Self build in South Devon.

[JamesP]

After many years looking at Green Building Forum and eBuild and I still can't quite believe it, we nearly have PP for a replacement dwelling in Dartmoor National Park. Just paid for the S106. Our new build will have a footprint of 199sqm with an additional 84sqm on the first floor. Its  basically 2 pitched roofed rectangle buildings timber clad at right angles to one another with a flat roof link building in between. Now lots to plan and cost and I look forward to any advice as I will have lots of questions. I am not a builder but have some experience with my brothers self build nearing completion in Dorset. Basically it will be a  timber frame, lots of external and internal wall insulation with a seamed metal roof.  MHRV, UFH, thermal store and ashp or gshp.

 

My first (daft) question is has anyone used a steel portal frame within a timber frame as I had thoughts of putting the roof on asap, told you........

Please say hello

Regards

James. 

 

[Redoctober]

Welcome and sadly I have no idea what it is you are asking but maybe I will become as informed as you, once the others catch sight of your post!

Congratulations on getting so far and for getting involved with this forum.

PW.

[Grosey]

Hi where abouts are you? Saltash here. 

[Barney12]

Congrats. Lovely part of the world. 

If it's a replacement dwelling why have you had to pay S106?

[JamesP]

Hi Grosey, Near Buckfastleigh between Exeter and Plymouth.

[ProDave]

I was going to ask about the S106. Aren't self builders exempt from that now?

 

And welcome to the forum.
 

[JamesP]

Hi Barney and ProDave, The 106 was for our agreement regarding demolition, landscaping and bat mitigation. The fee was just to cover DNPA reasonable legal costs only.  

Edited November 15, 2016 by JamesP
Extra hello

[Gone West]

11 hours ago, JamesP said:

 

My first (daft) question is has anyone used a steel portal frame within a timber frame as I had thoughts of putting the roof on asap, told you........

Please say hello

 

 

Hello James, welcome to the forum. Are you asking about the steel frame because you think that would be quicker to erect than a timber frame in order to get the roof on. Mine is a portal timber I-beam frame which went up quickly.

Edited November 16, 2016 by PeterStarck

[PeterW]

12 hours ago, JamesP said:

My first (daft) question is has anyone used a steel portal frame within a timber frame as I had thoughts of putting the roof on asap, told you........

Please say hello

Regards

James. 

 

Welcome James

 

Most timber frames are up inside 1-2 weeks and pretty watertight at that point, not sure what a steel portal frame would add to the project other than complexity..?

 

Given your outline design, I would expect you could get each "module" watertight on its own without too much hassle inside a week.

[JamesP]

Hi Peter, Peter and Sensus

I will have over 225sqm of timber wall construction to build myself and the steel frame idea came about as during my brother's self build project he seemed to spend months getting wet as the roof went up last. He had loads of timber, chop saw, impact driver and time.  I also have concerns over the cost and cold bridging issue at the foundation.  I will investigate the timber portal route. Thanks all. 

[PeterW]

So the way I would approach that is to get a "workshop" built first that can accommodate a reasonable size panel with a flat slab base to work from. This could be as simple as building your link building temporarily.

 

From this, get a 20ft container to store your wood - a double ended one is idea as you can load the timber one end and then have your chopsaw set up at the other - and then cut and feed from your storage into your panel assembly area.

 

Completed panels can be stacked flat under a waterproof cover until you have enough to build your first structure. If you work on "standard" panel sizes using 8x4 models (think Segal buildings) then you can simplify your components accordingly and speed up your build. You may also want to build some templates or jigs to speed up the construction as its as simple as dropping the timber lengths in and gluing/nailing joints and panels.

[ProDave]

A few tips if you are making the frame yourself.

 

Try to design things to be simple to build. For instance a roof pitch of 45 degrees makes everything simple. If you had say chosen a roof pitch of 42 degrees, you would curse that decision at every single angle cut.

 

Make the panels, each one pre covered in it's outer membrane (plus overlap) so when you put the kit together you just have to staple to overlaps and it's almost instantly watertight.

 

Even if not in Scotland, I would suggest using the Scottish approach and clad the roof with solid sarking board (usually OSB or ply) then put the membrane on and almost instantly the roof is pretty watertight. Far better than the English method of flappy membrane or felt stretched across between rafters.

 

The length of time it will take to erect the frame and get it pretty watertight is insignificant in terms of what exposure to water the frame can withstand.

 

If you erect the first flor first and it will be a while before the second floor and roof goes on and you want a working platform, temporarily clad the floor in cheap OSB and regard it as disposable.
 

[JamesP]

Thanks Peter and ProDave

Your advice is appreciated. My brother fitted 100mm Udireco externally to walls and roof. Heavy panels but would like to fit something similar.

 

 

[ProDave]

53 minutes ago, JamesP said:

Thanks Peter and ProDave

Your advice is appreciated. My brother fitted 100mm Udireco externally to walls and roof. Heavy panels but would like to fit something similar.

 

 

I had not heard of Udireco before, but that is very similar to what I have used.  My timber frame is clad with 100mm thick Pavatex wood fibre board and then rendered direct onto the wood fibre. The other one I am aware of is Steico, but Pavatex worked out cheaper.  Having just googled Udireco, it seems the main difference is it has a soft backing layer to conform to irregular walls if retro fitting to an existing masonry building. you won't need that "feature" if fitting it to a new build timber frame, so have a look at Steico and Pavatex as well.

 

 

 As far as I know I am the only one on this forum to have used this system.  There are a number of subtle changes needed to the timber frame system if adopting this sort of cladding, one being the OSB racking layer goes on the inside of the frame (I lost count of how many people told me my frame had been put up inside out) And because i have no blockwork skin, the structural engineer specified some parts of the building need two layers of OSB on the inside to achieve sufficient racking strength.

 

There is lots more about it on my blog, but some of the early stuff still hasn't been copied over from my old blog on ebuild.

 

I did all the wood fibre cladding myself (though not the rendering) and only finished it earlier this year. Because it was a slow process and I knew it was going to take time to get it all clad, parts of the frame were just temporarily clad in a sheet of damp proof membrane to give it temporary protection from the weather.

 

[JamesP]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

As far as I know I am the only one on this forum to have used this system.  There are a number of subtle changes needed to the timber frame system if adopting this sort of cladding, one being the OSB racking layer goes on the inside of the frame (I lost count of how many people told me my frame had been put up inside out) And because i have no blockwork skin, the structural engineer specified some parts of the building need two layers of OSB on the inside to achieve sufficient racking strength.

 

My brother has OSB on the inside, batten then plasterboard. All joints taped. It was 100mm Uditop, not the Udireco.

[Ferdinand]

17 hours ago, ProDave said:

A few tips if you are making the frame yourself.

 

Try to design things to be simple to build. For instance a roof pitch of 45 degrees makes everything simple. If you had say chosen a roof pitch of 42 degrees, you would curse that decision at every single angle cut.

 

 

 

I think a roof pitch of 30 degrees is also good (eg for a bungalow) in build terms, since this gives measurements of 1 in ridge height for 2 along the surface of the roof,

 

You can play  the same games with eg 3 4 5 triangles for an angle of 37 degrees to keep measurements straightforward, though not quite as simple as 45 degrees.

 

Here is an article in HB&R about it, which also discusses aesthetics  (*)

https://www.homebuilding.co.uk/getting-the-right-pitch/

 

But I am sure you will get the balance.

 

Ferdinand

 

(*)

The centipede was happy, quite

until the frog in fun

said: "Pray, which leg goes after which?";

and worked her mind to such a pitch

she lay distracted in a ditch - 

considering how to run.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Ferdinand

[jack]

Surely the title of that article should have been "Pitch Perfect"? 

[Ferdinand]

6 minutes ago, jack said:

Surely the title of that article should have been "Pitch Perfect"? 

 

I rather suspect that there is no such thing :-).

[Crofter]

18 hours ago, ProDave said:

Try to design things to be simple to build. For instance a roof pitch of 45 degrees makes everything simple. If you had say chosen a roof pitch of 42 degrees, you would curse that decision at every single angle cut.

 

Erm, yep, only a numpty like me would build a 42 degree roof. It allowed me to clad the building in available lengths of timber without joins. I suppose it has made things a little more difficult but it just requires a little bit of head scratching at times.

[Ferdinand]

Verse 2:

 

The centipede returned from lunch;

her head was in a spinner.

Her fury rose to that same pitch,

she dug a trench and drained the ditch.

slow-boiled a pan without a hitch,

and ate frog's legs for dinner.

 

(Gets coat)

Edited November 17, 2016 by Ferdinand

[JamesP]

Hi Buildhub Community,

 

We have finally started and was enquiring about setting up a blog to document progress. Can you enlighten me how to go about it.

Thank you.

James.

 

[ProDave]

1 hour ago, JamesP said:

Hi Buildhub Community,

 

We have finally started and was enquiring about setting up a blog to document progress. Can you enlighten me how to go about it.

Thank you.

James.

 

You need to send a PM to one of the administrators and ask them, and they will set it up for you  @TerryE @PeterW or @recoveringacademic

[PeterW]

Done... 

 

Go to the top of the Blog page and on the right you will see a Start Blog button

[JamesP]

Thank you both. Will do.