Advice please: which of these courses should I do?

[ToughButterCup]

I am trying to decide which of  welding course I should take; TIG, MIG or MMA  ?  

Lancaster and Morecambe College offer evening courses starting this September (£625).

Can't wait.  

 

I'd just like to be able to weld bits back on to my Land Rover, or make fairly simple things  like a basic tool to twist thin steel bar. Really simple stuff: nothing like  @Onoff-level refined bits of kit .

 

I have a Stick Welder which can be used as a gas welder..... not used it much - kind of busy recently.

 

[scottishjohn]

being fairly fluent in both tig +mig  

the question is do you need to weld alluminium or s/s ?

 if so then tig s only really way  and that is only good if you are working with NEW  metal -not rusty things

 

mig is generally far handier +easier  for general purpose welding.

stick welding is  not as flexible or easy  

If you are contemplating welding up your land rover chassis --and you are keeping it --then don,t

just buy a galvanised complete chassis unit  and swop everything over -do it once do it right

for a mechanic who has done one before its about 20-30 hrs - but very simple work with new chassis on oil blocks  next to old vehicle on blocks --unbolt the bodywork --leave to one side then just swop everything over 

I,ve been here before repairing out riggers , patching up chassis legs then its a complete back end section --you just keep chasing it around and its still a rust bucket

 

get a new chassis unit --fit +forget 

 

[scottishjohn]

33 minutes ago, AnonymousBosch said:

MMA

or stick welding is very difficult  on thin sections like car body work --so is never used for anything but heavy gauge welding ,like bridges --over 8mm usually 

you can do a single pass 6mm weld or more with a mig machine

TIG you can weld fag paper thickness ,,when you get good at it --much slower than mig +stick 

years ago I bought a miller syncrho wave 375 amp tig unit --to make alloy inlet manifolds where the flange was 12mm and could do it in one pass  and can also with dif torch weld 0.5mm alloy --on a good day --

also had a alloy mig machine to make alloy car transporter bodies --but alloy mig is not very flexible and must be used with a push +pull wire feed or a spool on gun.

 

 

modern invertor units for small sizes are very cheap now 

most of the jobs people bring me for alloy welding are wanting miracles --alloy sumps  or very thin alloy casings  in many pieces - not a problem if they want to make a jig to bolt  all the bits in place while i weld  and cool them 

 or an alloy cylinder head that corroded to buggery --again not a problem --but after i grind all the oxide out  ,then weld it up and themput on the miller to machine the face back true

 not just a 10mins job --

the thing they don,t understand is that to alloy weld the whole article to be welded must be preheated to over 200c --

 best one i did was head fromn a 1925 rolls royce --,basically cast iron head --+old age and no antifreeze 

not another one on the planet --he tells me --can you fix it --

yes but it was not quick or cheap 

 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2019 by scottishjohn

[Russell griffiths]

Mig. 

If you take that course you may stand a chance of becoming a WELDING GOD. 

[Jeremy Harris]

If you learn the hardest and most technical technique (almost certainly TIG) then you will have no trouble at all with MIG or stick welding.  Stick welding is of fairly limited use, especially for car work, MIG is probably the closest there is to an all round welding technique, and has the advantage of requiring the lowest skill level in order to make serviceable, if a bit ugly, welds.

 

TIG is the most expensive set up, then MIG, then stick welding, so that has some bearing on your choice, perhaps.  Welding underhand with TIG is trickier than welding underhand with MIG, and MIG is probably the most common welding method used in car repairs (might have a fair bit to do with the lower overall skill level needed plus the lower cost of kit, though).

 

TIG works with pretty near any metal, as long as you have a TIG set that offers AC and DC, together with HF start.  With TIG and the skill to use it there isn't much you can't weld.

[Carrerahill]

24 minutes ago, AnonymousBosch said:

I am trying to decide which of  welding course I should take; TIG, MIG or MMA  ?  

Lancaster and Morecambe College offer evening courses starting this September (£625).

Can't wait.  

 

I'd just like to be able to weld bits back on to my Land Rover, or make fairly simple things  like a basic tool to twist thin steel bar. Really simple stuff: nothing like  @Onoff-level refined bits of kit .

 

I have a Stick Welder which can be used as a gas welder..... not used it much - kind of busy recently.

 

MIG I'd say.

 

I have stick and MIG and have been able to do fabrication, keep my Land Rover on the road (needed a chassis in the end though!) and make custom things.

 

TIG is all very well and good but I have never felt the need to do aluminium etc. and the cost of a TIG for ali is expensive as you need an AC TIG welder for the negative half cycle cleans the weld as you go. I MIGed ali and it was very dirty - it worked though (for the aluminium cross-member above the chassis crossmember on my Land Rover's tub as it had split at the brackets - worked OK).  

 

Just type DC TIG into google and up come some 400 quid units, then type AS TIG and the price over doubles for a simple setup. I know a couple of fab shops and got talking to the owners, as soon as I said Ali they always say AC only. So I am glad they did because I actually nearly bought a little cheapo Jazzi or some such name unit, but he said that was steel only. Mind you, TIGed steel looks very neat, but I can produce MIG welds that look really really nice when I take my time and care to prep well.

 

I have a Clarke Turbo Mig, biggest one they do. It's a nice bit of kit. Works very well and is my second MIG - first one got me so far and then I outgrew it so if you think this will be a serious enough hobby and skill to add to your collection go better first.

 

For gas look into the small hobby bottles, you will go through the little canisters in one good welding session. You can use BOC too but they can have high metal prices and or rental. Also, if you know your local owner well, get them to get you pub CO2 - however, argon mix does give a nicer weld. 

[Carrerahill]

50 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

just buy a galvanised complete chassis unit  and swop everything over -do it once do it right

for a mechanic who has done one before its about 20-30 hrs - but very simple work with new chassis on oil blocks  next to old vehicle on blocks --unbolt the bodywork --leave to one side then just swop everything over 

 

 

I agree with the galv chassis route.

 

I can do a Landy chassis in a weekend now with a Teleloader or my 2 post and a simple body jig (RHS with some plates welded on!). If doing the bulkhead too it's worth stripping it.

[joe90]

I do stick welding on heavier gauge stuff and would like to do bodywork (mig) but can’t justify the cost for this little amount of work I would do. I did buy a cheap gas less mig once but it was very difficult to get a decent weld so sold it on. I have been told gas less migs are not as good as gas ones.

[scottishjohn]

31 minutes ago, joe90 said:

I do stick welding on heavier gauge stuff and would like to do bodywork (mig) but can’t justify the cost for this little amount of work I would do. I did buy a cheap gas less mig once but it was very difficult to get a decent weld so sold it on. I have been told gas less migs are not as good as gas ones.

gas less mig are total crap -IMHO

you need  shielding gas and you need to clean at least 25mm either side of weld on both sides of each piece if possible if you want a first class result -

any undeseal or paint or oil --anything that is too close will burn and give off gases  which will effect the weld -

-thats the whole point of using co2 /argon as the shielding gas 

 yes you can weld if its not perfectly clean  with mig --but its not as good and spits  and pollutes the ceramic shield 

TIG is even fussier than mig 

 with a TIG you can weld or braze any type of metal together,gold ,copper ,silver ,lead ,alluminium  anything  -but it is very slow compared to mig ,up to 3mm in alloy plate you don,t really need a filler rod just melt it together

its gas welding with electric really

Edited July 12, 2019 by scottishjohn

[Onoff]

@AnonymousBosch...did I not send you that idiot's guide to welding bible as a PDF? Or did I offer but you didn't come back to me?

 

PM me an email address if you want it. Well worth a read. It will give you a great head start.

 

Edit: You have pm, bedtime reading!

Edited July 12, 2019 by Onoff

[Ferdinand]

I make that you now have a full set of answers. ?

[joe90]

Not wishing to digress this thread but I have always fancied brazing but never got round to it, can you braze with mapp gas? (My gas torch will take mapp gas which I think is hotter.)

[ProDave]

I have a carbon arc torch for the stick welder for brazing. You can also use a propane torch if the job is not too big and you are not in too much of a hurry.

 

I did a welding course during my apprenticeship to learn the different sorts of welding. Oxy acetylene was by FAR the easiest, but probably too expensive for DIY?

[Jeremy Harris]

10 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Not wishing to digress this thread but I have always fancied brazing but never got round to it, can you braze with mapp gas? (My gas torch will take mapp gas which I think is hotter.)

 

You can just about braze with ordinary butane/propane mix, as used in cheap plumbing-type blow torches, but it's right up at the upper end of what one of those will do, especially on anything other than small parts.

 

Silver solder is a great deal easier, as long as the parts are clean, and doesn't need as much heat as brazing.  The downside of silver solder is the cost of the stuff, but for small jobs it's not too bad.

 

A MAPP gas torch will braze pretty easily, but you're then swapping the high cost of silver solder for the high cost of gas.

[joe90]

9 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I have a carbon arc torch for the stick welder for brazing.

 

Do you mean like this https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Brazing-torch-for-arc-welder/123830105396?_trkparms=aid%3D444000%26algo%3DSOI.DEFAULT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140620080710%26meid%3D51b0fd4a5c6a42528591c07f9fa55acf%26pid%3D100013%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D123811007849%26itm%3D123830105396%26pg%3D2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100013.m1986

 

might give it a punt. (Probably should go on a course and learn properly)

[ProDave]

1 minute ago, joe90 said:

 

Do you mean like this https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Brazing-torch-for-arc-welder/123830105396?_trkparms=aid%3D444000%26algo%3DSOI.DEFAULT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140620080710%26meid%3D51b0fd4a5c6a42528591c07f9fa55acf%26pid%3D100013%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D123811007849%26itm%3D123830105396%26pg%3D2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100013.m1986

 

might give it a punt. (Probably should go on a course and learn properly)

Yes that looks identical to what I have.

[joe90]

59 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Yes that looks identical to what I have.

 

Are you pleased with yours?, does it work well?

[ProDave]

3 minutes ago, joe90 said:

 

Are you pleased with yours?, does it work well?

I haven't used it for donkeys years, but it did what it was supposed to last time I tried it.

[scottishjohn]

what would you want to braze?

last thing I  coated used brazing rods for was diesel injection pipes that got rubbed through on diggers from local quarry --and that was years ago -then i swopped to silver solder rods much easier and neater. and then i got a mig welder about 25+years ago followed shortly by  a big HF tig --never missed using brazing rods 

 

[dpmiller]

I've a TIG set for my DC inverter and it's darned handy for light work.

 

@AnonymousBosch I'd say that if you're asking the question, the answer is- get onto a general course that lets you try the different systems and see which suits you and your applications. I did a night course some years back just like this- gas, stick (MMA), and TIG, as well as brazing.

 

TIG has more in common with gas welding or brazing than stick or MIG and if you can master the delicacy of TIG the rest are easy.

[joe90]

1 hour ago, scottishjohn said:

what would you want to braze?

last thing I  coated used brazing rods for was diesel injection pipes that got rubbed through on diggers from local quarry --and that was years ago -then i swopped to silver solder rods much easier and neater. and then i got a mig welder about 25+years ago followed shortly by  a big HF tig --never missed using brazing rods 

 

 

If I could braze or silver solder using my current gas lamp using mapp gas I would not need to purchase a mig welder which would not be used that much!.

[MikeSharp01]

I did a week long course on all three in 1981 (at South Thames College as was and I guess you can imagine where we went each evening, given that Young's brewery was 25 yards away!) I thought the MiG was most versatile and TiG the hardest to get remotely right but I still have my aluminium TiG project from the course. So although I enjoyed the TiG I would say MiG is a great starting place. I have done very little welding since.

[ToughButterCup]

11 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said:

[...] I have done very little welding since.

 

That factor - I am assuming  I will experience the same  enthusiasm peak and wane curve - gives pause for thought.

Use it or lose it : but, bike-like, I assume that once taught, I'll not forget. And so I'll always have that ''tool" in my tool bag. 

[Russell griffiths]

the problem I find with my mig is gas bottles 

if you use it regularly it’s not a problem, but paying a yearly rental on a bottle you only use twice a year can feel like a waste of money. 

[PeterW]

I’ve got an Argon bottle that I bought then I pay per fill. He certifies the bottles and then swaps it every 5 years or when it’s damaged.