Kentish RenoExtension

Wow, that's not great

 

I've literally just done a similar size project, laying 300mm eps, mesh and tieing ufh pipes to mesh,

 

Our concrete has gone in, again nowhere near level - I'm hoping I don't encounter what you have. - I've not had any time to fully inspect prior to the sips panels going up.

 

I really hope I've got everything in the right place otherwise there'll be a lot of digging out and fixing.

 

how are you chipping out the concrete?

I think you'll be fine. I had internal walls to deal with, so pouring one large slab is a lot easier and indeed the poured piled slabs for my extensions were mm perfect.  You also didn't use the guy I had...

 

 

Chipping out by hand....bolster and lump hammer. Was going to use angle grinder, but as I'm not sure where the UFH pipes ended up, I wanted to go the safer route.

We had the same problem about ten years ago when doing a major renovation on a previous  property. Although our bodgit builder had marked levels, his concreteing gang mainly ignored them. We considered grinding off the high spot and filling the low spots, however having talked to the tiler who was going to tile some of the floors, we went with his recommendation to tile the whole lot. He used a sand and cement mix (as used by the Victorians prior to modern adhesives). He guarrenteed that none of the 900 x600 slate tiles would come up and none did.  He started his setting out at the highest point and worked everything back from there. Our UFH worked a treat with the slate, always warm feet.

Edited March 27, 2018 by Triassic

I wouldn't cut that pipe tbh. Is it Pex-al-pex? The grey shadow you can see is probably the aluminium layer, so the only bit compromised is the outer sheath. 

Id buy an external cable resin kit and pour a mould around the affected area to fortify where the sheath is damaged. You could even just back fill that whole trench with the resin, which imo would be infinitely better than cutting and jointing the pipe. 

FYI ive cut, joint and buried ufh couplers and elbows before with zero fail rate. The recommendation to have the joint exposed is just that, a recommendation. . In your instance I would, if your going to cut out the damaged section, just cut enough to be on clean pipe, and use two 90^o bends with a straight bit of pipe between them. 

Should have added that this pipe will tolerate crazy pressure, and yours will only ever see <3 bar max, 1.5 bar nominal which is nowt. 

Hi @oranjeboom, feel for you there, I guess the anger has subsided now.  That must be taking ages to do and its hardly exciting work.  Just when you want to be going forward you end up backtracking a bit.

 

Like you say - good tradespeople are rare as hell.  I normally do everything myself - I find it less stressful, but the trade off is more time.

 

If you were close by I'd come and help for a few hours.

 

 

16 minutes ago, Triassic said:

We had the same problem about ten years ago when doing a major renovation on a previous  property. Although our bodgit builder had marked levels, his concreteing gang mainly ignored them. We considered grinding off the high spot and filling the low spots, however having talked to the tiler who was going to tile some of the floors, we went with his recommendation to tile the whole lot. He used a sand and cement mix (as used by the Victorians prior to modern adhesives). He guarrenteed that none of the 900 x600 slate tiles would come up and none did.  He started his setting out at the highest point and worked everything back from there. Our UFH worked a treat with the slate, always warm feet.

Plenty of Bodgit Builders around unfortunately. I have no choice but to grind down with my thresholds, so hopefully no more loops to discover.

 

19 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

I wouldn't cut that pipe tbh. Is it Pex-al-pex? The grey shadow you can see is probably the aluminium layer, so the only bit compromised is the outer sheath. 

Id buy an external cable resin kit and pour a mould around the affected area to fortify where the sheath is damaged. You could even just back fill that whole trench with the resin, which imo would be infinitely better than cutting and jointing the pipe. 

FYI ive cut, joint and buried ufh couplers and elbows before with zero fail rate. The recommendation to have the joint exposed is just that, a recommendation. . In your instance I would, if your going to cut out the damaged section, just cut enough to be on clean pipe, and use two 90^o bends with a straight bit of pipe between them. 

It's Pert-al-Pert (Wunda) so would a resin kit work with that also? Something like this? https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/WKMG300.html?source=adwords&ad_position=1o4&ad_id=45425533757&placement=&kw=&network=g&matchtype=&ad_type=pla&product_id=WKMG300&product_partition_id=174057604147&test=finalurl_v2&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIpp-37r-M2gIVybztCh09JwCHEAQYBCABEgKNA_D_BwE

 

I have about 6bar mains pressure so that should test any repairs nicely, but maybe I should actually test with warm water at say 30 degrees? Means I better get my UVC and boiler choices decided!

 

 

Tea and sympathy, OB.

 

Hope you get it working.

4 minutes ago, CC45 said:

Hi @oranjeboom, feel for you there, I guess the anger has subsided now.  That must be taking ages to do and its hardly exciting work.  Just when you want to be going forward you end up backtracking a bit.

 

Like you say - good tradespeople are rare as hell.  I normally do everything myself - I find it less stressful, but the trade off is more time.

 

If you were close by I'd come and help for a few hours.

 

 

Thanks for the offer of help. The annoying thing is that it's taken 4yrs to get to this stage. The Mrs wants me to get trades involved to speed things up and then this happens! I was going to go do this with the help of my neighbour and do it a room at a time with screed bars in place. A lot slower, but we would have had the whole place done in a couple of weeks max and there wouldn't have been any bodges/remedial work 6m later! Yes, the anger subsided. Just hope I never see the prat in person as something may fuse in my head all of a sudden causing my fist to land on his face!

 

Pointless testing with warm water tbh. 6 bar is 4 times the working pressure of the UFH system so if that holds then anything the system can chuck at it will hold too. Just make 100% sure the system contains a 3 bar PRV on the primary side and away to go. I honestly think you'll do more harm than good cutting into that pipe. 

That magic gel doesn't specifically state that it sets solid, which is what you'll need for the pipe repair. The manufacturer may be able to tell you, but won't endorse its use for this scenario. 

Me personally, if it were my house, id just backfill with a pissy mix of strong concrete or even a self levelling compound first ( up to a depth of 50mm ) and then screed over the repair. Your only looking to stop any expansion of the pipe tbh, so a few tight turns of PVC tape, 3-4 max to ensure the aluminium NEVER gets into contact with the concrete / other and you'll be fine. 

Oh, and the guy who did your concreting is a penis.  

if he spots you first I guess he will make a sharp exit - before you see him.

 

I get frustrated with my slow progress but at least I move forward - mm by mm mind.

 

Wouldn't an sds drill be quicker to chisel out the pipe?

-Service temperatures: 40°C - 95°C. 
-Maximum working pressure: 10bar
-Five-layer composite pipe. 
-Combines the benefits of both metal and plastic pipes. 

 

 

Sounds like you've just removed the protective outer layer. 

 

You'll need to check with the substance you use too, that its not going to dissolve the outer material of the pipe. @JSHarris territory there  

PEX is pretty resistant to most things.

 

FWIW I'd not cut the pipe and fit a joiner, I'd make up a small mould around the affected area and pour in some two pack PU potting compound.  That#s good enough to seal up high voltage underground electrical connections, and will be a belt-and-braces job around that scuffed section.

 

There are loads of places that sell the two pack PU resin, and it's all pretty much the same.  It has a little bit of "give" in it too, so won't be bothered by any slight expansion as the pipe warms up.

 

If your stuck for a supplier, then try Rapid: https://www.rapidonline.com/robnor-el116h-bk-500-thermal-conductive-polyurethane-resin-500g-87-0224

 

or TLC: https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/SWJKRESIN.html

 

You'll probably need a couple of the TLC kits, maybe three, to get enough resin to fill the mould.  Make the mould as tight to the pipe as you can - it it were me I'd try and make a mould from a bigger bit of pipe with a slice cut off, slid over the UFH pipe with the top open and the ends taped tight to the UFH pipe to stop the resin leaking out.

39 minutes ago, oranjeboom said:

The Mrs wants me to get trades involved to speed things up and then this happens!

 

I know exactly what you mean. I've been repeatedly disappointed with the work of experienced tradespeople, even when they come highly recommended from friends and family. I can't say that we had anyone on site where I felt completely happy with their work, except maybe our electrician and the guys that did the screeding in a couple of downstairs rooms. 

 

I've become so disillusioned that I'm trying to finish the work myself, but I'm very slow and often not very good. I don't know what the solution is, but I feel for you (if it helps, I spent around 10 hours last weekend rectifying the plasterboarding in our garage, due to the boarders not listening to the one simple instruction I gave them).

Just now, jack said:

I've become so disillusioned that I'm trying to finish the work myself, but I'm very slow and often not very good.

 

 

That's exactly what I've been doing, and equally I'm REALLY slow, so jobs seem to take forever.  The upside is that if there are any screw ups I've only myself to blame.......................

 

I’m in the best doing it your self camp, but my wife wants things done quicker. I’m currently fixing the reinforment steel for my basement, I’ve got two local guys helping me, they weren’t impressed when I insisted they get into their waterproofs and get stuck into some work during two hours of heavy rain this morning. Apparently I’m a slave driver!

they could always hide somewhere and not get paid.....  Why did they bring water proofs if they didn't expect to use them?

 

Farming in my blood - weather doesn't bother or stop me (unless its a howling gale - its the wind rather than the rain) - good luck with it.

Following on from Jeremy's advice, I reckon if you had the space you could use an actual cable joint mould, made for job as you can trim to suit the pipe dia:

 

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/SWJK1.html?

This morning's daft musing...

 

If you lay a wet concrete slab with the UFH pipes empty are they more likely to float up as opposed to if water filled?

The UFH pipes needs to be filled when pouring the slab anyway (manufacturers instructions). I'm guessing that the problem in this instance was insufficient staples/fixings to hold down the pipe.

 

I know it's not much help in this instance but you have to try and not mix diy work with contractors if you want to be able to have some comeback. Bodgit builder will have a ready made excuse that he didn't prep the floor if you ever try to sue him.

Hi Erwin, I'm really sorry to hear of your problems. Crap workers is why it's taken us eight years to finish ours. Even amateurs like me can do a better job than some of the 'professionals' out there. Hope you can track him down and get something back through the small claims court.

With the Polypipe trays the UFH pipes go UNDER the A142 mesh.....

In Spain to get away from it all at the moment so not had time to reply until now. Found a lovely renovation project here....not told the wife yet! Better get the house completed when I get back first!

 

On 27/03/2018 at 13:45, Nickfromwales said:

Pointless testing with warm water tbh. 6 bar is 4 times the working pressure of the UFH system so if that holds then anything the system can chuck at it will hold too. Just make 100% sure the system contains a 3 bar PRV on the primary side and away to go. I honestly think you'll do more harm than good cutting into that pipe. 

That magic gel doesn't specifically state that it sets solid, which is what you'll need for the pipe repair. The manufacturer may be able to tell you, but won't endorse its use for this scenario. 

Me personally, if it were my house, id just backfill with a pissy mix of strong concrete or even a self levelling compound first ( up to a depth of 50mm ) and then screed over the repair. Your only looking to stop any expansion of the pipe tbh, so a few tight turns of PVC tape, 3-4 max to ensure the aluminium NEVER gets into contact with the concrete / other and you'll be fine. 

Oh, and the guy who did your concreting is a penis.  

Thanks Nick et al. Looks like I won't go cutting the pipe.  Will see what other shit I find when the other floors are scraped flat etc.

 

On 28/03/2018 at 07:36, bassanclan said:

The UFH pipes needs to be filled when pouring the slab anyway (manufacturers instructions). I'm guessing that the problem in this instance was insufficient staples/fixings to hold down the pipe.

 

I know it's not much help in this instance but you have to try and not mix diy work with contractors if you want to be able to have some comeback. Bodgit builder will have a ready made excuse that he didn't prep the floor if you ever try to sue him.

 

 

Yes, pipes were fully purged prior to concrete pour - I worked through the whole night to make sure everything was ready to go, cable ties added where needed, all tails cut, sufficient chairs to support mesh. I have plenty of pics to prove that the issue was not to do with not enough cables ties. And all the pipes dug up so far indicate the the pipes were still cabled to the mesh. The manner in which he poured the concrete meant that the concrete forced the mesh up, particularly in the corners of a room. And rather than trying to push it back down again, he'd just pour in some more to cover up the mesh, never mind that the level was now far too high. I also think he was pushed for time to get the pour done in 2hrs, so he didn't want to be faffing with rising mesh. But really annoying that he did not at least alert me of the issue as I could have been rectifying the issue at the time rather than now!

 

On 28/03/2018 at 09:12, PeterStarck said:

Hi Erwin, I'm really sorry to hear of your problems. Crap workers is why it's taken us eight years to finish ours. Even amateurs like me can do a better job than some of the 'professionals' out there. Hope you can track him down and get something back through the small claims court.

I won't tell the wife that this could take me another 4yrs then!! Going to see what the bill comes to before I decided whether to employ the services of a PI.

 

On 27/03/2018 at 13:46, CC45 said:

 

Wouldn't an sds drill be quicker to chisel out the pipe?

Would be quicker, but also quicker to seriously dent/damage the pipework that way.

 

On 28/03/2018 at 09:32, Onoff said:

With the Polypipe trays the UFH pipes go UNDER the A142 mesh.....

 

That's a really helpful comment Onoff!! Let me go and start again....

 

 

 

Nice not to be on site at just ponder over solutions from afar and decide whether to go for a mould approach or 'tape'n'concrete.

 

I've been wondering whether it's worth getting some sort of humidity sensor that I can insert next to the pipework before I concrete/screed it over so that I can take measurements maybe every month or so to ensure everything is stable? Obviously if there is ever a leak in that location in future, it would have to be dug up, but at least I would know sooner than later and get the repair completed.