the system if I remembered to go in my scruffs at the crack of dawn.

 

Quote

I always ask for a discount because 

 

New Year

Spring discount 

Summer discount

Xmas discount

 

 But as they are seasonal I now just ask for “We’re all (expletive deleted)ed but Covid discount “

 

Ah, yes, the discount. Forgot about that. I think it goes something like:

 

Discount (didn't ask for one: x1, asked for one: x2 then /2)

Edited January 15, 2021 by MJNewton

[Onoff]

I love when I phone the UK arm of a company with a "global presence", "Yes, we have X of them in stock!"

 

Then that's on a 5-7 day delivery from Cincinnati. 

 

No f***ing good if I want tomorrow is it!