MortarThePoint Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Well this may not be a surprise to some as I am getting used to this game, but I'm having some trouble with the brickie. It probably isn't for the reasons people might think though. The floor slabs installed by others were out of level, so the brickie said he'd need to cut blocks down to size to cope with the variation. Every block around the first course of the walls has had to be trimmed as a result and he said this would take 2-3 days on 'day rate' to cover the extra time (job is otherwise fixed price). I've just received the invoice and there are four issues: He's invoiced for 5 days, when the task was completed across 4 days (he wasn't here on the Monday). Pointing out, he said he keeps a book and is sure. He's charging extra for the full time taken to setout, cut and lay the first course rather than just the extra time that was taken due to the cutting (i.e. 2 days). He says that's just how day rate works, even if you're doing something else that you'd need to have done on the fix price work as well. We agreed rates before he started on the project, turns out he gave me the wrong rates and different ones now apply. On my discussing this in an open way, he's said he doesn't need the grief and threatened to take his tools and leave site. I find the last of those issues hardest to accept and feels like bullying. Any one of the first three reasons would be enough to warrant the conversation and I approached the conversation gently rather than confronting him aggressively about it. I'm now left wondering if I should tell him to pack up and head off as I don't want to be bullied through the process. I realise extra work costs extra money and I've no beef with that. We are at a natural break point and it would be easier to stop here and engage someone else than in a few days time. Is this par for the course, or a sign of bad things to come? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markc Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Extra works on day rates is fine, but thats no justification for taking the p$£%. We all have off days, but the reasons given are obviously the norm so i would accept his offer to leave. Better to be delayed than have constant grief and `Extra` costs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joth Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 (edited) How much of the fixed price contract is left to run? It sounds like someone under quoted and is now trying to wriggle out of it. If you're going to be dealing with this for many weeks I'd definitely think twice about continuing with him. Alas surprise fees are par for the course. In most cases they come down to "cock up" rather than conspiracy, but that doesn't make them any more palatable. At least no one has got shirty when I've brought this up, and indeed they have started to adapt and be a bit more proactive in flagging and fixing costs on variations before doing the work. Infact now I say this, the ugly reaction here does reinforce the impression this is someone caught with their hand in the cookie jar... Edited August 21, 2020 by joth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MortarThePoint Posted August 21, 2020 Author Share Posted August 21, 2020 I'm fine with additional work being additional cost. He has to make a living and that's completely reasonable. He may have undercooked the fixed price, but he should come to me and say that and we can have a grown up conversation about it. I did ask him how confident he was of the price at quote time as he was lower than some others. Even so, I'd be open to him saying he needs to up the cost because it's more involved than he expected. That would be less painful than him trying to recoup additional cost through over inflating any additional work that does crop up. It's still early days. They haven't reached first lift yet so there's still a long road ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 The problem is most jobs are priced according to how much work the company or trade has ahead of them Its very often a case of nice guy crap at his job Not the best to get on with but great at his job If he’s good at his job it may pay you to stick with him If you can easily replace him You can do that People that are used to being left to there own devices can be quite difficult Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MortarThePoint Posted August 21, 2020 Author Share Posted August 21, 2020 13 minutes ago, nod said: If he’s good at his job it may pay you to stick with him Unfortunately that's hard for me to gauge as it's my first time doing this. I deal with plenty of difficult to get along with people in my day job, with varying degrees of success ? But going straight to nuclear when questioned on something isn't cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 I would not expect him to have to cut every block. Was it just the one course before facework? Are the levels crucial? Normally they can make up a surprising amount with a combination of laying the blocks flat, thicker or thinner mortar courses, brick instead of block etc. I dislike being hit with extras and have had a number of disputes over this with various trades. I like it to be agreed in advance on a price. Do that next time if you can. If you keep him on, make sure you both know what is needed in advance at each stage, otherwise it will be extra because the scaffold isn't ready / he was held up by the chippies / the materials are not on site etc. If his work is spot on and he has left it neat and tidy, you may just need to suck it up. He is not the first builder to have issues with communication and aggression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfb Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 How many metres of setting out has he had to do? I can't see how cutting down a bunch of blocks is more than a days extra work, admittedly not much fun. But maybe it is a whopper of a house! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MortarThePoint Posted August 21, 2020 Author Share Posted August 21, 2020 24 minutes ago, jfb said: How many metres of setting out has he had to do? I can't see how cutting down a bunch of blocks is more than a days extra work, admittedly not much fun. But maybe it is a whopper of a house! Works out as about 80m or so as some internal walls. Every block was cut and I understand and agree with his approach of sorting the issue straight away. It took him 4 days to set out all of the first course of blockwork including the cutting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 1 hour ago, MortarThePoint said: Unfortunately that's hard for me to gauge as it's my first time doing this. I deal with plenty of difficult to get along with people in my day job, with varying degrees of success ? But going straight to nuclear when questioned on something isn't cool! Is it a full house or an extension Why I ask if it’s a larger job It needs resolving now Rather than one of you feeling cheated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MortarThePoint Posted August 21, 2020 Author Share Posted August 21, 2020 10 minutes ago, nod said: Is it a full house or an extension Why I ask if it’s a larger job It needs resolving now Rather than one of you feeling cheated Full house! Good advice, I'd rather clear the air and work to a revised fixed price than have a painful journey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 9 minutes ago, MortarThePoint said: Full house! Good advice, I'd rather clear the air and work to a revised fixed price than have a painful journey In the grand scheme of things it’s not a deal breaker I would point out that kicking off isn’t what your used to The person who left the out of plumb work has put you in a difficult position Clear the air ASAP At least you will both know where you stand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozza Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 (edited) What is the £ difference between the fixed price quote initially given and the price he’s now stating and the reason for the change what does the paperwork / contract / quote say is he someone with an excellent reputation / well know in the area etc how did you get him my initial response would be to pay him for the work he did then send him packing. Edited August 21, 2020 by Bozza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vijay Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 I just don't get how any trade can up their bill without speaking to you first. If you have a tight budget, where would they expect you to get their extra money??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 So we are arguing over a day..? He said 4 but has invoices for 5..?? Whats that worth..? Market has picked up here and I’m 4-6 weeks minimum if I wanted anyone for a week, 3-4 months out for a full job. How much will that delay cost you..? I would let him carry on but if he’s cut and laid 80m to falls then he’s at least starting it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MortarThePoint Posted August 21, 2020 Author Share Posted August 21, 2020 42 minutes ago, PeterW said: So we are arguing over a day..? He said 4 but has invoices for 5..?? Whats that worth..? Market has picked up here and I’m 4-6 weeks minimum if I wanted anyone for a week, 3-4 months out for a full job. How much will that delay cost you..? I would let him carry on but if he’s cut and laid 80m to falls then he’s at least starting it right. I think you're right, market forces make his position pretty solid. Personally, I think he should only be charging for 2 days as it took him 4 days to do something that without the additional work would have taken him 2 days. My biggest issue is with his temper around being asked about it. As long as he's open about it and we agree things up front I know what's coming. Some times you have to play the long game and grin and bear it to get where you want to be. I wish I was better able to judge his work to know if it's all worth it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottishjohn Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 5 hours ago, MortarThePoint said: He's invoiced for 5 days, when the task was completed across 4 days (he wasn't here on the Monday). Pointing out, he said he keeps a book and is sure. He's charging extra for the full time taken to setout, cut and lay the first course rather than just the extra time that was taken due to the cutting (i.e. 2 days). He says that's just how day rate works, even if you're doing something else that you'd need to have done on the fix price work as well. I would fall out with him If he told me he charged by the day =--then thats it 4 days is 4 days unless he worked the extra hours in the four days to mean it was really 5 days but thats me I expect people to be like me and stick to a deal -and if he is charging by the day --then all you could really complain about is if he was working very slow maybe different where you are --but here not getting a fixed price is asking to be taken for a fool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Have it out with him, he was there 4 days not 5, extra work 2 days, yes that is extra because levels were wrong. Don’t let him take you fir a fool or more “extras” will appear (IMO). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob99 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 He's bullying you into paying more than he's entitled to. Trying to charge 5 days when he was on site for 4 is just taking the p@#?. Charging for the extra work is fine but if the "real" extra is 2 days as what he has completed so far would have normally been 2 days then 4 days is just not on, and downright dishonest IMO. For me, what's worse seems to be his attitude when you try and have a sensible discussion with him. If you want to keep him on because his work is good then you might have to bite your lip and accept the relationship is not off to a good start. I think you will need to sort it out with him so that he fully understands this is a one off and you won't accept him treating you like that again. If you decide it's not worth the aggro then get another brickie. Yes it may delay things and may be more costly as a result but you won't feel like you're being taken for a ride. We had a good relationship with our builder and if we weren't happy with anything we just had a conversation and it was all sorted. Yes, there were changes and extra costs but neither of us were counting pennies but took a swings and roundabouts approach to many items. Maybe we were lucky but, honestly, if he had taken the approach your brickie has in the first week, he'd have been gone. Life's too stressful as it is when you're building. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roundtuit Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Despite a generally pessimistic outlook, I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, first time round at least. Here's my take: his card is marked, and he knows it. If the quality of his work is OK (and it sounds like he's put in the effort to do it properly), clear the air, smooth things over, pay the money, and hope that you'll get a bit back during the rest of the job. It won't even be a blip on the radar by the time you've finished. Any sniff of taking the pi$$ in future however, and its probably time to part company... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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