Concrete pour in heavy rain.

[zoothorn]

16 minutes ago, bissoejosh said:

 

Building control?

 

They don't have the power to tell builder1 to do the T.Frame fast please bc zoot's old founds & below it are exposed to elements & eroding.. they can't give him the hurry up. That'll only make him do the opposite.. they're colleagues, but not the perfect bedfellows like builder 1&2 are.

[Redoctober]

4 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

They don't have the power to tell builder1 to do the T.Frame fast please bc zoot's old founds & below it are exposed to elements & eroding.. they can't give him the hurry up. 

 

Maybe so but that is YOUR job or someone acting on your behalf if you feel you can't communicate with the builder - As I said earlier - 

 

You are beginning to answer your own concerns - If you think he won't turn up for 4  weeks due to you raising an issue with him or just asking him what his plan is, then get rid of him and get a new builder in - What is there to lose? You never know, the new builder might be able to start within a week /10 days? Who knows?

 

As for regulating their work, there are systems in place - YOU the client and YOUR wallet!! It has been mentioned many times on here that YOU are in control and you should take control - 

 I know what I would be doing and I think deep down you do too. You deserve to be treated better by your builder so take a stand - get your Tarp in place, sack your builder and get a new one in place. If it takes 3-4 weeks what have you lost - Nothing according to your calculations!!

[Roundtuit]

19 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

My 350mm step down is perfectly clear. My plan is absolutely clear. The reason why I'm 700mm down, instead of 350mm (IE precisely an additional 350mm) is perfectly, absolutely & abundantly clear. Its been added to the 2000mm. Only someone whose either an idiot, or, who has loose reasonably intelligent but looked at it only briefly & with arrogance at its simplicity & with too much haste.. has simply cracked on to quickly.

 

Hmm... is there perhaps a side elevation to the plan that we haven't seen yet?

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, PeterW said:

Right. So slab is in - any insulation under that ..??

 

 

Is he having the timber frame built offsite or doing it on site ..??

 

I don't think the slab is complete yet, is it? no insulation as of yet no. I have a lip of 100mm to fill yet to get to the top of the 2x block.. but I've no idea what happens next (insulation/ scree I believe.. but 50mm/50mm or 75mm/25mm? Ive no idea how thick standard floor scree is so cannot answer).. whether another brick or block is to go on the petimeter, therefore if my floor height -is- this.. or not who knows. Builder2 told me it was, which means 100mm to fill. I can only assume 50mm insulation, 50mm scree if 25mm is too little for scree. In which case its -not- what I suggested we go for at last speaking on this matter: here I said please go for 100mm polystyrene/ the standard please/ final. Before I'd asked for 50mm, if allowed by BCO, as I was tight for height @ 2000mm you see (IE scavenging 2" extra onto my 2000mm room height).. now that plan is n/a as I'm so damn deep, but seems maybe we're going this 50mm PIR route: if so then a definite miscommunication, & of concern. But nothing compared to the structural surity of my main flippin house end wall.

 

I believe offsite. Builder2 told me Timber Frame Co be on site today, so all prepared for them.. but no-one appeared.

Edited October 16, 2019 by zoothorn

[PeterW]

Just now, zoothorn said:

Ive no idea how thick standard floor scree is so cannot answer

Floor screed with sand and cement wants to be 100mm. Insulation for minimum building regs needs to be 85mm PIR for an extension (I think as not got regs to hand)

 

I would get another course of block on - ask them to do it to bring it up and also cover the side of the wall. 

[zoothorn]

1 minute ago, Roundtuit said:

Hmm... is there perhaps a side elevation to the plan that we haven't seen yet?

 

Hi Roundtit,

 

no I wasn't required to do one (in fact it took me 12 hours flat out to do this plan, plus two overhead room views.. so another side plan was too much for me to attempt, & my builder was happy with these alone).

 

I admit though (ggod Q) that a side view would have been hugely & pertinently useful, with regard to the drop down, in retrospect now. I just couldn't have envisaged such a child's page1 error as has occured. Its pure bad luck, one huge sod's law considering how often I spoke about how critical this drop was to the whole build (ALL abc xyz follows this one floor position).

 

can you see my plan though, page 8 I think. Do you think my 350mm is clear? do you agree as to my thinking on how we've gone an extra 350mm down? no-one has said they agree with me, but Ive never seen anything as clear as to a cause of an error.. in my entire life.

[zoothorn]

7 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Floor screed with sand and cement wants to be 100mm. Insulation for minimum building regs needs to be 85mm PIR for an extension (I think as not got regs to hand)

 

I would get another course of block on - ask them to do it to bring it up and also cover the side of the wall. 

 

 

So hang on, if I have a perimeter of block filled within it 100mm shy of the lip with (afaict) a concrete pour.. & I need minimum 85mm of insulation plus 100mm of screed, then this cannot happen, in my case -without- adding another course of something on the block.. or it'll just either pour over the edge/ not be contained by a perimeter.. or what??

 

Why have I got a 100mm drop to fill if I need 85mm min insulation.. can the scree be minimum 15mm then??

[PeterW]

1 minute ago, zoothorn said:

can the scree be minimum 15mm then??

no

 

1 minute ago, zoothorn said:

contained by a perimeter.. or what??

could be contained by a sole plate on the timber frame but would be unusual 

[zoothorn]

Just now, PeterW said:

no

 

could be contained by a sole plate on the timber frame but would be unusual 

 

So I can only deduce from this, that my 2x 9" block height.. 100% cannot therefore be.. my floor height. In order to be up to BRegs, I 100% definitely need some additional height (I assume in the form of a perimeter 'wall' of some material maybe 1x brick).

 

Is this true?

[zoothorn]

Unless some insulation -has- gone in under the black plastic. But I've been keeping tabs on every tiny stage of it. I did miss the dumper FO'ing into the forest with the earth I assumed was to be piled & backfilled.. so god knows. Where is it meant to go? I tyhought its usually above this black dpc, & above the concrete section that's curing right now, with more concrete ontop of it.

 

JesusH christ I'm so confused.

[andyscotland]

@zoothorn you are going in circles. First thing's first, you need to take a deep breath and a step back.

 

Next, you need to work out how to move forward. Please try to read the following as an attempt to help, not an attack.

 

We all understand you are on a build notice, not a full plans.

 

The problem is, in normal circumstances - regardless of how you choose to deal with the council - you would have a drawing showing e.g. whether the insulation is above the slab or below, how thick it is, how it and the screed meets the external walls, all the questions you are asking us on here.

 

You may not care about the u-value, but you must understand the insulation has a thickness. And therefore it will affect the depth of dig and, depending on position, the height of the slab surface, since it needs to sit somewhere between the ground and your finished floor.

 

It is quite possible that the insulation is going on the slab, that this and other construction elements are going to add up to about 350mm and that your builder is bang on track to deliver the floor height you wanted. If so, it is also possible that your builder is finding you hard to work with, that reassurance and detail he's attempted to provide doesn't appear to be going in, and that he's doing his best to deliver your project through a flurry of continual panic attack, second-guessing and secret measuring.

 

It is also quite possible he has it wrong, and plans to belligerently insist you accommodate or pay to fix his mistake.

 

If you had a set of drawings, it would take you seconds to look at them and establish which of these possibilities is the case. It would then be easy to either relax, or to put your foot down and insist the builder puts things right before payment.

 

You chose not to pay a professional to produce those drawings. You chose not to spend the time to research the detail of building construction and draw them yourself.

 

I understand why @Onoff's "fag packet" comment upset you, but I can also see that - against advice given here - you have spent a lot of time producing a beautifully presented drawing that does not actually communicate any more information than a rough sketch would have. Further, one in which things that are critical to you - like the height from existing house floor level - are not explicitly labelled but rely on implied knowledge (there are lots of things a dashed line could represent).

 

The builder may well be happy with it, but that does not change the fact it is not clear enough to give you certainty or confidence over what's being built.

 

When you complain on here that builders have huge power, and that there is "nobody in the client's corner" : that is not normally the case. You have chosen to have nobody in your corner by choosing to run your project based on trust, informal communication, and the sparsest of details about what you want. Your builder didn't prevent you using an architect, and nor did we.

 

It is important to take this on board, because if you do not get to grips with your role in the process you will continue to have the same problems whether you continue with this builder or (as some have advised) sack and replace him.

 

So, moving forward you essentially have two options:

 

* Convince yourself that your plan is perfect, that you have crossed every t, that only a "fkin idiot" could misunderstand it, and that you have the best builder in the western world. If so, trust them to do their job, stop asking questions, go on holiday, come back when they're done and enjoy the extension.

 

* Accept that you have created a situation with a lot of room for error in which ongoing conversation is going to be crucial. Approach your builder with this tone - come from a place of "I'm worried I didn't make the floor level clear enough, and it looks low to me : can you talk me through what's going on top of the concrete and mark on my wall where the floor level will end up?" If that's not as expected, discuss the options for resolving it. Stop asking us to guess what your builder may or may have done or be going to do and ask him.

[andyscotland]

@zoothorn looking ahead, the other major thing that jumps out at me on your section drawing is door frame height.

 

It is not clear whether the 1900 is the clear opening inside the frame, the height of the actual door, or the structural opening that the frame will sit inside. 1900 is low for any of those, but significantly so for a structural opening as by the time you have frame, movement gap, etc you will be well down into the low 1800s.

 

This is further complicated as the 1900 on the ground floor appears to be measured from the underside of the cill (which is some arbitrary amount above floor level?) but to the inside of the frame at the top. And the frame appears to be rebated into the wall above the height of the ceiling.

 

It will be very hard to fix this later if the heads of the door openings get set at the wrong height so I'd really strongly recommend revisiting how those details are specified, drawn, labelled and dimensioned...

[ToughButterCup]

8 hours ago, zoothorn said:

[...]

JesusH christ I'm so confused.

 

Apart from BH members and your builder, to whom have you talked about your extension?

I ask because  you seem to me to be over-reliant on the written content in  BH posts.  Asynchronous communication loses so much important stuff - tone - humour - emphasis - mood.

 

Having an informal person-to-person chat about this with anyone - anyone at all - can be  helpful. It helps us all.  I am not suggesting you ask for detailed advice from professionals - merely that you let off steam.

 

[zoothorn]

@andyscotland please just forget the door at the moment, its an absolute triviality in the mix right now. It'll totally change, as will the interior room heights (both) due to this dreadful mistake from this builder2. Yes its his mistake, no I do not accept it is mine not whatsoever: it is NOT a fag packet sketch. I take exception this this after alot of very hard work. if anything was unclear, my builder would have said (at the time of going tru it, or just prior to commencing work.. as he'd have to have discussed with no2 even as I think a mere 2 min chat at 7am). Its more a problem that I'm simply english, & the lower caste therefore 'we do it as fast as possible, with minimum concentration, & onto next job' than anything I've done as to reasoning for why this dimwitted mistake has occured. NOW I feel like firing the b'stards. But now, you're all "its you its you.. they're all fine what can they do" nicely nicely talking up them: only yesterday you were all FIRE THEM!

 

The height of room 1 is clear. The height of dividing floor is clear. The height of upper room is clear. The sum of these is 4500. I have 4950.

 

It can be argued (extremely thinly, desperately thinly, & -only- from the pov of gunning for the builder & not for me.. which is exactly what I now feel here.. & tallies with the feeling of bullying I get from n'bors somewhat) that my 350 is not clear as to where it is. Please look at the lower point, & cast an eye a few cm's left.. its abundantly clear it marries with the floor level. I do not accept you could argue its not, unless, you're resolutely on the builder's side & not mine.

 

At the moment I've just had another panic on & total sleeplessness due to it: its just occured to me, that the level as it is now/ the shiny concrete in last photo, is not going to be added to, but the flaming final floor level! (insulation having been put in is now my hunch). Which adds insult to injury as its 100mm shy of the block lip. So, in all I'm 450mm too deep.. not 350mm.

[zoothorn]

31 minutes ago, AnonymousBosch said:

 

Apart from BH members and your builder, to whom have you talked about your extension?

I ask because  you seem to me to be over-reliant on the written content in  BH posts.  Asynchronous communication loses so much important stuff - tone - humour - emphasis - mood.

 

Having an informal person-to-person chat about this with anyone - anyone at all - can be  helpful. It helps us all.  I am not suggesting you ask for detailed advice from professionals - merely that you let off steam.

 

 

Again, the tone is "its you.. they're fine". I feel another innevitable forum-gathering together (Ive given my opinion as to whty I believe this happens.. it won't stop it happening) post after post. It feels like an excuse for this mistake.

 

My builder no2 even ADMITTED he was too deep!! lying thru his teeth (I could tell, with my fkn tape measure he lifted on his hip [I left it out overnight, my work tape with important marks along it, & next morning awol/ he assumed a trade had left it & pocketed it] which doesn't exactly give me confidence alone in either what he says or the work done) "I have gone 80mm too deep" all sheepishly. Bllx: it was dawning on him, I could tell by his expression, that he'd just looked at plan again, considered why I kept asking "is that the floor level??" increasingly worryingly.. & realised the major error. Plain as day to see. So to cover himself, as an admission-of-sorts (like the kid who stole 'maybe yes one sweetie' not the whole pack) he admits 80mm. Childishness is SO obvious to perceive (we're wired to notice it) even if its a grown up being the child. A bit of psychology at 7.28am to add, whooda thunk it.

 

So, is this '80mm' my mistake too? please..

Edited October 17, 2019 by zoothorn

[dpmiller]

and yet still we don't know where and how much insulation will be (was?) fitted. Have you now decided that this poured slab is the finished floor? Why?

 

So regardless of what bricks and blocks are currently in place, your FFL can be ANYWHERE between where it is now and maybe 400mm higher. We don't know. You don't know. Your builder does. Is he correct? You don't know, we don't know.

[ToughButterCup]

13 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Again, the tone is "its you.. they're fine". I feel another innevitable forum-gathering together (Ive given my opinion as to whty I believe this happens.. it won't stop it happening) post after post. It feels like an excuse for this mistake.

[...]

 

Quite the opposite. My concern is for you and you only.

I'm trying gently to suggest you have a chat about the build with someone other than  BH contributors. Nothing more.

[Russell griffiths]

This is so easy to sort out, 

you are adamant that you are correct and your builder is at fault 

go out side and mark on the wall finished floor height, not a dot or a mark on the render, a bloody great straight line. 

Phone builder

get builder on site and ask him how he believes he will get your floor up to this height 

 

Outcome 1. builder agrees to get floor to this height at his cost,  bingo carry on

outcome 2. He tells you it’s your fault and he won’t do anything, pay him for his time so far and move on, get another builder. 

 

You may find he is happy to walk away. 

 

[PeterW]

13 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Again, the tone is "its you.. they're fine". I feel another innevitable forum-gathering together (Ive given my opinion as to whty I believe this happens.. it won't stop it happening) post after post. It feels like an excuse for this mistake.

 

If you read that last post from @AnonymousBosch as an attack then you need to stop, walk away and get a coffee and come back in a while. 
 

That was him/us asking if you have anyone to talk to about this other than the forum and the builder. 
 

You are asking the opinion of 3,000 people, and giving no useful pictures, no guidance on what was originally agreed, and more importantly, not listening to the advice you’ve been given. 
 

If I wasn’t 150 miles away, I would come over and have a look, and try and give some advice but I can’t. So, you need to either take the advice given - such as call the builder and talk to him about it, or you need to just let him carry on, and when it’s done you can show us a picture of the end result. 
 

 

[zoothorn]

39 minutes ago, AnonymousBosch said:

 

Apart from BH members and your builder, to whom have you talked about your extension?

I ask because  you seem to me to be over-reliant on the written content in  BH posts.  Asynchronous communication loses so much important stuff - tone - humour - emphasis - mood.

 

Having an informal person-to-person chat about this with anyone - anyone at all - can be  helpful. It helps us all.  I am not suggesting you ask for detailed advice from professionals - merely that you let off steam.

 

 

To answer your Q ABosch, I've talked to an architect (who 1st suggested a 350mm step down, to aid my limited overall H) drew it up as the innitial 'overall' Planning application drawings, from which I pretty much put the same information, just clearer/ bigger, when it came to the build plan.  And also a couple/ friends I've made here who've done alot themselves, had an outbuilding local build, who provide enthusiasm.. if not technical know how.

 

Good Q re. my seeming reliance on BH posts: no, this is due only to my being single/ no family to help, or anyone I know in the whole country well: I am very much alone (& that's good! tho it has its limiting factors of course). So yes hence I come here more often than many on here would- I like it here & the help is overwhelmingly terrific (the pack thing is the fly in the soup & to be put up with, just my opinion as said).

 

I've been discussing this build & even the design of it to a degree, with builder1 for over 1.5 years off & on. Extensively so within last 6 months, as he's in village often, so popped in for a chat fairly often.

[andyscotland]

19 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

@andyscotland please just forget the door at the moment, its an absolute triviality in the mix right now. It'll totally change, as will the interior room heights (both) due to this dreadful mistake from this builder2.

 

Right, but I give the example to say a) when it does you need to make it much, much, clearer what height it is that you have specified or you will get another "dreadful mistake" and b) your drawing is not as explicit and clear as you think it is.

 

19 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Yes its his mistake, no I do not accept it is mine not whatsoever: it is NOT a fag packet sketch. I take exception this this after alot of very hard work. if anything was unclear, my builder would have said (at the time of going tru it, or just prior to commencing work.. as he'd have to have discussed with no2 even as I think a mere 2 min chat at 7am). Its more a problem that I'm simply english, & the lower caste therefore 'we do it as fast as possible, with minimum concentration, & onto next job' than anything I've done as to reasoning for why this dimwitted mistake has occured. NOW I feel like firing the b'stards. But now, you're all "its you its you.. they're all fine what can they do" nicely nicely talking up them: only yesterday you were all FIRE THEM!

 

I'm not saying fire them, or don't fire them.

 

I'm saying if you get another builder, give them the same drawing, and deal with them in the same way you are setting yourself up for similar problems.

 

19 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

The height of room 1 is clear. The height of dividing floor is clear. The height of upper room is clear. The sum of these is 4500. I have 4950.

 

It can be argued (extremely thinly, desperately thinly, & -only- from the pov of gunning for the builder & not for me.. which is exactly what I now feel here.. & tallies with the feeling of bullying I get from n'bors somewhat) that my 350 is not clear as to where it is. Please look at the lower point, & cast an eye a few cm's left.. its abundantly clear it marries with the floor level. I do not accept you could argue its not, unless, you're resolutely on the builder's side & not mine.

 

It is all abundantly clear to you. It is not abundantly clear to me, certainly not looking only at the drawing without hearing your explanation. A drawing is a method of communication, and should speak for itself.

 

"I have 4950" - well yes, you may do. But at this point you have no idea what you have measured that 4950 to. Is it the finished floor? The bottom of the screed? The bottom of the insulation? Heck, from the information we know it could even be the top of an oversite with a void and suspended floor to be built above.

 

Unless you know for certain what point in the structure the 4950 goes to, there is no point even attempting to compare it to the 4500. It could be out by miles, or it could be bang on.

 

19 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

At the moment I've just had another panic on & total sleeplessness due to it: its just occured to me, that the level as it is now/ the shiny concrete in last photo, is not going to be added to, but the flaming final floor level! (insulation having been put in is now my hunch). Which adds insult to injury as its 100mm shy of the block lip. So, in all I'm 450mm too deep.. not 350mm.

 

Why is it now your hunch that insulation has already been put in? You've said you watched carefully and didn't see it. Surely you'd have seen it delivered to / sitting on site even if you missed the moment it went in the hole?

 

This is my point : you are working yourself up to a point of panic based on hunches, because a) you don't have a drawing that would answer your question and b) in the absence of that you're not willing to just ask the builder.

 

You really need to try to stop letting your imagination run away with you, and focus on improving communication (including ideally drawing lines on bits of paper or on the structure, as a much more foolproof way to avoid misunderstandings).

 

If you continue as you are, you are setting yourself up to continue panicking and to continue having problems. It well may be that you also need to fire the builder - their attitude as described to us is very concerning, but we only have one side of the picture.

[zoothorn]

13 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

and yet still we don't know where and how much insulation will be (was?) fitted. Have you now decided that this poured slab is the finished floor? Why?

 

So regardless of what bricks and blocks are currently in place, your FFL can be ANYWHERE between where it is now and maybe 400mm higher. We don't know. You don't know. Your builder does. Is he correct? You don't know, we don't know.

 

No, another good Q (really apprteciated chaps- thanks for sticking by) its only a panic assumption at 5.40AM & sweat on I admit. I do think this now tho as 1) builder2 has jumped off, signifying the groundwork done/ so I assume the floor.. & 2) the machine leveler thing [white bar across/ jiggy/ 2-stroke engine between] I now think was a floor finisher. Tho the damn floor isn't very level, with an offset of 3/4" across where rain water has pooled.

 

True, yes in theory I agree the FFL is not a certainty its done/ as is.. but what about this machine thing & fact builder2 has finished his chunk of work on this build? IE a handshake (thief) & "be round sat to pick up digger' all ok?" & talk of maybe doing the blockwork cladding/ may not-? does that not tell you it -is- the FFL?

[zoothorn]

@andyscotland yes all points taken on board. I am resolute (not arrogantly so) that my 2300 +200 +2000 is clear as can possibly be. 4.5m to ground floor.

 

I didn't see the insulation, no, but I have to work from inside house/ do not have clear sight of build (keep popping out to see) but a whole chunk of the floor appeared ~within an hour or so, like the black sheet covering what I'd now want to know underneath. I assumed from my book that concrete went on next > insulation > top screed last. So that's what I was waiting to see.. waiting for the H to increace after concrete poured. But it stayed same. Then "see you/ all done/ maybe doing cladding not sure". So was builder1 coming on to do finishing toches to groundwork? is groundwork done? the more time elases.. the more its dawning on me that perhaps its done. Meaning I'm an -additional- 100mm deep to the 350 definitely established by the builder2 error, because the concrete level is 100mm shy of the perimeter block top.

[jamiehamy]

I have taken time to read the full thread. Forums are just that, so I don't see any reason not to - it's your choice whether to take anything from this or not. 

 

I think there are two simple steps to be taken. 

 

1 - Mark the Finished Floor Level on the wall of the existing structure. That means quiet literally that - the level that you want the final floor to be. And communicate that clearly to the builder. Nothing else matters here - the FFL is the concern, therefore mark where it's to be and that supercedes the drawings. It's been stated the builder knows what he's doing - leave them to it. 

 

2 - You should step back entirely from this build after addressing the above and leave them to get on with it - you've said they are the best out there - so leave them to it. I get a real sense you are causing more problems than you are solving. Having read this thread from start to finish, the sense I get is that you are not really getting to grip effectively with the technical design. I say that respectfully and gathered from your own words. It is full of contradictions and all sorts of anomalies that others have pointed out. That's a fairly blunt response but there is no sugar coating this - you're out of your depth, but you have a competent builder, so leave them to do it. Your drawings are not clear in the slightest (I say that knowing you think the opposite) and therefore you have no right whatsoever to complain about things not being how you thoughts they would be. That's a decision you took - you can't have your cake and eat it - you can't provide the most basic level of drawings and then think you have a right to complain when the actual build isn't how you envisaged it - you should have done full drawings. 

 

This thread is, as others have said, going in circles. It's no problem being out of your depth - many here will admit to that, and that's what we're here for - but most will accept advice, filter through the various views, and act directly one way or another. Reading through this thread, there's been much good advice that it appears you ignore and provide excuses as to why - mostly blaming the builder who one minute is great and  next will tell you to f*** off and walk off the site. That's whats' lead me to make this comment. ANd that's probably why someone suggested it's a wind up. 

 

I say this with the best will in the world - lots of people have given great advice and for the most part, you won't act on it - if you won't sack this builder, then you must let them get on with it and stop interfering. There is no middle way as you are unable to work productively with this builder. All the best with the build. 

[zoothorn]

3 minutes ago, jamiehamy said:

.. technical design. I say that respectfully and gathered from your own words. It is full of contradictions and all sorts of anomalies that others have pointed out.

 

 

OkHi Jamie,

 

please elaborate/ tell me of: the 1st contradiction, & the 1st anomally.