readiescards Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 Got a call from our holiday cottage - guests no hot water. Thanks to @Nickfromwales support was quickly able to identify control main relay failure exactly as @Jeremy Harris I believe - with the neutral line remaining open. Horrified to see it spark through the relay body and very annoyed no proactive input from Sunamp telling me to replace the relay so now got an expensive electrician call out for a short term replacement relay to get hot water flowing again - argh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readiescards Posted July 27, 2020 Author Share Posted July 27, 2020 Not ideal I reckon 20200726_210049.mp4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joth Posted July 27, 2020 Share Posted July 27, 2020 This? Hmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readiescards Posted July 27, 2020 Author Share Posted July 27, 2020 Sunamp say they are going to send me a new relay, they say they considered the Finder relay fine and therefore no need to contact existing customers! I'll be sent the latest spec - though it was unclear what that is going to be. @Jeremy Harris Have you a picture of your replacement relay please ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readiescards Posted July 27, 2020 Author Share Posted July 27, 2020 1 minute ago, joth said: This? Hmmm Correct, having spoke to Sunamp they say that is normal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readiescards Posted July 28, 2020 Author Share Posted July 28, 2020 Upgraded relay received from Sunamp, now need to get electrician back out to install it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readiescards Posted July 28, 2020 Author Share Posted July 28, 2020 With spade connectors, Sunamp warn me this one also has visible sparks from the internal contactors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 That should be a socket relay not spade connectors. What current is it carrying..? Ideally it should be a contactor. Sorry, edited to add, are you sure that the relay number is correct on that Finder relay in the box..? @Nickfromwales aren't these 3kw heater elements..? The Finder spec for that number is 12A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reiver Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 11 minutes ago, readiescards said: With spade connectors, Sunamp warn me this one also has visible sparks from the internal contactors This is such a common issue on all sorts of equipment and seems to significantly reduce relay life. All for want of adding one or two supressors across the terminals to stop the sparking/arcing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 What you have is a screw terminal DIN rail relay. Why have the sent you a spade terminal screw mount relay as a replacement when they say the Finder one is "okay"? I would personally replace with another DIN rail mount of another better make and higher current rating but then you have the thorny issue of warranty even though you would have fitted a better part. I used to build industrial machinery and we quickly found Finder were not the best. Of course you can fit the one they have sent just by crimping spade connectors onto the wires you have. then you have got to mount it somewhere. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 2 hours ago, ProDave said: Of course you can fit the one they have sent just by crimping spade connectors onto the wires you have. then you have got to mount it somewhere. That is now the OEM solution for any SA unit sent out in the last x number of months. 2 hours ago, Reiver said: This is such a common issue on all sorts of equipment and seems to significantly reduce relay life. All for want of adding one or two supressors across the terminals to stop the sparking/arcing. They could just fit a bloody SSR and all this goes away in a 'flash'....... 3 hours ago, PeterW said: @Nickfromwales aren't these 3kw heater elements..? The Finder spec for that number is 12A Yup, give or take. Seeing 15a is a worry, as it'll do the job but is still very close to the known duty. I know there's not massive shunt resistance with an immersion, but it should still have a lot more headroom IMO, even if just to promote longevity! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 12 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said: They could just fit a bloody SSR and all this goes away in a 'flash'....... @readiescards I would be looking at a permanent upgrade to a din rail SSR and get rid of the relay - cost would be £30 tops and makes it safe and also silent. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottishjohn Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 seems sunamp are still using "tombstone technology " like aero industry did at start of jet era ---when enough wings fall off -time to upgrade them not doing themselves any favours long term for sales especially when cost of these peripherals is so little in overall cost of the system 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 1 hour ago, PeterW said: @readiescards I would be looking at a permanent upgrade to a din rail SSR and get rid of the relay - cost would be £30 tops and makes it safe and also silent. If DIN rail SSR option is available, what about heatsink? Issue or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 ...and how to failsafe it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joth Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 1 hour ago, scottishjohn said: seems sunamp are still using "tombstone technology " like aero industry did at start of jet era ---when enough wings fall off -time to upgrade them Totally. @Dan F has pointed out several times that depending what specific ASHP you buy they need to ship out a different custom controller. Doing this sort of customization via bespoke hardware changes rather than software/settings in 2020 seems completely archaic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSharp01 Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 48 minutes ago, dpmiller said: ..and how to failsafe it? I suppose the question is how fail safe, it is a relative term? - IE fails safe every time or doesn't fail safe once every hundred million operations and burns the house down. 26 minutes ago, joth said: Totally. @Dan F has pointed out several times that depending what specific ASHP you buy they need to ship out a different custom controller. Doing this sort of customization via bespoke hardware changes rather than software/settings in 2020 seems completely archaic. Yep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 1 hour ago, dpmiller said: ...and how to failsafe it? No different to the contacts in the contactor or relay welding themselves in the ‘closed’ position. And so far the failings I have witnessed are the electronics failing and sending a constant ‘on’ signal to the contactor / relay, so 6 and two 3’s. SA fail safe, as with all other heaters out there, is mandatory, so that’s why they have an OH stat on / at the immersion location for such terminal failures. They also have a doomsday PRV on the PCM cell to stop it bursting. Seen a couple of units now where I was surprised that PRV hadn’t opened! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 50 minutes ago, joth said: Totally. @Dan F has pointed out several times that depending what specific ASHP you buy they need to ship out a different custom controller. Doing this sort of customization via bespoke hardware changes rather than software/settings in 2020 seems completely archaic. Also means stocking a lot more spares for the duration too. They did use one same PCB but now that’s gone that’s another negative for sales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LA3222 Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 Well, from reading this it seems that SunAmp has had its day on this forum. I've seen enough to put me on the 'well trodden' path of ASHP & UVC for DHW ?♂️ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 5 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said: If DIN rail SSR option is available, what about heatsink? Issue or not? You can get them with heatsinks fitted for DIN rails Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 Just now, PeterW said: You can get them with heatsinks fitted for DIN rails OK. Just there's not much room in the SA controller for anything bulky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visti Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 And just about to get ours into place and install! I'll be reaching out to then to see if we can address the issue during installation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 38 minutes ago, PeterW said: You can get them with heatsinks fitted for DIN rails Any links? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted July 28, 2020 Share Posted July 28, 2020 13 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said: Any links? Is there a Finder's fee? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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