Lack of transparency in solar PV quotes

[scottishjohn]

13 minutes ago, joth said:

 

The bar of proof on them is very low as it was a "package quote".  All they have to do is send an invoice for something like:

Components actually provided = £X

Labour & administration = £Y

Profit = £Z

And ensure that the sum of X+Y+Z matches what they billed you for.

 

While it would be polite for them to make the value of X be reasonable, they've got a fair degree of liberty to freely choose the values they want for Y and Z. After all you have no contract that states they can't cover their backend costs, or places any cap on the profit they may make. You can go back and forward digging heels in and insisting they provide this itemized invoice, but I can't see how, if forced to, they could ever fail to invent one that you have no recourse against, unless the profit really does come out so obscene and you can make an argument you are a vulnerable individual and victim to pressure or fraudulent selling.

 

Otherwise I think you need to put less emphasis on having them prove they haven't charged you for things you didn't want, and instead  argue you were genuinely expecting to receive an additional, redundant charger/inverter. But the fact it's taken you so long to notice the lack of it somewhat diminishes that.

for others it shows how important a proper itemised quote and signed supply contract is 

[Ed Davies]

Am I understanding the situation?

 

1) @Home Farm got multiple quotes for different configurations, some including a battery and inverter/charger and some not.

 

2) The final quote, as all concerned appeared to understand, was for a system which wouldn't have batteries and so wouldn't need an inverter/charger. That quote still listed an inverter/charger but that was an obvious clerical error left over from previous quotes. Nevertheless, both parties agreed to it.

 

3) The system was installed and is now operating as expected, without batteries, and @Home Farm has been presented with an invoice for the originally agreed amount.

 

4) @Home Farm is now kicking up a fuss because he can't find the inverter/charger.

[H F]

You're right ScottishJohn.

 

When we ordered the panels, I had very little idea about what comprised a system - as a first time buyer you are in the hands of installers. Most of you have had solar systems before, so you know the drill. This is a first for us, and solar PVs are quite complex with a lot of tech involved.

 

I genuinely had no idea whether we needed one, two, three or 10 inverters. No clue what optimisers were and how many we were supposed to get. So we signed off on a proposal. It's only after a solution has been installed that you begin to understand the full picture. And that's where I am today; I can see that we didn't need the Victron inverter, yet it appears we have been charged for it, despite the installer being adamant that we haven't.

 

The lesson here for people new to solar PV is to get fully itemised lists with breakdowns because it avoids confusion, ambiguity and uncertainly. 

 

We had no issues with the ASHP installation team and suppliers  - they clearly stipulated what we were getting - six months down the line, I see that we paid for and what we got was spot on. This has not been the case in this solar PV scenario. 

[H F]

16 minutes ago, Ed Davies said:

Am I understanding the situation?

 

1) @Home Farm got multiple quotes for different configurations, some including a battery and inverter/charger and some not.

 

2) The final quote, as all concerned appeared to understand, was for a system which wouldn't have batteries and so wouldn't need an inverter/charger. That quote still listed an inverter/charger but that was an obvious clerical error left over from previous quotes. Nevertheless, both parties agreed to it.

 

3) The system was installed and is now operating as expected, without batteries, and @Home Farm has been presented with an invoice for the originally agreed amount.

 

4) @Home Farm is now kicking up a fuss because he can't find the inverter/charger.

 

Correct.

 

I'm not kicking up a fuss about not being able to find the inverter/charger. It was never provided, and the installer has confirmed this. We take issue that we appear to still being charged for it though, despite the installer saying we have not been charged for it. 

 

While we were remiss in not spotting this prior to approving the order, we had no idea that it should not have been there to start with. If we have to pay, so be it, but then we should be entitled to receiving the Victron inverter which I'll flog on eBay.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Home Farm

[H F]

40 minutes ago, joth said:

 

The bar of proof on them is very low as it was a "package quote".  All they have to do is send an invoice for something like:

Components actually provided = £X

Labour & administration = £Y

Profit = £Z

And ensure that the sum of X+Y+Z matches what they billed you for.

 

While it would be polite for them to make the value of X be reasonable, they've got a fair degree of liberty to freely choose the values they want for Y and Z. After all you have no contract that states they can't cover their backend costs, or places any cap on the profit they may make. You can go back and forward digging heels in and insisting they provide this itemized invoice, but I can't see how, if forced to, they could ever fail to invent one that you have no recourse against, unless the profit really does come out so obscene and you can make an argument you are a vulnerable individual and victim to pressure or fraudulent selling.

 

Otherwise I think you need to put less emphasis on having them prove they haven't charged you for things you didn't want, and instead  argue you were genuinely expecting to receive an additional, redundant charger/inverter. But the fact it's taken you so long to notice the lack of it somewhat diminishes that.

 

Would there be any benefit taking this to the ombudsman?

[dpmiller]

we'll never be able to tell you if you paid too much if we don't know how much you paid...

4k?

8k?

more?

[SteamyTea]

Hunt around and see how much a battery pack and invert/charger for it is, then see if your quote still makes sense.

 

I would think, though not been involved in this for a few years that a 6 kW system would be around £10,000.  Maybe a bit more, or less depending on how hard the install was.  Scaffolding is not free remember.

[H F]

13 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

we'll never be able to tell you if you paid too much if we don't know how much you paid...

4k?

8k?

more?

 

I wasn't withholding how much we paid: £8.2k

[SteamyTea]

Then they have not charged you for anything else.

That is not a bad quote/price paid.

[H F]

12 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Hunt around and see how much a battery pack and invert/charger for it is, then see if your quote still makes sense.

 

I did - Victron's product line is enormous and it falls beyond my levels of comprehension on what size/model/type should have come with this system. Again, this brings me full circle to the transparency (and vagueness) issue - all I have to go on from their paperwork is "Victron Battery Charger/Inverter"

 

To be honest, based on the quote, they've cited SolarEdge Inverter - there was nothing preventing them from a 1kW inverter had they had the inclination to do so.

[H F]

3 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Then they have not charged you for anything else.

That is not a bad quote/price paid.

 

I didn't think that we had overpaid - thanks for the prompt feedback and for providing some clarity.

 

How much do these Victron inverters go for - I saw some for a couple of hundred quid - others were in the thousands. 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Home Farm

[SteamyTea]

1 minute ago, Home Farm said:

there was nothing preventing them from a 1kW inverter had they had the inclination to do so.

Except the MCS rules.

Some suppliers may push the limits a bit, but not that much.

[joth]

13 minutes ago, Home Farm said:

How much do these Victron inverters go for - I saw some for a couple of hundred quid - others were in the thousands. 

It depends entirely on the size of the battery, the rate you want to charge/discharge it at, and any additional features you might need (like load transfer switching / offgrid backup mode / multiple input/output voltage or phase support / remote monitoring etc etc)

 

Your question as it stands is comparable to "how much does a car engine go for? I don't know what car it will go in".

[Ed Davies]

3 hours ago, Home Farm said:

I'm not kicking up a fuss about not being able to find the inverter/charger. It was never provided, and the installer has confirmed this. We take issue that we appear to still being charged for it though, despite the installer saying we have not been charged for it. 

 

But you were charged for a package. The total price won't be the sum of the parts - they'll internally obviously start with their cost of the parts and add their markup and subtract a bit of a discount for the amount you're buying then think about the amount of labour to install it all and so on and come to a price. If you'd decided to take one of the earlier options with the batteries and inverter/charger it might have been, say, £4000 more expensive. But if you go back to them now and say, “oh, I've changed my mind, I'd like the batteries, etc, after all” it'll be more than £4000 to retrofit it because of the extra travel, paperwork, and general messing around.

 

So, it really doesn't make sense to say whether or not you were charged for the inverter/charger. It's an obvious mistake in the quote and I'd expect them to apologise for it but if they say,  as they seem to be, nope, sorry, our overall package price wasn't worked out on the basis of supplying one of those then I think you really have to take that at face value.

 

[H F]

4 hours ago, joth said:

Your question as it stands is comparable to "how much does a car engine go for? I don't know what car it will go in".

so you can see my dilemma as that is the puzzle my installers left me with.

[Triassic]

Let’s say the Victron inverter costs £500.
 

Why not pay the invoice, if you can call few lines of text in an email an invoice,  less £500 for the Victron inverter they did not supply?

 

 

[Ed Davies]

1 hour ago, Triassic said:

Why not pay the invoice …  less £500 … ?

 

Because he'll finish up looking down the wrong end of a small-claims court action?

[PeterW]

... and part payment of a debt is acceptance of liability .... 

 

 

[Ferdinand]

 

On 24/10/2019 at 21:41, Home Farm said:

I know that most of you on this forum that have solar PV are very clued up on what should comprise a solar system in terms of kit and capacity.
 

Never having had solar before, and not knowing too much about the tech, when I’ve gone through my paperwork, solar installation quotes seem to lack transparency and specificity. Not a single quote I received stated the size of the inverter they’d install or the number of optimizers - just the brand is mentioned. They’re all vague, and they harp on about savings... 

 

Is this lack of detail common practice amongst solar PV installers?

 

Mine was exemplary, and I will forward you all the info in a minute. I had a couple of hours on the initial survey, followed by qs and consultation. A proposal and design, 2 quotes, one revised quote, not just model numbers but data sheets for everything (Optimisers, Inverters, Panels) attached to the two versions of the quote using Black and Normal panels. The Proposal was a 13 page document including method statements for both the panel installation and scaffolding build. 

 

I do not think it would make difference to the documentation supplied, which looks standard, but I did have quotes for 3 houses at once, which may have given it a little more attention. As an indicator of price competitiveness level, one was under £5k for a 4kWp black panel installation on a bungalow for an Oct 2015 quote. So they were potentially after a £20k order.

They also gave me details of 3 other largish (7-8kW) similar customer installations within 5 miles I could drive by if required. If I was concerned I would have gone and knocked on the doors and asked for an opinion. 

 

The only problem was a couple of cracked roof tiles.

 

But I spent perhaps 3-5 days of my time on all the stuff. Even though I was rushing, the process still took an elapsed 4 months,

 

On 25/10/2019 at 15:10, Home Farm said:

The lesson here for people new to solar PV is to get fully itemised lists with breakdowns because it avoids confusion, ambiguity and uncertainly. 

 

I think the single most important lesson for Self Builders is not to do anything you are not sure you understand. Once you do that, then the demand for detail will follow as part of that learning process. Take your project seriously and give it the time it needs, and a good contractor should do the same. Take the time, or have someone on your side who is a trusted and competent adviser. I think taking a detailed interest from the start is critical. I had some requirements like the potential to move a lot of  panels onto the South side and needing the install to support that without buggering it all up, and interesting wire runs due to rooms in roof.

 

I would add that the way to save money is always to find ways to reduce price for a good product or supplier without shafting either of you, rather than going for a cheap option due to price. Price opt8misation is step 2.

 

On 25/10/2019 at 15:47, SteamyTea said:

I would think, though not been involved in this for a few years that a 6 kW system would be around £10,000.  Maybe a bit more, or less depending on how hard the install was.  Scaffolding is not free remember.

 

My 10kWp system - perhaps not dissimilar to @Home Farm's with 35 black on black panels, Solaredge on the lot, and two SolarEdge inverters - came to £11.8k in Jan 2016. That was with them including all the paperwork for the larger G2 grid connection, and scaffolding. It is also 3 aspect on 3 E and W roofs - one with 28 panels is a big roof from 2.5m level with about 6 rows of landscape format panels (easier), the other two (3 panels and 4 panels) are difficult and high. I had 2 or 3 men for 4 days. I also got 2 spare panels and 2 spare optimisers as freebies when I asked just before signing the dotted line (following Jeremy's example).

 

But that was a very good price I think - better than I thought at the time. Bluntly, I would estimate the equivalent at £6.5-6.75 k in 2019 for a 6kW system - based on £1100 per kWp in 2019 rather than £1180 per kWp in 2016 based on tech improvement but a smaller order, for my local company in our cheapish area (North Notts) for my particular house. I have ignored the probably unchanged scaff price,  but been cautious on the improvement in panel prices. Would be negotiating to aim for just under 6k or less.

 

Finally, @Home Farm, you need all the docs for the future:

 

If you are registerinng the system (was it long enough ago to be done for FITs - I think before end of Match 2019?) then you  will need follow up paperwork, commissioning etc.

 

Another reason for needing your invoice will be guarantees etc as proof of purchase. And if you did not get what the equipment supplier thought was designed, you may end up with problems with future support etc. Sounds as though your supplier might not be friendly - mine has refocused on batteries so may still be around for the next decade or so.

 

Not trying to grand stand here .. this is one I got right so far. And aiming to help you for do well on the next thing.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited October 27, 2019 by Ferdinand

[H F]

Excellent point F. I do have an invoice from the installers they provided for our FiT application and the anomalies continue. The amounts are different. I’m not going to post it here yet, as I’ll be taking this up further today with the installers. Thanks for raising FiT, as this has definitely provided me with the proof we’ve been charged for the Victron.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Home Farm

[ProDave]

32 minutes ago, Home Farm said:

Excellent point F. I do have an invoice from the installers they provided got out FiT and the anomalies continue. The amounts are different. I’m not going to post it here yet, as I’ll be taking this up further today with the installers. Thanks for raising FiT, as this has definitely provided me with the proof we’ve been charged for the Victron.

Are you saying the amount you receive in FIT payments is different to what you are quoted?

 

You will have been given an estimate, based on estimated generation as calculated by PVGIS.  you actual payment will be based on actual metered generation, which may be different, and may be significantly lower if there is any shading to the panels.  Also the FIT rate may have changed between your quote and your system actually being installed.

 

Unless the system is faulty and some of the panels are not working, then I doubt you have any claim in this respect.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

It's pretty easy to look at PVGIS ( https://re.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pvg_tools/en/tools.html ) and see what your predicted generation will be.  PVGIS is fairly accurate, I've found it to be within a few percent of what we usually generate.

 

[H F]

No @ProDave. What I meant was that the quotation, and corresponding invoice, is a different amount to the invoice provided to me by the installer, indicating that they are trying to charge us for the Victron that we never received.

[dpmiller]

you've TWO invoices?

[H F]

4 hours ago, dpmiller said:

you've TWO invoices?

Yes, with different amounts. Same job numbers too. 

Edited October 28, 2019 by Home Farm