SAP calculation STROMA alternatives on MAC OS

[Patrick]

Read the very usefull hint from @JSHarris to use STROMA software to do the SAP calculations for the Building Regs myself.

Unfortunatley STROMA doesnt run on  IOS and I really cant deal with using ParallelsDesktop,(might need to as a last option, but before that:... )

Anybody has a good option to do the SAP calculations on a Macbook?

 

[Jeremy Harris]

I'll have a dig around, as when I first started looking at this, years ago now, I took the BRE worksheet and translated it to an Excel worksheet.  Not anywhere near as easy to use, and it doesn't do any self-checking for valid values, plus it would have the figures in for a much older version of SAP, but I may still have it somewhere.  Might take me some time to find it though, as it's around ten years old, so probably archived away from about three machines ago.  I'll leave myself a note on my desk to see if I can find it and update it, and get back to you.

 

Alternatively, I think that BRE may still have the basic worksheet somewhere on their site, and you can take that and just convert it to run in whatever spreadsheet package you're most comfortable with.

[Patrick]

Hi @JSHarris
 Thanks for the effort. I couldn't wait and just sat on the misses windows pc(?
 

Got the Stroma free version going. Took me 25min to get th hang of it and another 45 to punch in all the data.

Got all the results out and saved another 200-600£(depending on who you ask).

Works amazing. Just Windows gave me cold showers. How can people work with that?

?

[Ferdinand]

..

Edited September 20, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Jeremy Harris]

4 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

If you can afford an Apple you can afford the extra £££ !!!

 

 

(Was looking at Laptops today. Apple would not even give me a free Black polo neck Jersey and a silver Rubik’s Cube.)

 

 

Point of principle, really, at least as far as I'm concerned.  In my case, it has little to do with whether it's cheaper to get someone else to do something, it has everything to do with the view that was embedded into me when I was a small boy: "Never pay anyone to do something that you can learn to do yourself"

 

One of the greatest failings in our society is that we are gradually losing the confidence to do things that we are perfectly capable of doing, with a little bit of effort and application.  Self-build is a perfect opportunity for those that wish, to spend some time learning and perfecting new skills.  There isn't much in life so rewarding as looking back at something and knowing that it was your own efforts that made it happen.  There's nowhere near the same sense of achievement from just paying someone else to do something.

[Patrick]

Couldn't agree more. Although I must admit, I am tight as well.  But in my (young) age, there are a lot of advantages in learning all the bits involved myself, not just money wise. You never know when you need it later In life.

For the rest of you here on Buildhub it might be different, as you more running out of time than having to worry about later in (after) life ??

[LA3222]

I may be misremembering but iirc I am sure I read somewhere on this thread that a member who had done the design SAP their self was having dramas finding a professional to do/lodge the as built SAP as they weren't willing to do that without having done the first bit - I'm sure it was one of the long time members who had this issue???

 

I have it in my head that there is no point doing the design SAP yourself however easy due to the later problem this creates.

 

In the grand scheme of things SAP reports aren't particularly expensive regardless of how we all feel about whether they are worth the paper they are written on.

[Jeremy Harris]

We had no problem doing this.  I used the free version of the Stroma FSAP software to check the design and produce the design stage assessment, and I just updated this to reflect the as-built changes and emailed the file to an assessor who checked my work, produced the as-built assessment, lodged it on the database etc.  The fee for the as-built only work was modest, about £100 plus VAT.

 

There's no requirement for an assessor to do the design stage assessment, I get the feeling from chatting to BC that it's primarily a sensible check done at the start to be confident that the design meets or exceeds the requirements, so really an assurance tool (albeit a very important one).  Nothing happens to the design stage assessment, it doesn't get filed or lodged on a database anywhere, as fas as I'm aware.  It's only the as-built assessment that has to be done by a registered assessor and lodged on the database as a record of the performance of the house when it was completed.

 

The big advantage of doing the design stage assessment yourself is that you get to learn a fair bit about how SAP works,  what makes a significant difference to the outcome, and what doesn't have much impact.  That makes it a really worthwhile exercise, as it's usually relatively painless to change a few things at the design stage, whereas that may not be the case later on in the build.

[Alex C]

I did my own design SAP but my assessor refused to use my model for the final SAP as he had no idea if it had been done properly and was not willing to sign off someones elses work. He only charged £180 which seemed reasonable. For me creating the SAP model was really worthwhile as I could play with the variables and it showed me what changes would make the biggest impact. I was needing to score over 100 for my mortgage application.

[Russell griffiths]

10 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

..

Not fast enough. ?

[Cpd]

10 hours ago, JSHarris said:

Never pay anyone to do something that you can learn to do yourself"

 

I would be happy to pay people to do work if I could afford it !  I know that without my volunteers I would be at least 2 years behind from where I am now. I understand the principle and agree  that as a society we are becoming pretty pathetic...... but there are just so many jobs and only so much time......  

[LA3222]

1 hour ago, JSHarris said:

We had no problem doing this. 

I know you had no problem doing this Jeremy, I have read numerous threads where you have talked about it.

 

It's all well and good telling people how you did things and how it all worked for you but there is then the danger you are giving them a bum steer and putting them onto the path to future problems.

 

I did a Google search and found the thread but don't know how to link it - it was @TerryE who had the problems getting the final bit done after doing the initial bit himself.

 

Quote from the thread I refer to:

 

"  So the purpose of this topic is:

1. To advise other self builders to avoid the approach that I took: saving a few £100s is really not worth the hassle: commission a professional firm to do both. "

 

I think you should maybe have a bit more caution and caveat the advice you give Jeremy, as due to the fact you are clearly very competent, people may just take it as gospel and assume what worked for you (a few years ago now too) will also work for them.

Edited September 21, 2019 by LA3222
To add quote in and clarify they are not my words!

[Patrick]

32 minutes ago, LA3222 said:

 

 

  So the purpose of this topic is:

1. To advise other self builders to avoid the approach that I took: saving a few £100s is really not worth the hassle: commission a professional firm to do both. 

 

I think everyone should be treated as adults here, so giving advise doesn't eliminate using ones own brain (does this advise apply to me).

The PURPOSE of THIS THREAD was

 

To find alternative programmes for SAP calculation for anyone interested to do it him/herself.

 

Your advise of hiring professionals instead of saving "a few 100£" applies to pretty much everything in life.

do you get your brake pads changed at the garage or do you do it yourself.

Do you buy package holiday or do you organise every step yourself......

 

It is a matter of opinion when it s worth it to hire professionals and when you should (can get away with) do it yourself.

 

I'm on Jeremy's side with doing as much as possible myself.

 

You think it is better to have professionals doing jobs for you.

 

None of these opinions are "the truth", so being careful voicing an opinion seems a silly advice.

 

 

[LA3222]

7 minutes ago, Patrick said:

I think everyone should be treated as adults here, so giving advise doesn't eliminate using ones own brain (does this advise apply to me).

The PURPOSE of THIS THREAD was

 

To find alternative programmes for SAP calculation for anyone interested to do it him/herself.

 

Your advise of hiring professionals instead of saving "a few 100£" applies to pretty much everything in life.

do you get your brake pads changed at the garage or do you do it yourself.

Do you buy package holiday or do you organise every step yourself......

 

It is a matter of opinion when it s worth it to hire professionals and when you should (can get away with) do it yourself.

 

I'm on Jeremy's side with doing as much as possible myself.

 

You think it is better to have professionals doing jobs for you.

 

None of these opinions are "the truth", so being careful voicing an opinion seems a silly advice.

 

 

Regardless of the 'purpose' of the thread @Patrick It, like many many other threads on here has evolved from the original content and for future readers my comments very much apply.  I have read 90% of this forum now and am currently working through Windows - I am reading threads from 2016.  Without a shadow of a doubt people will read this thread 4,5 yrs down the line and take advice from it.  Therefore a balanced view should be presented.

 

Secondly, the quote you ascribe to me is one I ripped from the thread I mention in that comment - it wasn't said by me, rather it was a long standing contributor to this forum who used those words.

[jack]

12 minutes ago, Patrick said:

Your advise of hiring professionals instead of saving "a few 100£" applies to pretty much everything in life.

do you get your brake pads changed at the garage or do you do it yourself.

Do you buy package holiday or do you organise every step yourself......

 

It is a matter of opinion when it s worth it to hire professionals and when you should (can get away with) do it yourself.

 

I'm on Jeremy's side with doing as much as possible myself.

 

You think it is better to have professionals doing jobs for you.

 

None of these opinions are "the truth", so being careful voicing an opinion seems a silly advice.

 

I don't think that's what @LA3222 is saying. The point is just being made that this is a serious topic, and the "you can do it yourself" approach needs some caveats that weren't being expressed by those encouraging a DIY approach.

 

What happens when someone downloads STROMA, makes a couple of apparently minor errors that aren't picked up by building control, and then builds their house? They go to get the as-built SAP done and find no-one will do it cheaply based on their calculations, so actually they haven't saved much - if any - real money. So they pay, and then the errors that they made are discovered. It's too late to fix them now, and since the design SAP wasn't done by a professional, there's no comeback. Potentially thousands of quid in remedial work could well be required for the sake of a couple of hundred quid. And that's for those who value their time at zero - a problem I definitely have (I will regularly spend an hour on the internet trying to save a few quid, when working for the same amount of time would leave me in an order of magnitude better off financially and in terms of stress).

 

I'm all for DIY. I've done a fair bit of it myself (I've even changed brake pads). But I know where my limitations lie, and saving at most a couple of hundred quid at this stage seems like something you'd want to be very certain about before taking it on. Note that I'm not saying "don't do it".

 

11 hours ago, JSHarris said:

Point of principle, really, at least as far as I'm concerned.  In my case, it has little to do with whether it's cheaper to get someone else to do something, it has everything to do with the view that was embedded into me when I was a small boy: "Never pay anyone to do something that you can learn to do yourself".

 

I have exactly the same approach, and it's the bane of my bloody existence! I'm all for doing things yourself, but I also believe that there's a balance to be drawn, especially once you weigh up cost versus risk versus delay versus quality versus stress versus the general principle that doing things yourself can be hugely rewarding.

 

[LA3222]

25 minutes ago, Patrick said:

I'm on Jeremy's side with doing as much as possible myself.

Whether intended or not, this comment bothers me.  I am too am a self builder - emphasis being on the word self.  If I can do something myself then I will, however I will only fight the battles worth fighting.

[Bitpipe]

Early on in our build process I was paying for a lot of necessary professional services (architect, ground investigations, SE, BCO etc..)  and paid a potential PM £1800 to produce a QS driven cost model for ICF vs Timber frame plus a PHPP analysis.

 

This was a tipping point for me as while his models were useful, I'm not sure they were as great value and I began to realise that there were some things I could do myself and save a few ££ plus get more involved in the build process vs just be a client all the time. Final straw was architect quoting £15k for planning conditions discharge and detailed drawings for BCO - I'd already got a set of drawings from MBC and the SE who did my basement and when the BCO said they were good enough, I decided to do the rest of my submission myself..

 

I remember slogging through Jeremy's SAP model (changing to match my build) + Stroma on a PC to produce a working SAP model that both Ecology and by BCO accepted as a design model. Also helped me model the impact of window brands, wall designs etc. Really helped my fundamental understanding of what decisions made a difference and was a first step to taking ownership of the build vs being a client handing out money to all and sundry.

 

However when it came to getting a proper registered SAP initially for PV and then  BCO sign off, I used a consultant but they did not charge much tbh.

 

In a similar vein, we chose not to use a PM or main contractor and did the MVHR install ourselves but that's where I drew the line practically.

 

Agree with @Patrick always a personal decision on how much to rely on professionals and its a cost / time / competence decision. 

[Cpd]

3 minutes ago, LA3222 said:

If I can do something myself then I will, however I will only fight the battles worth fighting.

We are all so very different and we all have a very different skill bases, the battles you can win are most likely the ones I will loose ! 

[joe90]

12 hours ago, JSHarris said:

Point of principle, really, at least as far as I'm concerned.  In my case, it has little to do with whether it's cheaper to get someone else to do something, it has everything to do with the view that was embedded into me when I was a small boy: "Never pay anyone to do something that you can learn to do yourself"

 

I agree with the above but with the caveat that I know what I am bad at (computers , software etc) so I pay someone to do that. As an example I am paying someone to do my VAT return as I know HMRC will fine me if I make a mistake and I can’t afford to loose my VAT return. I can lay bricks, but if I built my house myself I won’t live long enough to live in it. It’s all a balance but I do love learning something new.

[Patrick]

@LA3222
 Didn't mean to offend you. I appreciate that there are two views on pretty much everything. All I meant to say is that there is not necessarily one that is right, and like many others said on here, it depends on the situation and each individual adult to evaluate when it's worth it to take the DIY approach. What might be right for me, might be completely wrong for others.

I just have the opinion that a lot of the admin/desctop/computer/design work is easy to learn and that many doing this professionally are massively overpaid as the skills involved in their jobs (I'm talking specific the skills for smaller residential buildings, not that people haven't got vastly more knowledge than me in other topics) are easy to aquire.

That's why I'm pushing for doing everything myself /yourself /oneself.

 

But that's just my OPINION. might not work for the next man/woman and in other parts of the more hands on side of things I learned a bit of a lesson (see the Tree cutting exercise) in regards to the value of professionals.

 

 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

2 hours ago, LA3222 said:

I know you had no problem doing this Jeremy, I have read numerous threads where you have talked about it.

 

It's all well and good telling people how you did things and how it all worked for you but there is then the danger you are giving them a bum steer and putting them onto the path to future problems.

 

I did a Google search and found the thread but don't know how to link it - it was @TerryE who had the problems getting the final bit done after doing the initial bit himself.

 

Quote from the thread I refer to:

 

"  So the purpose of this topic is:

1. To advise other self builders to avoid the approach that I took: saving a few £100s is really not worth the hassle: commission a professional firm to do both. "

 

I think you should maybe have a bit more caution and caveat the advice you give Jeremy, as due to the fact you are clearly very competent, people may just take it as gospel and assume what worked for you (a few years ago now too) will also work for them.

 

 

With respect, I'm an ordinary person, entirely self-taught when it comes to building-related stuff, so I feel perfectly entitled to give my honest opinion as to what can be done by someone who wishes to take the time to research and learn.  I fully understand that some may not want to do this, and may prefer to just stay in the dark, consider this stuff to be something beyond them, and pay to have it done for them.  That's fine, that's their choice, but if we don't at least make it clear that there are ways to do stuff yourself, rather than pay someone to do it for you, then what use is a self-build forum?  We may as well just become a review site, sharing recommendations for professionals to hire.

 

In the case of a SAP assessment, all of the data the assessor uses comes from the self-builder anyway.  If you hire an assessor they will not ever visit the house to see what was used in its construction, they will take your word for everything.  I cannot see the difference between sending a set of drawings, together with fabric build up schedules, an air test report, specs for the MVHR, hot water system, heating system, controls, glazing etc to an assessor and putting that same data into an application yourself as a backstop check that the design meets your own expectations.

 

I refuse point blank to stop suggesting ways where people can do relatively straight forward jobs themselves.  I believe that the more people know and understand about their projects the better equipped they will be to make sound judgements, and if some disagree with that ethos then they are free to just ignore it, aren't they?

 

By the same token, if someone just wants to pay professionals to do the whole of their build, then that's fine.  There are just as many pitfalls from taking that approach though, as some here will probably attest ( @lizzie springs to mind with the problems she experienced with using a professional project manager, professional (and expensive) window supplier, professional (and expensive) MVHR installation, to name just a few).

[Dreadnaught]

2 hours ago, LA3222 said:

I think you should maybe have a bit more caution and caveat the advice you give Jeremy

 

It is an interesting point to raise. My personal view is that the caveats usually emerge from other contributors in a thread on this forum. The diversity of viewpoints, and the general willingness to let diverse opinions stand, is one of the strengths of BH.  Moreover few people would be led by any single individual, even someone as accomplished as Jeremy. 

 

Moreover, supporting @Bitpipe's point, even giving-a-go to something complicated like a SAP calculation, even if that effort is then aborted, would, in my opinion, lead to some valuable learning. And, in my view as a forthcoming first-time self builder myself, the most valuable commodity is learning.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Dreadnaught
…to remove the word "unchallenged" with respect to viewpoints on BH. Viewpoints are challenged, and that is for the good.

[LA3222]

I have played with the stroma software myself and it is not difficult.

 

@JSHarris I know most things are easy to do so if you can then why not have a go.  Before embarking on a self build, the most had I done is hang a shelf - not because I wasn't competent to do anything else but because I had no need to.

 

Through this forum I have learnt a lot and now I tend to tackle the majority of my foundations myself and fit the windows etc myself.

 

I am simply making the point that you are telling people yes, stroma is  easy etc. but failing to highlight any potential pitfalls such as Terry found.  I would have thought you would have mentionned that tidbit - particulary when you consider that Terry asked you to recommend someone that would do it for him to solve the issue.

 

I am not commenting on this anymore - trying to argue with you Jeremy is a pointless exercise.  Once you are on a track you won't deviate and always have to have the last word, I will stick to reading - I have better ways to spend my time than poi ting out that another well established member on this forum has a counterview to your own that people should perhaps be aware of. 

[Jeremy Harris]

Just now, LA3222 said:

I have played with the stroma software myself and it is not difficult.

 

@JSHarris I know most things are easy to do so if you can then why not have a go.  Before embarking on a self build, the most had I done is hang a shelf - not because I wasn't competent to do anything else but because I had no need to.

 

Through this forum I have learnt a lot and now I tend to tackle the majority of my foundations myself and fit the windows etc myself.

 

I am simply making the point that you are telling people yes, stroma is  easy etc. but failing to highlight any potential pitfalls such as Terry found.  I would have thought you would have mentionned that tidbit - particulary when you consider that Terry asked you to recommend someone that would do it for him to solve the issue.

 

I am not commenting on this anymore - trying to argue with you Jeremy is a pointless exercise.  Once you are on a track you won't deviate and always have to have the last word, I will stick to reading - I have better ways to spend my time than poi ting out that another well established member on this forum has a counterview to your own that people should perhaps be aware of. 

 

 

I'm unaware of the problem Terry had with the Stroma software, TBH.  If I had known of it I'd have highlighted it as a potential gotcha with that software package.  Out of interest, what was the glitch he found with it?

 

We're all entitled to our view, and to express that view, be challenged on it, and defend it.  Why should I, or anyone else, change our view just because someone disagrees with it?

 

Readers and contributors to this forum are free to take heed of, or ignore, anything here.  Not only do I have no control over that process, I most definitely would not wish to.  All I will ever do here is put forward ways that people can do things, or research how to do them.  If they choose to do the same, then that's their decision.  If they choose to ignore it and do something else then that's also their decision.  It's just about informed choice, and providing as wide a range of information as possible, from as many contributors as possible, so that people can choose which path they wish to take.

[LA3222]

10 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

 

I'm unaware of the problem Terry had with the Stroma software, TBH.  If I had known of it I'd have highlighted it as a potential gotcha with that software package.  Out of interest, what was the glitch he found with it?

Not aware - well you answered him.  You may have forgotten, I get that.  All I intended with my original comment is to highlight that doing it yourself may present issues later, as already highlighted by Terry and that perhaps you should be a bit more circumspect in the advice you give:

 

3 hours ago, JSHarris said:

There's no requirement for an assessor to do the design stage assessment

Strong advice which fails to consider potential issues later on.

 

3 hours ago, JSHarris said:

I just updated this to reflect the as-built changes and emailed the file to an assessor who checked my work, produced the as-built assessment, lodged it on the database etc. 

That simple Jeremy ?  I have read all the SAP/EPC threads (admittedly a while ago now) and iirc you didn't find it straight forward to get a SAP assessor to take your work at face value and lodge it on your behalf.

 

Please don't paint it as simple when it is clearly not.  How many SAP assessors out there are going to be willing to accept a self builders workings and officially lodge it when their name is on the ticket?

 

Not many I dare say.

 

You sucked me in one more time - I'm done, I've got some trees to chop up and some grass to sow, laters ?