Extension- Last Stuff.

[dpmiller]

21 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

Good q. Was set to 45*, set down i think possibly by engineer to try tamp down compressor noise about 4 visits ago, so just upped to 55* as suggested by phone renewables dept. Very very good these chaps have been i must add. Cant hear much difference, rads low temp now priority over this noise anyway.
 

Also told to up the heat upped from 0.8 to 1.2.. wtf this is i cant cope thinking of.

 

Buying thermometre today.

 

Is that what they said  "up the heat upped"?

[zoothorn]

3 hours ago, PeterW said:

That isn’t proof. Your body temperature is 39°C, the air temperature at 18°C feels “cool” but a radiator at 25°C will also feel “tepid”. In reality, pure thermodynamics means the radiator is warming the air around it, and given enough time and assuming the heat loss from the room is less than the heat input from the radiator, the room will reach equilibrium with the radiator. 
 

To give you “proof” it isn’t working, you need to get some data - which is the thermometers. 

Ok Peter, will buy today but look.. just off phone, did few things in controller, as a result ( plus turning off two rads i dont need) and i can feel rads now a different temp. They now feel fairly hot. Its very obvious to feel a rads temp, hot or tepid warm, suggesting Im sort of thinking these temps just feels like challenging me, because I dont understand various things, & bc im a newbie to it all.
 

Now whether i can get this temp in them when i need it.. is another matter entirely: midday, after 5.5 hrs of being on continuosly, isn't useful/ i dont actually need it. 8 am, after being on 1.5 hs- I do.

[MJNewton]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

Also told to up the heat upped from 0.8 to 1.2.. wtf this is i cant cope thinking of.

 

I'm guessing here, but I suspect it could be a weather compensation parameter. I am imagining there being different curves that it follows to determine how much heat to generate depending on outside temperature, room temperature and response rate. The 0.8 vs 1.2 might be choosing a different one and, most importantly, one that is a bit more generous with how much heat it decides is required. I didn't want to muddy the waters but I was going to suggest perhaps you (/us) working out if your weather compensation could be disabled, not only to rule it out of the equation as being potential cause of issues but also to make it operate a bit more simply / less 'too clever for its own good' /  less stingy with what it gives out etc.

Edited November 27, 2020 by MJNewton

[zoothorn]

11 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

 

I'm guessing here, but I suspect it could be a weather compensation parameter. I am imagining there being different curves that it follows to determine how much heat to generate depending on outside temperature, room temperature and response rate. The 0.8 vs 1.2 might be choosing a different one and, most importantly, one that is a bit more generous with how much heat it decides is required. I didn't want to muddy the waters but I was going to suggest perhaps you (/us) working out if your weather compensation could be disabled, not only to rule it out of the equation as being potential cause of issues but also to make it operate a bit more simply / less 'too clever for its own good' /  less stingy with what it gives out etc.

Spot on MJN. I had thought exactly, precisely this, going into one zoot thought experiment.. head aching as a result..

 

Ok Ive got yet another vaillant visit monday. Ive got i think 2 more installers visits after this too, one to add a part ( so vaillant last visit determined, to fix leak re. Prv or somthing), then hopefully a final one to add a silencer. Jesush.

 

Right,  Vaillant visit monday: idea here is to add some hardware onto this sensor they said, in order to do something, in order to stop the signal being sent overnight. Summink to this effect, my brain couldn't cope establishing more. So, in effect, possibly what you are thinking here.. and concurring with my exceptional engineering brilliance too.

 

But I bet it wont do a fart.

[zoothorn]

@MJNewton just remembered, the 0.8 thing was " heat curve" iirc that is. So it was upped ( apparantly default setting is 0.6, that is how its set from factory) from 0.8, which installers set i think their default setting, but a figure usually associated with under floor heating.. to 1.2 a figure being associated with wall rads.

 

Sorry my heads such a fug with all this, plus lack of sleep due to it, & i forgot this is what was discussed, and altered today during call to vaillant.

 

many thanks for your input chaps, zh

[MJNewton]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

@MJNewton just remembered, the 0.8 thing was " heat curve" iirc that is. So it was upped ( apparantly default setting is 0.6, that is how its set from factory) from 0.8, which installers set i think their default setting, but a figure usually associated with under floor heating.. to 1.2 a figure being associated with wall rads.

 

Okay, that sounds hopeful! It certainly seems like a fundamental error to have had the 0.8 setting for your setup, and finger's crossed one that may have been the cause of sub-par performance.

 

How have things been since upping the curve to 1.2 this morning? (Noting it may take a while for your house to really warm up)

[zoothorn]

24 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

 

Okay, that sounds hopeful! It certainly seems like a fundamental error to have had the 0.8 setting for your setup, and finger's crossed one that may have been the cause of sub-par performance.

 

How have things been since upping the curve to 1.2 this morning? (Noting it may take a while for your house to really warm up)

well it was ok'd i could turn off 3 rads, chap agreeing probably giving more numnums to remaining rads.. so ive done that too, but can see a change today, rads a much  better. But as i said, unless this happens when i need it, not say 2 hrs until they get to this state, im still up a gum tree. 
 

im up one right now, freezing cold, in the new top room hat and scarf on, nose legs feet back cold.. because its in  Hw period until 6, (so prioritises this over heating) & room temp nosedived after 5 pm. Been at 18.5* (in thermostat spare room) all day, just about bearable in here only tho. interesting to see iif i can get the room warm this ev now rads can go hotter. Not holding my breath tbh bc its 3* outside, and also, the damn overnight noise started 4.45 pm. Urgh.
 

I cannot cope much more with this system tbh. Told Vaillant in an email just now, if this issue not fixed monday it must be removed asap/ totally untennable to live with. I'll follow this up with trading standards info, demands, ie get my bboy pants on, if i have a bad weekend with it. Highly likely as temp low now, frequency of wretched noise coinciding - im sure now- with outside temp drop to 3 to 4 degrees.

[zoothorn]

Still cold rooms 8 am. I notice the rads are the same useless tepid temp  6.30 am to 8.. then they do suddenly get going, in 15 mins they're up to the good new temp. So only partial success adjusting flow temp and heat curve up.

 

If it cant get rads on until 8, its a total waste of time to me, and i think unfit for purpose.. but again never having ch before, or expecation of this ashp i don5 know if this is a legitimate grumble. Surely tho. Ok could start them 5.30.. but ffs, how much am i spending for such minimal benefit?

 

Oddly the new workshop is toasty even during the day when, i set it down to 18. Top room above no evident warmth. This lower room is exactly as id expect both these 2 new rooms to be, but its only in the one i dont need warm. It doesn't have even an insulated door, a huge great cold input area, and a rad half the size.. so why this huge discrepency is bewildering.

[Gone West]

I don't know if you've said before but have you checked how much insulation is in the loft as you said the room below is warmer.

[Roundtuit]

@zoothorn
I'm sure you must have mentioned it somewhere, but can you remind me where the thermostats are please; one in each room? TRV's?

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, Roundtuit said:

@zoothorn
I'm sure you must have mentioned it somewhere, but can you remind me where the thermostats are please; one in each room? TRV's?

 No trv's.. the system didnt come with them, dont think they're relevant to this ashp system, are they?

 

 So i have one thermostat, on a diddy controller wall box. This is is the spare room, with cylinder and vrc700 unit in ( noisy bustard ).

[Roundtuit]

OK. I hesitate to ask, but is the room with the thermostat in nice and warm?

[zoothorn]

2 hours ago, Roundtuit said:

OK. I hesitate to ask, but is the room with the thermostat in nice and warm?

Well yes, this small spare room is fairly warm.. as the cylinders in it, alot of pipes, the vrc700 box which all make bit ofheat. Plus a rad.

 

Thing is wherever i were to put the thermostat, never seems ideal. If in kitchen, its so cold it'll read such a low temp the system will be on all the time. If in here where it is, is sort of too warm.. meaning house is usually cold. If i turn the rad off in here, its too cold in here.

 

All i expected, all i wanted, was this new top room ( built as the sole warm hunker down room + my bedroom in one, due to the house's terrible cold) warm.. but its falling terribly short ive never once felt any warmth whatsoever in here. The damn new room right below it.. above expectations, super toasty, all day, even too toasty now rads up new high temp, in the evening. Total opposites. Its bizarre.

[PeterW]

Does your workshop have a rad in it then..??

 

And I think you need to close down the rad by about 50% in the room with the thermostat in it. 

[zoothorn]

16 hours ago, PeterStarck said:

I don't know if you've said before but have you checked how much insulation is in the loft as you said the room below is warmer.

 

Hi Peter, see your point.. well when I saw builders make it, I saw 1 layer of orange fluff go across joists.. probably gaps galore too, very definitely min they'd be allowed to & least good stuff/ ie best cost to them.

 

Its not just warmer, its night & day toasty / just plain not warm. Even if I open door downstairs nipping in & out, warmth still just remains in there, so insulative properties of this room are tip top you can just feel so, just like when you walk into a really good new place with heating on: lovely.

[Roundtuit]

8 hours ago, zoothorn said:

All i expected, all i wanted, was this new top room ( built as the sole warm hunker down room + my bedroom in one, due to the house's terrible cold) warm..

Can you move the thermostat to the new  top room perhaps, then turn the radiators down anywhere that is getting too warm?  As your controls are a bit limited, it might just be a case of playing around to 'balance' the system to suit maybe.

[Gone West]

18 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

well when I saw builders make it, I saw 1 layer of orange fluff go across joists.. probably gaps galore too, very definitely min they'd be allowed to & least good stuff/ ie best cost to them.

That could be part of the problem then. Best to go up there and check.

[PeterW]

29 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Its not just warmer, its night & day toasty / just plain not warm. Even if I open door downstairs nipping in & out, warmth still just remains in there, so insulative properties of this room are tip top you can just feel so, just like when you walk into a really good new place with heating on: lovely.

Is this the room you did with the kingspan and we walked you through how to do it ..? And tbh you made a great job of it so it’s very much working as designed when you’ve got proper detail to all the joints etc. 

 

Do you have any access to the ceiling above the other room or not ..?? I’m thinking not ... 

[zoothorn]

Just now, Roundtuit said:

Can you move the thermostat to the new  top room perhaps, then turn the radiators down anywhere that is getting too warm?  As your controls are a bit limited, it might just be a case of playing around to 'balance' the system to suit maybe.

 

I know some of these are wireless, but this one isn't so its tethered to the vrc700 unit.

 

Trouble is, if I move it to a cold room, & for eg set in 'usual' figs of 18* for day, and 22* for am/ pm.. it'll be on continually in day, struggling to get this cold room to 18* (it -might- just get there at some point & have a break, rarely tho), in evening it'll go rads hotter yes, but will never get this cold room to 22*, if I cannot get the warmish spare room its in now to 22*..

 

Thermometre on its way. But if I cant get rads hot between 6.30-8am (same today again, at 8am rads spring into gear from barely-on-warm [an 'idle' state it seems from 6.30 to 8] to proper hot temp.. so I wake up 8am bedroom, kitchen, bathroom stone cold).. and its established as 'all working fine' then its totally useless/ just shouldn't be on the market for this reason alone.

 

I'm having to dig out previous electric wall heaters ready for winter, fan heater already following me room to room: its clear there's very little point putting the CH on (seems to be on continuously 6.30am to 9pm too now: how much is the damn thing costing me??) just for sole benefit of heating a workshop I don't actually need warm.

[zoothorn]

28 minutes ago, PeterStarck said:

That could be part of the problem then. Best to go up there and check.

 

No hatch. Id planned on putting one in next year. But I saw one layer of orange roll being speedily laid perp across joists. If this sits 5"? above the pB then surely a fairly hopeless 'lid'. I recall when grant Co came & put another thick layer of modern stuff, ontop of the old orange roll, above my old 2 cold bedrooms.. "that'll keep you warm now".. i made not a fart of difference, still see my breath sleeping.

 

So if the dividing floor between toasty workshop has my rockwool I put in, & its topside/ the floor above (in cold new room), never feels warm.. I think that establishes the warmth is being well contained below: therefore the rockwool's an effective insulator. If the logistics of (the ideal scenario) putting 75mm PIR between joists in attic Ive yet to get a hatch into, are n/a.. then rolls of rockwool seems to be the right idea.

 

But totally different ceilings though. This top room has huge cold attic above it, lower room ceiling has the room above of course, so I don't know..

[Gone West]

2 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

No hatch. Id planned on putting one in next year. But I saw one layer of orange roll being speedily laid perp across joists. If this sits 5"? above the pB then surely a fairly hopeless 'lid'. I recall when grant Co came & put another thick layer of modern stuff, ontop of the old orange roll, above my old 2 cold bedrooms.. "that'll keep you warm now".. i made not a fart of difference, still see my breath sleeping.

It might be worth fitting one now with the whole of the winter in front of us. The insulation roll should be fitted snuggly between the joists and another layer laid on top, perpendicular to the joists. I always think it's worth checking what installers have done, but then I don't trust anyone.

[newhome]

Do you really want the room set to 22c? That would be way too warm for me in any room. I generally have bedrooms at 18 and living room where I’m sitting down all the time @ 20. Can you play around with the thermostat a bit? Turn the rads down 50% in the room with the thermostat and see if that makes a difference. If not turn the thermostat up one degree the next day and check again. I would be doing things like that initially as they are easily in your control to do so. Also at the same time each day make a note of your meter reading. Maybe do it at night too initially as this will give you accurate 12 hour usage figures. You can then determine how much electricity you are using with the different temperature settings that you are using to tweak the system. 

 

This is how I worked out the most optimal way to run my heating system as with an electric boiler it can be expensive, so I don’t just use it as plug in and leave, I physically control when the boiler comes on and switches off. Once I can move to a variable tariff I will be literally quids in. 
 

I know that you are mostly concerned about getting the rooms heated appropriately currently but do you have a smart meter, and what electric tariff are you on? 
 

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, PeterStarck said:

It might be worth fitting one now with the whole of the winter in front of us. The insulation roll should be fitted snuggly between the joists and another layer laid on top, perpendicular to the joists. I always think it's worth checking what installers have done, but then I don't trust anyone.

 
Hi Peter, yes makes sense.. i could maybe do this before porch job. Installers have just fitted the ch. they didnt do the loft insulation this was done by builder 1 year ago now.

 

But i just worry if it'll make only minimal difference. At mo you see, new top room huge rad on ( pretty hot) since 8.. but i can feel cold in my legs thru my thermals, in hips, breathing coldish air, items, bed very cold. This is why my back got so cold 1st night in here (still aches from this awful night too). Theres little warmth in the room (in fact nex5 door uninsulated terribly cold bedroom, with rad turned off, feels similar).
 

So Im wondering if the french doors plus the large window are both where cold is pouring in from too. I do have to make the bedroom door now asap.. but how 14mm of pine as a barrier will make much difference in general scheme of things i doubt.

Edited November 29, 2020 by zoothorn

[zoothorn]

@newhome i have to set it above what i want, in order to get it into gear, often i whack in 30* to get it going best gear it can.. bu5 in either case ive never got even thermostat room to achieve more than 21.5, even being on all day flat out.

 

So you see a fig to aim for, in your case, compared to here, is completely incomparable.

 

If i set it to 20*, it wont put the rads into 4 th gear/ max gear i need them at to feel just a tiny bit of benefit.  So rooms remain very cold, all day. I can only get the rads into 4 th gear if i set to 22* min. This doesnt mean at all itll get even  this warmish spare room to 22*.. eventually 4 pm it might get there. But how much have i spent it being on continually since 6.30 ?

 

This house is not normal, in any way compared to anyones here. Whether its just the outside  topography, i dont know. But at least ihave one room that - is- acting correctly, lower low ceiling workshop. So its possible; but tantalisingly, infuriatingly Im right now lying on a cold bed, in a cold room knowing just 1m below me is super toasty, with a rad half the size. Its gonna drive me insane this.

 

 

[SteamyTea]

24 minutes ago, newhome said:

This is how I worked out the most optimal way to run my heating system as with an electric boiler it can be expensive

I suspect that you took notice of science lessons at school, rather than think "they are of no use to me".

Edited November 29, 2020 by SteamyTea