oranjeboom

Okay, so if I go with the UVC option, I have three areas for the UVC and the buffer tank (4 if I include the loft): Locations Cloakroom: u-shaped area: 820x760 (actual room is 820x 2000, but doorway at 760 - but door will open outwards so that will help. Incidentally, this will also has the UFH manifold in there) Hallway cupboard (u-shaped area: 930x640) Electric cupboard: 800x350. Bit small for even a small buffer tank and I don't like the idea of the MCB and cylinders in the same restricted space. Ceiling heights are 2.4 although I could go higher if needed. Sizing So looking at Joule and Telford as example UVC sizing: Telford: 300L 2150mmx660 (slimfast version: 250L: 1800x510, presume they can do a custom one that is larger but longer in height?) Joule: 300L 2000x540 Best UVC location would probably be in hallway cupboard if I can get one that squeezes in. Heat loss will help to heat up the hallway and adjacent rooms/spaces. This will also minimise distance to boiler. Buffer tank is probably best to have in the cloakroom, right next to the manifold. @Nickfromwales Not sure whether my earlier posting made sense to you, but I think I have made up my mind with the UVC option (though I need to chase sunamp on their pricing today still). Any BH group discount plans with Telford on the horizon??? Not a clue which UVC to get, but looks like they will loosen my wallet by a bit. Just found out the plumber I had in mind is not VAT registered so will be slugged for full 20% VAT instead of 5% (VAT notice 708).

Raspberry Pi? Not had the time to get and play with these yet, but they seem to have a very wide range of uses including lighting setups.

Every cloud..... Put your feet up and make most of the weather. May not see the sun again for another month after today! Hope your finger heals quickly! Is it a splint job for 4wks and then another 3wks of healing after that?

Never mind the finger - any damage to the window???? Hope the ARI looked after you!

No, Swansea me! Next time I;m there visiting the MIL in Clydach I'll drop you round a case of delicious Fosters* * or Afghan/Crafy Devil/Cwtch! Okay, ready for the stupid questions: 1) So in the 'summer' months (fingers crossed) I rely pretty much on the PV panels to heat up the UVC, any further goes back to the grid (or a Sunamp if I can afford it)? 2) On those days when summer fails, the boiler kicks in to boost the UVC (rather than the immersion and drawing leccy from the grid)? Yes, I had planned to have the UVC in the cold loft, but it makes sense to place somewhere in the heated envelope. heat loss vs loss of heated space! Will only have an open staircase so can't place anything under there, no matter how impressive I make it look (already had difficulty persuading the wife on an exposed internal brick wall, so I don't think a copper spaghetti display is going to go ahead). Just need to find some dimensions then on the cylinder and buffer tanks and see what cupboards I am going to hide them in. Probably the cheapest item in this plumbing set up, one that I won't be needing your advice on you'll be glad to hear. And then to prance around in them in a nice warm house. Neighbours are going to love that! Dont you eat in the winter? People from Kent are very strange....... Just living off the fat from Xmas and Easter.... Ahhhh shuddup! I was pondering this very thing last night, even asked the boss again "are you sure you want to cook with gas"? as I was hoping that electric cooker she used on holiday was a persuader, alas not. At the moment we probably go through only 6-7 47kg LPG bottles living in the static caravan per year (4 humans, 1 stray cat doesn't tend to shower) so was already wondering how much demand there would be on the boiler in summer for hot water. With a 350L UVC that should do me for a bath in the morning and some showers and then it's heated in the day again for evening demands. If that's accurate (and the sun serves us well over the summer period) I'd only need one LPG bottle in the summer for cooking. I'd love to tell the gas company where to go with their standing charges! Just need to try and work out how much the boiler would be used in the winter if there's minimal output from the PV.

£4k for 18Kw? Reclaimable as in new-build or some other way? thanks in advance for the feedback.

Right, after some more reading I have come back with some more thoughts (and more questions...sorry @Nickfromwales!!). Preference is for a simple setup, only because I am no plumber and have very little faith in the local talent pool to actually fit a system that will work as it should at its best efficiency! With my water/house setup, I forgot to mention that the wife wants to be cooking with gas so we'll have gas with any set up then. I'm not bothered about running 2 baths simultaneously (and not much hindrance IMHO to say they'll have to wait) and I also think that the running of 2 showers simultaneously is unlikely tbh. As long as any recharge requirement does not take 4hrs, but then if whatever cylinder is big enough that should not be an issue I guess? Mains pressure is good and if my tank is circa 300L I shouldn't have any issues with simultaneous shower/bath...I think. As long as the boss can have her morning or evening bath plus showers running before/after. I'm also keen to install a more econmical bath (130l?) rather than a 250l+ swimming pool. On the short cycling front, I'd have to play it careful and include a buffer in the setup. Found this thread from last year about boiler efficiencies - may be of use to others who stumble across my pondering over UVC vs TS. Higher standing losses for a TS (over a UVC), but if the TS is in airing cupboard rather than the loft, that will help the situation in the heating months, but could be a problem in the summer months. So I do still have a question mark around that as I know Jeremy tried to do his best to improve on the crap heat TS loss figures he was achieving (and ultimately jumped onto the sunamp option. Is there a real-life proven TS that actually performs as the published figures state? So as I understand if I go with a TS, I would have to go for a larger size than a UVC or is it vice versa? But with a TS, that would also act as my buffer for my UFH and a UVC would need a buffer also. So again, as I read it, I can either go for a: - smaller TS and get a decent gas boiler to support it to match what is being demanded from it in terms of UFH and a simultaneous DHW demand or - larger TS to dump excess PV into it during the day (especially if I don't go for a Sunamp) And I do like the sound of low losses, so am considering the Sunamp PV (waiting to hear back from them on costs etc). and have some questions here for the plumber: How much would that setup cost? So a SA PV (5Kw) unit is circa £1700 IIRC so is it fair to say 18Kw worth of Sunamp magic is going to cost circa £7k plus the ' good high flow storage combi' cost [insert bargain figure here] will probably leave me with little left over to actually pay for shower and baths units! Very little demand for gas however (only need would be for cooking in the summer). BTW what is the cost of an annual service for a UVC? As low as £50? http://www.cardiffplumbingservices.co.uk/cylinder-servicing/ Presume that's not you Nick? Not sure if I am at all any clearer on my options. Too many darn options these days! I should have been living back in the stone ages("BIG FIRE or smal fire darling"?)

You were up early! Yes, just oversailing cables with 2 poles just outside the boundary (1 in substation next door and the other in the field next door). Have tried to find the wayleave agreement, but of course can't locate it in my 'filing' system here in the static. I do recall it mentioned access to my land for maintenance purposes etc, not that really helps in determining whether its wayleave or easement. I'm pretty sure there was no mention of notice periods in there though. once I locate it I will post a scan. Any update I get from the DNO, I will also post on here for future reference. Thanks!

Thanks @Ferdinand. I've actually been dealing with the wayleave office at the aformentioned DNO. Very amenable and is putting together recommendations for their planning dept - no indication yet how long that takes. i;ll wait to see how this progresses without the involvement of a legal team. As for a "necessary wayleave" I don't think that is going to be possible on the grounds of safety. IIRC the cables are 8m from ground level in the back garden which isn;t that high when you;ve got kids climbing trees (well not that high hopefully). The other big issue is that there is an adjacent industrial yard that also has the cables drooping over there yard which I recall the DNO guy commenting about on his last visit. Were these your timelines that you forced on them or are these 'expected' timelines for this sort of thing?

I think it's all in the ebuild thread, but to save you reading that, a quick summary. I have to admit I thought the powerlines would have been dealt with at the planning approval stage and/or architect / building inspector. It was only when I started looking at scaffolding and measurements that I noted how close we would come. None of the scaffolders who came to quote though gave a sh*t about their proximity. In any case, I notified the DNO, they eventually came out to cloak/sleeve the lines (after various cockups on their side) only to cock-up again and realise when they came on site that they couldn't sleeve the cables because they were 11kv! After I'd sent them pics, ID nos of the substation and poles etc. Totally clueless bunch of ignoramus muppets. And this was 2 weeks before the SIPs arrived. No way could I postpone it all as I could foresee them taking months to take any action (and they'd already used up their meagre budget. DNO is now another foreign owned entity with minimum return ££ to invest in UK) After careful negotiation with the DNO, I proceeded to get the scaffolding up and spent a small fortune on warning signs, tape etc etc. There was no way I wanted any injuries on my site! During this kerfuffle with the ignoramus DNO muppets we agreed that the wayleave agreement was complete crap. So the build went ahead but even during the build the muppet DNO had a panic attack when their contracted tree pruner reported back to them about the scaffolding. He was just doing his job, but it sent alarm bells ringing even though I told some bimbo on the phone that everything had been signed off by the DNO previously. Computer system says no and I had a road full of DNO crews to assess the situation. Luckily I still had the original DNO paperwork and that sent them on their way again. So I didn't want to ruffle their feathers until well after the build was completed externally before I started enquiring about the overhead cables again.

Thanks @Onoff - yes, I went over that meticulously when I had my first run in with them. I even noted that one of the poles was slightly angled - to no avail. I may have a case with the substation which is housed in a small victorian brick structure - part of the roof has missing tiles and the brickwork on the gable end is pretty buggered and all of the guttering is long gone. I've often seen squirrels go in there....fried squirrel anyone? They would need access to my property to rectify that. Seems NI guidelines state 5m clearance for trees: http://www.nienetworks.co.uk/safety/farmers-checklist/tree-cutting/tree-clearances but it seems in the UK as a whole there are no minimum clearances, just 'guidelines'. If I refuse for pruning they have statutory powers to do so in any case. But hopefully they will see sense before then! Thanks @StructuralEngineer I'll have a read through http://www.emfs.info/sources/overhead/specific/11-kv/ which seems quite useful.

Had a nightmare with overhead power cables when the side extension was about to start. Full story on ebuild for anyone wanting background: http://www.ebuild.co.uk/topic/16812-high-voltage-power-cable-passing-over-extension/page__hl__overhead So extension is now up, and scaffolding has all been removed and I now want the damn cables removed (11Kv) as they're still a liability if I wanted to start fishing from the balcony or the kids decided to fly a kite from the garden. There is/was a wayleave agreement but this was acknowledged to be void as it mentions parties that no longer reside/own the respective lands that are impacted by the cables. Badly worded in the 1970s, but good in my favour now. So I've just informed the power company that I want them to start the (no doubt lengthy) process of removing them. They'd already indicated 2 years ago that they *could* underground them in an adjacent field around my property to the adjacent sub station. Seems this has been discuseed a few times on ebuild and BH, e.g. but in most cases it appears it's the self builder having to cough up. I'm sure they will try and come back to me with a cost I have to meet, but as there is no valid agreement between both parties I don't see how they could expect me to pay. Not involved any legal bods yet and don't wish to if I can help it. My main question is how long can I be expected to wait for them to actually start the work? I thought I had previously read somewhere that legally they have to have the work completed within 12months after agreement has been made that the work is to be undertaken, but I can't find that article now. Is there a legal boot up the backside that I can rely on, as no doubt they will drag this out as it's going to be a costly affair as they will have to underground around 500m. I did already refused entry for one of their contracted tree cutters to prune some of the trees on my plot as I knew they would sit on my request even longer if they had managed to prune the trees to industry guidelines. I don't like playing difficult but I may be in a better position if my trees are about to take down their lines (I better get by PV batteries ordered!). Although I expect they can get a legal order to prune them if needed. Thanks, OB

That's been on my mind also these past few days. Just been trawling 20+ pages on ebuild on sunamp discussions, but still none the wiser. I suspect that with a Sunamp stack (having sufficient cells) could do both DHW and UFH, but would probably still need a combi if using PV or other heat source (for those Cumbrian weeks where you get no sun) or perhaps an ASHP....and then still need a buffer tank. But that plumber chap from the Valley's will be along soon enough no doubt with his wisdom.

@Nickfromwales Thanks! I'd just started looking into Sunamp (again) when I came across your corrossion post, but seems this may not derail my plans then with the two cell types being 'multi-source'. I just need to get my head around your setup suggestions in my other thread!

PCM58 cells are the ones typically charged by a gas boiler and the PCM34 cells are low temp ones typically charged by PV and ASHP?

Had read that may be a best option where you have no mains gas etc and also the cost of the unit did not make sense, but looking at the cost of it now, they seem to have reduced it quite a bit. I will need to have a more in depth look at that again, as last time (2-3yrs ago it just did not add up). Aahhh....okay, so I don't necessarily need a buffer tank. I had read issues with short cycling etc and hence the need for a buffer. I am a bit tight on space and didn't really want to use living space downstairs for another tank. Thanks @CC45! And I guess the main reason you have a buffer is because you have a mix of rads and UFH?

Needing to focus on my next project after my UFH fiasco and being in a holiday rental place where the DHW is very hit and miss reminds me that I need to get some specs laid down before I start ordering stuff! Having read so much over the past couple of years, I feel a lot more informed but also a bit bamboozled at the same time. UVC or TS, buffer tanks, what size..... So my main questions (so far): 1) what type of gas boiler to go for? 2) Thermal store or UVC? 3) Buffer tank needed? My setup will be: 4kw solar PV Mains gas 2 UFH manifolds (upstairs and groundfloor - so I can choose the flow temps accordingly to get the maximum comfort levels) Room stats in all areas 2 Bathrooms (2 showers, 2 baths) MHVR Although not going to be a passivhaus, I’m hopeful it'll be a bloody whole let better than your standard newbuild: 2 SIP extensions 300mm EPS floor insulation 3G windows/doors 100mm EWI on existing house DHW requirement: 2 adults and two soon to be teenagers (so they will hardly wash reducing the DHW figures a bit) 2 morning showers 2 evening baths Hot water for washing up (though may get a boiler-type tap for most hot water needs in the kitchen) Occupancy: Wife and kids out and I although I work from home, my office will be one of the sheds out the back so main house can either be set to off or very low temps during the day. UFH demands: Groundfloor: Water volume: 129L; Estimated loading: 9.45Kw Upstairs: Water volume: 25L; Estimated loading: 2.03Kw BOILER QUESTION: Before I start getting plumbers out to fit a boiler system, I’d like to get people’s advice on whether to go for system or combi. Combi = don’t need a water storage cylinder = no need for cistern in loft = combi boilers don’t supply enough hot water = better to use a separate cylinder for the hot water supply. = combi boilers can be quite noisy. System = Store hot water in a cylinder, so they can feed several outlets at once at mains pressure. = no need for a cistern in the loft and the expansion vessel is built in. = Flow rates will be high as water is delivered at mains pressure, and hot water is instantaneous. I'm thinking to go for a system boiler at this stage (easier/quicker install) and then to use excess PV with the cylinder. THERMAL STORE OR UVC? My thoughts so far are to have a 300L UVC fed partly by the solar PV during the day (using an Immersun type of device) with maybe E10/E7 at night and then also the gas boiler. I would end up with two circuits – one for DHW and one for UFH. The boiler would kick in for the UFH when the UVC doesn’t require heat. BUFFER TANK? I'm also thinking that if I go for a UVC rather than thermal store (from what I have read on here) I would need a buffer store seeing I will have UFH. But I've read that if I opt for a TS, that can be my buffer tank also. So perhaps I should go for a TS rather than a UVC? Confused.... Hoping someone (AKA: @Nickfromwales etc) is able to assist..... Thanks, OB

In Spain to get away from it all at the moment so not had time to reply until now. Found a lovely renovation project here....not told the wife yet! Better get the house completed when I get back first! Thanks Nick et al. Looks like I won't go cutting the pipe. Will see what other shit I find when the other floors are scraped flat etc. Yes, pipes were fully purged prior to concrete pour - I worked through the whole night to make sure everything was ready to go, cable ties added where needed, all tails cut, sufficient chairs to support mesh. I have plenty of pics to prove that the issue was not to do with not enough cables ties. And all the pipes dug up so far indicate the the pipes were still cabled to the mesh. The manner in which he poured the concrete meant that the concrete forced the mesh up, particularly in the corners of a room. And rather than trying to push it back down again, he'd just pour in some more to cover up the mesh, never mind that the level was now far too high. I also think he was pushed for time to get the pour done in 2hrs, so he didn't want to be faffing with rising mesh. But really annoying that he did not at least alert me of the issue as I could have been rectifying the issue at the time rather than now! I won't tell the wife that this could take me another 4yrs then!! Going to see what the bill comes to before I decided whether to employ the services of a PI. Would be quicker, but also quicker to seriously dent/damage the pipework that way. That's a really helpful comment Onoff!! Let me go and start again.... Nice not to be on site at just ponder over solutions from afar and decide whether to go for a mould approach or 'tape'n'concrete. I've been wondering whether it's worth getting some sort of humidity sensor that I can insert next to the pipework before I concrete/screed it over so that I can take measurements maybe every month or so to ensure everything is stable? Obviously if there is ever a leak in that location in future, it would have to be dug up, but at least I would know sooner than later and get the repair completed.

Thanks for the offer of help. The annoying thing is that it's taken 4yrs to get to this stage. The Mrs wants me to get trades involved to speed things up and then this happens! I was going to go do this with the help of my neighbour and do it a room at a time with screed bars in place. A lot slower, but we would have had the whole place done in a couple of weeks max and there wouldn't have been any bodges/remedial work 6m later! Yes, the anger subsided. Just hope I never see the prat in person as something may fuse in my head all of a sudden causing my fist to land on his face!

Plenty of Bodgit Builders around unfortunately. I have no choice but to grind down with my thresholds, so hopefully no more loops to discover. It's Pert-al-Pert (Wunda) so would a resin kit work with that also? Something like this? https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/WKMG300.html?source=adwords&ad_position=1o4&ad_id=45425533757&placement=&kw=&network=g&matchtype=&ad_type=pla&product_id=WKMG300&product_partition_id=174057604147&test=finalurl_v2&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIpp-37r-M2gIVybztCh09JwCHEAQYBCABEgKNA_D_BwE I have about 6bar mains pressure so that should test any repairs nicely, but maybe I should actually test with warm water at say 30 degrees? Means I better get my UVC and boiler choices decided!

I think you'll be fine. I had internal walls to deal with, so pouring one large slab is a lot easier and indeed the poured piled slabs for my extensions were mm perfect. You also didn't use the guy I had... Chipping out by hand....bolster and lump hammer. Was going to use angle grinder, but as I'm not sure where the UFH pipes ended up, I wanted to go the safer route.

Been a bit quiet on BH as I've been busy elsewhere - rectifying Bodgit Builder's attempt at laying my concrete floor. I started a thread about that here: Having taken ages to lay my circa 300mm of EPS and mesh-tied UFH pipework, I was keen to get a professional in to get me back on schedule and pour a flat, level concrete floor. No top layer screed. A few local companies quoted, one stated that they could not guarantee the pipework so I didn't go for them and the others I had simply had no faith in. I ended up contacting a local architect's firm and they recommended I contacted some of their regular builders. A couple were either too busy or candidly said that the job was not for them. The other chap came and quoted me for the job with the assurances that he could get a level floor finish. As it was a retrofit internal slab, it took him 2 days to pump 150sqm @100mm depth. On day 3, I inspected the 'finished' floor, and it was nothing but flat. I could really feel the varying levels of the floor by just walking around - I didn't need a level to tell it was way out. I also noted that the datum at the big slider was approx 20mm below where it should have been. Having contacted Bodgit Builder he duly came round and he agreed he would come back to grind down and high spots and fill where necessary with self-levelling (even confirmed the latter in an email). Prior to the day of his grinding, I scraped away at some of the high spots to discover that there was only 1-2mm of concrete/latence covering the UFH pipework. He'd obviously had issues with the mesh/pipework raising to the top (yes, I had fully purged all the air out!) and rather than doing his utmost to push the mesh down, he'd just decided to 'cover' the raised pipework with a bit more concrete. He either didn't have any idea that this would impact the agreed floor height or didn't give a damn (and must have thought I wouldn't notice!). He did admit that he'd had an issue with this section of the floor and asked me how I wanted to have it rectified. I duly informed him that this loop of pipework would have to be dug up and re-inserted at the appropriate depth and re-covered. He spent 2 days grinding high spots with little impact. Moaned at the cost of the grinding blocks and started making excuses as to why he couldn't make it back until a few weeks time. In any case, after nearly 6months later, he has not returned (as I expected) and have had minimal contact (just a few lame excuses) as to why he hasn't been able to rectify his work. Spot the issues: Is that a bit of mesh sticking through the floor? Yes! Luckily in the corner where the kitchen cupboards will be (no UFH). Easy to cut out in the end. Bit of a hump (approx 30mm difference over 500mm) Door threshold? what door threshold? Maybe should have gone for a concrete floor finish! Nice high spot by the door. Inward opening door too. May either need to skim off 30-4mm concrete (risk revealing more pipework or may have to raise the whole door frame - luckily it's timber framed at this section) Bit of a 'dump and dash' job Not that clear here, but concrete is well abobe the red mark (AKA the "do not go above here" mark). Yes Bodgit was wearing specs, but obviously didn't go to Specsavers. Can't get worse than that? Luckily I've found a local flooring company who also have experience in grinding, so they've been busy sorting out the high spots (only to reveal a further 3 rooms that have pipework that needs to be dug up). They didn't want to attempt doing that, and rather than risking getting in another 'professional' I've resorted to doing this myself. Intricate work that few builders would get right - not without damaging my ufh! Various UFH pipes revealed when skimming off the first few mm of concrete: Slab above probably needs another 20mm taking of in order to hit the original datum, so hopefully no further pipes to be found! First set fully revealed and ready to be pushed back although one has been damaged when they skimmed the top. You can just make out the grey inner lining: So this bugger needs to be replaced as the grinder's kinda ground it out. So how do you replace a section if the coupler's aren't supposed to be buried??? "16mm Repair coupling for use with Wunda 16mm Pert/Alu/Pert floor heating pipe, when a repair is the only option. This fitting must be fitted in a clearly accessible location and under no circumstances be buried in screed or concrete." https://cdn.wundatrade.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/T03-Wunda-Generic-16mm-nut-and-insert-repair-coupling.pdf Tape coupler with self amalgamating tape? Obviously will fully need to pressurize before I cover. I'll need to add the couplers on the straight sections as adding on the bend will just compromise it all. Should I leave a small void around this join in case I need to access it? Or box in around the coupler and fill with a weaker mix in case I need access in future years? It's in a corner in the kitchen with no units going on top, just the laminate flooring. At least I'm not the only one with this issue: Once the flooring company and I have completed the required work, I'll be looking to get a PI to locate Bodgit Builder as he's started moving house which isn't much use when you want to take the bar steward to the small claims court. Lessons learnt: Don't always trust recommendations! Do it yourself! Pay particular attention to the end and loops/mesh in the corner as these are the areas that seem to rise up when pouring It's not the end of the world, there are things much worse in life that will/can piss you off, so don't let the bar stewards get you down.

47 pages now!!!!!

I have some beads in my loft space - unintentional from when I was filling the wall cavities. They tend to do their own thing and any little movement of air will disperse them. So laying loft roll over the top of them will be a PIA. They will fly every where. And fitting light fixtures in ceiling could also be interesting even if you have swept them to one side to start off, the draft you have created with that new hole could lead up to a spectacular vortex waterfall of beads into the room below!

Think I need to do some of of that here too when the house is done. No doubt I will find numerous hammers, saws that I thought were long gone. So much sh1te here at the moment - wouldn't want anyone else having to figure out what each item was meant for if I topped off the scaffolding! Thanks CPD. I think the remaining wonga will be going on getting this house finished. Wife has threatened to drag me down to some kitchen place this week so I better save all pennies!