jamiehamy Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, zoothorn said: OkHi Jamie, please elaborate/ tell me of: the 1st contradiction, & the 1st anomally. Contradiction: "Thing is as much as I say I trust my builder(s).. with my experience here (nash xyz & bullying) its left me totally devoid of trust for anyone welsh its sad to say, but, only natural. So when my 2nd in command (one of the nicest people Ive met -tho f's & blinds like the wind- so there are exceptions thank goodness of course) says 'all fine/ will be rock hard/ see you monday' I just don't trust its true." Elaboration: You say you trust your builder and in the next sentence say you don't trust him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 17, 2019 Author Share Posted October 17, 2019 Can someone tell me what usually happens on a typical groundwork ground floor for an extention. Just a standard build. I get the 2x 9" block perimeter ontop of the moat of founds. This I understand. Its between this work & the FFL.. can someone please tell me the typical layers to expect. One of the layers is 100mm polystyrene. This I understand (but where its to be found I do not). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 17, 2019 Author Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 minute ago, jamiehamy said: Contradiction: "Thing is as much as I say I trust my builder(s).. with my experience here (nash xyz & bullying) its left me totally devoid of trust for anyone welsh its sad to say, but, only natural. So when my 2nd in command (one of the nicest people Ive met -tho f's & blinds like the wind- so there are exceptions thank goodness of course) says 'all fine/ will be rock hard/ see you monday' I just don't trust its true." Elaboration: You say you trust your builder and in the next sentence say you don't trust him. No, "as much as I trust my builder" implies that my full trust in him is beginning to be of question ("as much as I".. is deliberately written & with purpose to NOT be.. "I fully trust") Further on, the next sentence, shows that I too am beginning to re-consider my trust in no2. Its a change in my thinking, & a shift/ a fairly fast re-appraisal yes.. but its not me saying I trust him & in the next sentence I do not. No. It might be the next few days after innitially saying I trust him, but again this is --not-- a contradiction. A contradiction is within an immediate timeframe, within a sentence or one following another as you suggest. It is neither an elaboration too. This is not what I have said Jamie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamiehamy Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Just now, zoothorn said: No, "as much as I trust my builder" implies that my full trust in him is beginning to be of question ("as much as I".. is deliberately written & with purpose to NOT be.. "I fully trust") Further on, the next sentence, shows that I too am beginning to re-consider my trust in no2. Its a change in my thinking, & a shift/ a fairly fast re-appraisal yes.. but its not me saying I trust him & in the next sentence I do not. No. It might be the next few days after innitially saying I trust him, but again this is --not-- a contradiction. A contradiction is within an immediate timeframe, within a sentence or one following another as you suggest. It is neither an elaboration too. This is not what I have said Jamie. Okay - as I say, it's only my view for consideration. I'm trying to find some stuff I drew for my floor build up - we built on our own but I did some drawings to make sure I had it right - shows the full build up from beams, insulation, screed etc. If I can I'll post, it should be helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 17, 2019 Author Share Posted October 17, 2019 Anyway looking forward, the only avenue I can explore is my BCO (who is approachable, level-headed & rather bullied about a bit by no2 on a job to job basis it seems to me). He actually innitially advised me to go the 2-story design, when I was in a pickle 2 years ago, & came round to help me out on a courtesy call. He's the only avenue I can take re. direct 1-to-1 advice. The other avenue I have to explore is living/ going with what I have -IF- its assumed that 1) my FFL is indeed as it is, & 2) builder1 will not shift one iota or accept the mistake that's been made by builder2 (as he should), because the welsh obdurate shut-up-shop will land bigtime, & the most pressing concern is the ersion of my main house under-foundations. THIS is extremely concerning. If I have to go with it as it is, I need to reconfigure many details/ dimensions/ heights/ levels.. before.. builder 1 gets his TFrame Co to build 2 rooms one at 2000m , other at 2300. Because if tgis happens, the whole extention will be 350mm below the original house eaves its meant to tuck up into. This would be an utter disaster for me. This is priority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennentslager Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Not being funny but maybe you don’t know what’s planned to come next and you are over thinking and getting in a panic heres a back of an envelope sketch that shows one possibility of how it could work i don’t think the trench you see will remain like this, it will all be back filled 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyscotland Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 15 minutes ago, zoothorn said: Can someone tell me what usually happens on a typical groundwork ground floor for an extention. Just a standard build. I get the 2x 9" block perimeter ontop of the moat of founds. This I understand. Its between this work & the FFL.. can someone please tell me the typical layers to expect. One of the layers is 100mm polystyrene. This I understand (but where its to be found I do not). It completely depends. There are lots of different "standard builds". The insulation can be below or above the slab. If it is above the slab, it's not always considered part of the groundworks and it's not uncommon to build the shell first, get a roof on, then do insulation and screed later rather than get it all wet and ruined. Again, you are asking us to guess what might be happening, and forming your own definite opinions and midnight certainties based on "clues" like one trade apparently being finished on site, but it is entirely possible you are misinterpreting all of this. And no amount of us telling you the variety of things it might be is, at this stage, going to help you establish what it actually is. Draw a line on the wall for the FFL you want, then talk to your builder (and from a point of "I'm confused, have I misunderstood?" not "your groundworks guy is obviously a fkn idiot and got this totally wrong, how are you going to fix it"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 47 minutes ago, zoothorn said: [...] Good Q re. my seeming reliance on BH posts: no, this is due only to my being single/ no family to help, or anyone I know in the whole country well: I am very much alone (& that's good! tho it has its limiting factors of course). [...] The words that jump to me are ' ... I am very much alone ...' and your positive take on that. That positivity can be a useful start to building a wider friendship group. The process of developing that local friendship group can be a task when you act on @jamiehamy 's suggestion 27 minutes ago, jamiehamy said: I[...] 2 - You should step back entirely from this build after addressing the above and leave them to get on with it - you've said they are the best out there - so leave them to it. [...] Building something when you - like me - are working on the edge of your comfort zone is deeply uncomfortable. I - like you - get frantically mad with some of the stupidity which surrounds me. It is astonishingly rare to find someone who can - on their own - take this amount of pressure. Look to your immediate support group. Build it too. Enjoy it. Nurture it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 17, 2019 Author Share Posted October 17, 2019 8 minutes ago, jamiehamy said: Okay - as I say, it's only my view for consideration. I'm trying to find some stuff I drew for my floor build up - we built on our own but I did some drawings to make sure I had it right - shows the full build up from beams, insulation, screed etc. If I can I'll post, it should be helpful. Thank you Jamie, but Full Plans are A) not what I did/ was expected to do/ or asked by builder1 to do, B) I had a set given to me by builder1 to go by anyway I still have them & I went by them too, to draw up my condensed/ simplified 'Build Notice' he asked for, C) its too late now. On these Full Plans, the existing floor levels within the main house are designated -only- by broken lines, without even labels saying "existing floor level" so the assumption was to me (& never questioned by builder1 or said 'what's that line?' in fact to the contrary I asked him if he understood the broken lines to be clear indication of existing floor levels? "yes") that broken lines indicate existing floor levels. I remain of the opinion, in this build & from the very plans HE gave me to then work from.. this to be simply the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 17, 2019 Author Share Posted October 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, AnonymousBosch said: The words that jump to me are ' ... I am very much alone ...' and your positive take on that. That positivity can be a useful start to building a wider friendship group. The process of developing that local friendship group can be a task when you act on @jamiehamy 's suggestion Building something when you - like me - are working on the edge of your comfort zone is deeply uncomfortable. I - like you - get frantically mad with some of the stupidity which surrounds me. It is astonishingly rare to find someone who can - on their own - take this amount of pressure. Look to your immediate support group. Build it too. Enjoy it. Nurture it. Cheers ABosch.. wise words. I have tho been put off making friends here due to the nasty 'welcome' I've encountered from entrenched-minded locals. But saying that my buddie couple I mentioned are a help, so I'm not entirely alone, tho he was the one who thought -& maybe he's right who klnows what's going on this surface, if anything- that the insulation/ scree/ is all to be added TO the top of the 2x9" block level & all will be tickety boo bar a few inches: the immediate response on here to this suggestion was (& I share it fwiw) was '"oh he' hasn't a clue whoever he is".. so I don't know. Immediate support group.. I'm sorry to say, but you guys are it! far far better than not it goes without saying. Thanks alot-zoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 @zoothorn, have you read @Russell griffiths post? Re-posted (reformatted) here [...] [...] mark on the wall finished floor height, not a dot or a mark on the render, a [...] straight line. get builder on site and ask him how he [...] will get your floor up to [the marked] height Outcome 1. builder agrees to get floor to [the marked] height at his cost, [...] Outcome 2. He tells you it’s your fault and he won’t do anything, [and then] pay him for his time so far [...], get another builder. [...] and then follow @jamiehamy's advice above. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfb Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Zoothorn - i have tried to read this whole thread but it is hard to see the whole picture. I'll only ask this. Have you spray painted the FFL you want on the existing building yet? If not is that because you aren't sure where the FFL level is because of how the foundations have gone? Because in my mind that is a bit of very useful advice that has been offered on this thread repeatedly but at no time have I seen you come back and say you have done it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamiehamy Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 15 minutes ago, zoothorn said: Thank you Jamie, but Full Plans are A) not what I did/ was expected to do/ or asked by builder1 to do, B) I had a set given to me by builder1 to go by anyway I still have them & I went by them too, to draw up my condensed/ simplified 'Build Notice' he asked for, C) its too late now. On these Full Plans, the existing floor levels within the main house are designated -only- by broken lines, without even labels saying "existing floor level" so the assumption was to me (& never questioned by builder1 or said 'what's that line?' in fact to the contrary I asked him if he understood the broken lines to be clear indication of existing floor levels? "yes") that broken lines indicate existing floor levels. I remain of the opinion, in this build & from the very plans HE gave me to then work from.. this to be simply the case. The sooner you augment the drawing and provide a copy to the builder, the better. The basic nature of the drawing genuinely is causing more issues here than it creates - and will continue to do so. What's happened in the past is irrelevant - the drawing serves no-one. To get over the immediate hurdle, augment your drawing - and provide it to the builder - if nothing else he'll say 'yes, that's what we're doing'. If not, he needs to alter to get the desired FFL. I don't want to dwell on it - but you MUST have this conversation with him. It's not optional. Everyone, not least you will feel better once the air is cleared on this. Moving forward further, I stand by my comment - leave him to it, or get properly stuck in and be constructive in working with the builder. And if the latter but he won't accept it, then sack him. There are many other details you'll soon come up against, many are evident when I look at this drawing in more detail. I'm puzzled by the 2000 ceiling - but that's your choice - however the drop down 350mm will need to be a good metre before the extension ffl of you'll bebumping your head - hence comment on whether this is stepped or a ramp down (sorry if I've missed) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 6 minutes ago, zoothorn said: [...] I have tho been put off making friends here due to the nasty 'welcome' I've encountered from entrenched-minded locals. [...] Immediate support group.. I'm sorry to say, but you guys are it! far far better than not it goes without saying. Thanks alot-zoot. Imagine going to school at 5 years old in the UK speaking German only. I learned to fight hard very quickly. Entrenched-Minded locals exist in every country I have visited and worked. As I moved and worked round Europe, at first I found it really difficult. But then realised that I needed to give - be open - be generous with that difference. Relax with that difference. Shrug, grin, share a joke, but don't allow people to take the piddle - beyond the local average. I mean it's really hard not to take the piss out of @JSHarris, even harder not to take it out of @Declan52 and others. Judging how far to take the piss out of them is a learned art. And maybe it's some of those really subtle cues when talking to real people that you might have missed now and again. You - like me- might interpret some stuff a little too literally. Take stuff a bit too seriously - need exactitude . Because it's comforting. I've said it before @jamiehamy's advice above seems to me to be a good starting point. It'll take courage, I know. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 29 minutes ago, zoothorn said: Plans are A) not what I did/ was expected to do/ or asked by builder1 to do, B) I had a set given to me by builder1 to go by anyway I still have them & I went by them too, to draw up my condensed/ simplified 'Build Notice' he asked for, C) its too late now. @zoothorn stop mixing terms up. You are confusing a full plane building control application and a building notice application. What we are saying is, irrespective of the method of building control, there needs to be at least an agreed set of full plans for the build as otherwise you don’t know what is correct. Assuming the builder is using a timber frame company, they must have a set of plans they have drawn to make your shell. Ask for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 17, 2019 Author Share Posted October 17, 2019 8 minutes ago, PeterW said: @zoothorn stop mixing terms up. You are confusing a full plane building control application and a building notice application. What we are saying is, irrespective of the method of building control, there needs to be at least an agreed set of full plans for the build as otherwise you don’t know what is correct. Assuming the builder is using a timber frame company, they must have a set of plans they have drawn to make your shell. Ask for them. I'm not sure about mixing up terms. I haven't mention the word application in the thread. My applications were many steps past. We have an agreed set of plans, so, I do know what is correct. I mean you are now suggesting I haven't given any plans. IO have. I posted them up here twice. The ground level of the lower room.. is so clear I cannot poosiibly understand any argument to say its not. I just can't. I t doesn't make any logical sense, & keeping reading it is bewildering. Room 1 height = 2000mm. Its on there in bold, a line up/down designating it. This -IS- clear. Its not ambiguos in any way at all. Room 2 height = 2300mm. Its on there in bold, a line up/down designating it. This -IS- clear. Its not ambiguos in any way at all. Dividing floor between = 200mm. Bold, clear, unambiguous. I mean I even went for whole easy figures, 2000, 4500, (4000 L to build) to make it bullet/ idiot- proof as to clarity & simplicity. But you say the very opposite that's is a mess, a fag packet sketch, nothing's clear so my mistake only?! its utterly totally nonsensical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 17, 2019 Author Share Posted October 17, 2019 I just spoke to my nice BCO. Thank goodness he's approachable & friendly (if I had the other chap..). Ok now he doesn't have my plans (no need to), so cannot concur with me about reason for 350mm extra D. Ok understood. What he did say was insulation is yet to be added, & that either chipboard or scree top. So, 100mm of insulation + 25mm of top. It matters not a fart for this conversation what materials used. It only matters that ontop of my 2x 9" blocks.. will be ONLY an inch or two max. So my 350mm extra is a certainty as to its an error. So I need to approach my builder1. Very tricky. He reassured my slightly with regard to my main concern the area of exposed ground below adjacent orig wall footings.. but only slightly. He said ideally it does need covering (I fkn did this last night as best i could/ pretty much all still exposed), but can be 'blocked' up later to sure it up. Even the word 'underpinned' he used which sends shivers down me re. cost. Still it remains that a whole 1ft x 6 yds area of ground bang next to shallow 1830 founds has been unneccessarily excavated due to builder2 error. Fact. I'm furious & this aint the frame of mind to tackle my builder, especially if even I put my concern that a mistake's been made timidly, he'll shut up shop & leave me in the lurch for weeks with this exposed area so vulnerable. So I have a battle. And this is appalling situation to be in at such an early stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 17, 2019 Author Share Posted October 17, 2019 Can anyone advise on how I cover this area up? trouble is the wall face rain will just run down to the exposed area, unless a sealed line is fasten to it/ a sheet fixed & weighted down.. its a fkn disgrace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 17, 2019 Author Share Posted October 17, 2019 @PeterW did you mention the trench area (600mm wide around prob 2 tons min) 'its ok it can be backfilled' later.. if so, with what & from where?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redtop Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 please send us a photo of the wall painted with a FFL line. Then if its higher than the builder expected because they added up wrong a simple extra block course and some thicker insulation will easily make up the difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 36 minutes ago, zoothorn said: Can anyone advise on how I cover this area up? [...] Cheap sheet DPM. £40 a roll from your local Builders' Merchant. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 17, 2019 Author Share Posted October 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, redtop said: please send us a photo of the wall painted with a FFL line. Then if its higher than the builder expected because they added up wrong a simple extra block course and some thicker insulation will easily make up the difference That's perfectlu reasonable as to a suggestion, but it doesn't address any of the main problems. The internal H now is irrelevant in terms of a problem. The exposed old area, the trench dug around, the height of the top of the 2x 9" block as it is relative to adjacent ground all -cannot- be remedied by this. Only if another block course + concrete pour to remedy the situation, could some of these be addressed. My builder will no way on earth do this by 1st agreeing that its an error (bc he's decades of experience knowing how to play such an argument, knowing full well already that a mistake has been made so expecting the conversation/ primed rready with ab or c excuse, playing it that no not them but rather IM fully responsible.. just like some on here seem unfathomably to think). Its an asbsolute disgrace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoothorn Posted October 17, 2019 Author Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 minute ago, AnonymousBosch said: Cheap sheet DPM. £40 a roll from your local Builders' Merchant. Ok ABosch.. but how on earth do I attatch it to a contoured stone wall?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 37 minutes ago, zoothorn said: [...] trouble is the wall face rain will just run down to the exposed area, unless a sealed line is fasten to it/ a sheet fixed & weighted down.. its a fkn disgrace. If you are making comments like that @zoothorn, then honestly, you just have to walk away from the build for a while. A day or two should do it. Give yourself a rest. Right now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Just now, zoothorn said: Ok ABosch.. but how on earth do I attatch it to a contoured stone wall?? If you have to ask for support about issues like that, walk away from the build. Right now. Give yourself a long weekend away from the build. Right now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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