savings to be had

[selfbuildaberdeen]

Hi Folks,

 

Rather than ask how much something would cost to build, I'm keen to find out how much we can potentially save by doing certain things ourselves.

If we were to do the following how much are we likely to save off a turn key price from a main contractor for example?

We are based in Aberdeenshire Scotland if that helps at all. House is approx 195m2 internally.

 

- supply and labour for all decorating.

-painting and fitting of all internal skirting, facings and doors- supply will be included within kit price.

-supply and fit and kitchen/utility and bathrooms second fix.

- supply and fit all tiling/flooring.

- supply and fit externally all decorative landscaping, paths, decking.

 

Even if we can just get an idea on what % we are likely to save would help.

 

[recoveringbuilder]

How long is a piece of string?

decorating quite doable although gets pretty boring, depends how many doors etc need doing but we wouldn’t have considered doing this as it’s tricky to get them just right, skirting and facing too can look crap if they’re out a bit,

size of kitchen/ utility will command price but quite doable as well as bathroom,

I would imagine you’d want to supply your own tiles to choose what you want and get best price, can be a long job to get it right though 

landscaping etc quite doable but again you can’t just put a price on it as depends on size and spec

yo would need to get quotes for all this work then take away what you think you can do

[selfbuildaberdeen]

6 minutes ago, Christine Walker said:

How long is a piece of string?

decorating quite doable although gets pretty boring, depends how many doors etc need doing but we wouldn’t have considered doing this as it’s tricky to get them just right, skirting and facing too can look crap if they’re out a bit,

size of kitchen/ utility will command price but quite doable as well as bathroom,

I would imagine you’d want to supply your own tiles to choose what you want and get best price, can be a long job to get it right though 

landscaping etc quite doable but again you can’t just put a price on it as depends on size and spec

yo would need to get quotes for all this work then take away what you think you can do

Thanks Christine,

Its all things we have done before in other renovations so feel its achievable to do this again ourselves.

I think the worry is these are the areas where the main contractor would get the biggest profit from so if we tell him from the start we are doing these things he will just over charge on other parts of the project instead or am I just being skeptical?

[ragg987]

The 2 builders I spoke to were charging a day rate (skill based) so not a case of what is more profitable. They wanted a margin on materials, which seems fair, but I believe this is an area where a determined person can make a significant saving e.g. by scouring internet or ringing around for best prices. Builders just get stuff from the local build merchant, generally more expensive even before you add the margin and time.

 

Some might argue that buying materials will impact your cash flow as you have to pay vat then reclaim it, but your price plus vat is likely to be no higher then the builders price less vat, then the reclaim vat payment at the end becomes a nice bonus.

[scottishjohn]

just me maybe 

but i would never if at all possible go for a daily rate --thats a free hand to go slow and make job last

If they have a problem giving a quote for the labour to do the job --then they are not my idea of a professional builder.

If you brought your car into me and i told you I,ll charge by hour + you,ll be paying for the men to go for lunch and having wee sleeps on the job -and not give you a quote for the job ,so you could compare my price with others--you would walk away .

would you pay a brickie like that ?--no you would ask for a price per thousand 

 

[selfbuildaberdeen]

2 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

just me maybe 

but i would never if at all possible go for a daily rate --thats a free hand to go slow and make job last

If they have a problem giving a quote for the labour to do the job --then they are not my idea of a professional builder.

If you brought your car into me and i told you I,ll charge by hour + you,ll be paying for the men to go for lunch and having wee sleeps on the job -and not give you a quote for the job ,so you could compare my price with others--you would walk away .

would you pay a brickie like that ?--no you would ask for a price per thousand 

 

this makes total sense john!

[ragg987]

It is a question of trust. I did a lot of my build this way, I may have been lucky but in my experience local builders and other trades are not out to rip you off, they take pride in their work plus need to hold their head up high in the community.

 

At the other extreme you can fix price, but the builder is going to add their x% contingency to any such deal, plus you end up with a bunch of variations. I suspect x might be 15 to 20%?

[recoveringbuilder]

Definitely agree with that @scottishjohn, in our last build we got into a situation and had to dispense with the services of our main builder, suddenly we had half a house and were desperate to get it to w&w so employed a joiner on an hourly rate- bad idea he totally took the p , after we got to that stage we told him we could no longer pay him that way and that if he wanted the rest of the work he’d have to give us a price for the job, he wasn’t long getting the rest done!

as for @selfbuildaberdeen if you are confident in doing the work you’ve mentioned just ask for a quote for the work you do want done, we employed our builders on a labour only basis and they knew from the outset that we would be doing ourselves or employing someone else to do certain things and they were fine with that, funnily enough when we started pricing up what we needed doing I had guesstimated prices for each thing and I was pleasantly surprised when their quote came back within the guesstimate!

[newhome]

I don’t think there is a clear answer when it comes to fixed price vs time and materials. I’ve had good experiences with both and poor ones too. Ultimately it comes down to the tradesman IMO. There are those that drag out a job to get paid more if it’s T&M and those who rush a fixed price job to get it done quickly and demonstrate lack of care. The best thing you can do when building is try to employ recommended trades and keep hold of the ones you trust that do a good job. 

[ProDave]

1 hour ago, scottishjohn said:

just me maybe 

but i would never if at all possible go for a daily rate --thats a free hand to go slow and make job last

If they have a problem giving a quote for the labour to do the job --then they are not my idea of a professional builder.

If you brought your car into me and i told you I,ll charge by hour + you,ll be paying for the men to go for lunch and having wee sleeps on the job -and not give you a quote for the job ,so you could compare my price with others--you would walk away .

would you pay a brickie like that ?--no you would ask for a price per thousand 

 

I disagree

 

If asked to quote for a (wiring) job and give a fixed price, I have to assume the job us going to be a b*****d and I am going to have lots of hassle taking floorboards up, and anything that can get in the way will.

 

On the other hand I much prefer to give an estimate and charge the job by the hour it actually takes.  Almost always the hourly rate job is less than it would have been as a fixed price and the customer is happy.

 

It is trust.  I am honest and don't just skive and charge them by the hour for doing nothing. I would be very annoyed if my mechanic charged by the hour to skive and he would not get any repeat business.  It is no accident I have been taking my car to the same garage for the last 13 years, and it is not the closest garage, it is the one I trust.

 

If you mistrust your tradesman to the point of thinking he is goinf to deliberately rip you off, you probably need to find another tradesman who comes with a recommendation so you can trust him to be fair.

[selfbuildaberdeen]

Thanks folks,

 

Is it maybe better to then ask what % of the build cost is spent after 1st fix?

Is there a general rule of thumb accepted for % cost at each stage ie - foundations x%, frame up x%, wind/water tight x%, 1st fix an plaster x%, 2nd fix to completion x%-

It is a timber frame, 100% timber clad, slate and sarnafil roof.

Inside will not be mega high spec but still good quality- just no gimmicks.

[Triassic]

Where we live you can only get trades on an hourly rate! Mind you,I work with them so there is no slacking, for example our roofer was on the roof in the pouring rain all day on Friday, all for £20 / hour.

[K78]

I’m on a tight budget not by design but through current circumstances.

 

Fixtures and fittings are easy to cost. Depending on taste the price will vary massively. 

 

From what you have listed all you will save is labour costs. Around £150 per person per day. 

 

Ive costed all the different build methods. Block is by far the cheapest in my area. ICF is a option if I do most of the work myself. 

 

The biggest variance in plots is the cost of services and foundations. 

[Alexphd1]

When I was on the tools I preferred set price job as you could make more money, go in and blitz the job quick plus mark up on materials.... win win. Being a greedy bugger I have employed the few trades we have had on hour day rate and worked very well but I have always been on site and worked along with them. Example I fitted all electrical metal back boxes before sparkie arrived. I also made it clear to him i am not paying him to clean up behind him!! Be warned any saving made is quickly lost if trade is on site with the wrong material you need to be ahead of the game. 

Example of quick DIY savings is UFH probably save 60-70% easy from employing a plumber for the pipe/manifold side. 

I know a good guy with his own plant equipment in your neck of the woods who works on a day rate for the foundations.

 

 

 

[selfbuildaberdeen]

10 minutes ago, K78 said:

I’m on a tight budget not by design but through current circumstances.

 

Fixtures and fittings are easy to cost. Depending on taste the price will vary massively. 

 

From what you have listed all you will save is labour costs. Around £150 per person per day. 

 

Ive costed all the different build methods. Block is by far the cheapest in my area. ICF is a option if I do most of the work myself. 

 

The biggest variance in plots is the cost of services and foundations. 

When we went to visit a few newly completed self builds (all by different contractors) we weren't really impressed with any of their finishing tbh.

I think if you do it yourself your standard is so much higher and it really shows in the end product. Doing what you can yourself is defiantly the way forward like you say.

 

 

We have what the structural engineer has classed as 'standard ground' requiring a strip/pad foundation.

Electricity is coming in at 6k.

Water is private (servitude rights already bought) so we just need to purchase a treatment plant for around 1k and have the plumber connect and install. Connection point is already on site.

I have not included any service connections in my build budget tho and have kept them separate along with all professional fees, application fees, warranty and insurances.

 

[Crofter]

I'd be wary of assuming that second fix stuff if easy. Doors, linings, architraves, skirtings, are all quite fiddly and a competent tradesman will do a good job in a fraction of the time that you would do it yourself. I did all mine myself on a 43m2 house (yes, it is really that small) and was surprised how long it took. All of these things are permanently on display as a reminder of your workmanship so you do want to get it right.

 

By contrast, seemingly bigger and more important jobs can actually be easier. Plasterboarding is simple and you can always cover up your mistakes with filler afterwards. Framing up partitions is not difficult. I knocked up the entire kit myself and found it simpler than the second fix jobs.

 

As to saving money, one of the easiest ways is by rigorously chasing the best prices on everything. It's tempting to open an account at a builders' merchant and just buy everything from them as you need it, but you will pay for this convenience. Likewise letting your trades supply everything at list price.

If you are organised enough, put together big orders and then phone every possible source and get them to compete with each other's quotes until you can't get it any lower. 

And don't discount eBay and Amazon- my shower tray, screen, mixer valve, and kitchen tap all came from them. A fraction of the price of the conventional sources and as far as I can tell all perfectly serviceable.

If you are really keen to save money, keep an eye open for secondhand or ex-display items as well. My Bosch induction hob was £200 from the Curry's eBay shop, my Bosch oven was £50 off Gumtree and looks brand new.

[selfbuildaberdeen]

2 minutes ago, Alexphd1 said:

When I was on the tools I preferred set price job as you could make more money, go in and blitz the job quick plus mark up on materials.... win win. Being a greedy bugger I have employed the few trades we have had on hour day rate and worked very well but I have always been on site and worked along with them. Example I fitted all electrical metal back boxes before sparkie arrived. I also made it clear to him i am not paying him to clean up behind him!! Be warned any saving made is quickly lost if trade is on site with the wrong material you need to be ahead of the game. 

Example of quick DIY savings is UFH probably save 60-70% easy from employing a plumber for the pipe/manifold side. 

I know a good guy with his own plant equipment in your neck of the woods who works on a day rate for the foundations.

 

 

 

Always open to recommendations!

[selfbuildaberdeen]

1 minute ago, Crofter said:

I'd be wary of assuming that second fix stuff if easy. Doors, linings, architraves, skirtings, are all quite fiddly and a competent tradesman will do a good job in a fraction of the time that you would do it yourself. I did all mine myself on a 43m2 house (yes, it is really that small) and was surprised how long it took. All of these things are permanently on display as a reminder of your workmanship so you do want to get it right.

 

By contrast, seemingly bigger and more important jobs can actually be easier. Plasterboarding is simple and you can always cover up your mistakes with filler afterwards. Framing up partitions is not difficult. I knocked up the entire kit myself and found it simpler than the second fix jobs.

 

As to saving money, one of the easiest ways is by rigorously chasing the best prices on everything. It's tempting to open an account at a builders' merchant and just buy everything from them as you need it, but you will pay for this convenience. Likewise letting your trades supply everything at list price.

If you are organised enough, put together big orders and then phone every possible source and get them to compete with each other's quotes until you can't get it any lower. 

And don't discount eBay and Amazon- my shower tray, screen, mixer valve, and kitchen tap all came from them. A fraction of the price of the conventional sources and as far as I can tell all perfectly serviceable.

If you are really keen to save money, keep an eye open for secondhand or ex-display items as well. My Bosch induction hob was £200 from the Curry's eBay shop, my Bosch oven was £50 off Gumtree and looks brand new.

Hi,

Thanks for the tips!

 

We are certainly up for finding a bargain and would always buy ex display/ decent second hand before new even now. The auction houses in Edinburgh and Wales have some amazing finds for ex display stock from up market stores/show homes.

 

For the internals, plaster boarding, plastering, second fix, tilling, internal joinery etc are all things we are used to doing from previous renos so no problem there. And we actually enjoy it as sad as that may be. We have practiced our skills and made plenty of mistakes on what we have then sold on to others. Hopefully our skills are now up to scratch! Agree it takes so much longer tho. I believe we lived with a toilet balancing on a square of MDF at the far side of the bathroom for about a week.... balancing across the joists to reach it in teh middle of the night was interesting.... and yes it was our only toilet haha.

Wouldn't be as brave as you to put the whole kit up tho. Feel much more satisfaction from the little fiddly jobs anyway

[jonM]

I've built most of my current house on T&M and have been very happy with the way that has worked out. It requires trust on both sides but I've found that trades working on T&M have done a great job and been good value. I have also purchased almost all of my own material and it is quite staggering how much money you can save doing that. If you have a limited amount of time available then I think that the best way to save money is to purchase your own material. None of the trades have been able to match my prices. 

 

Prior to my first self build I did an NVQ in bricklaying. I was about 10 times slower than the professionals and the results weren't as good even after 2 years of evening classes. I came to the conclusion I was better off earning money to paying trades who knew what they were doing. 

[scottishjohn]

5 hours ago, ProDave said:

If you mistrust your tradesman to the point of thinking he is goinf to deliberately rip you off, you probably need to find another tradesman who comes with a recommendation so you can trust him to be fair.

how many times are you going to build a house --most people it will be a one off --so if he can make  killing-he ain,t worried about repeat biz

I agree though in a small community they could not get away with that for long ,if there are others who will break sweat and do a good job 

big cities will always be far worse 

 as for extras  ,that again comes down to experience  and a good tradesman should know  where the problems will be an advise at the outset -like floor boards 

but we are talking about quotes on new build --so thats a different thing -notas  many valid excuses  for extras if if studied the plans to start with +asked questions

eg If i get a jap 4x4 at 10 years old needs a -say an abs sensor --

Iknow for sure that the fixings will break and i,ll be drilling  and retapping  .why cos they do little rust protection so things corrode much worse than a european vehicle 

 

 

at 3 years old --no it will be the 1/2 hr job the book says it is

[Ferdinand]

16 hours ago, selfbuildaberdeen said:

Even if we can just get an idea on what % we are likely to save would help.

 

I think numbers are impossible to come up with for all-inclusive, because the starting point is always different. 

 

The only place you could refer to would be either your own research, local self-builders, or your architect, or SPONS.

 

What is your price standard? - There isn't one until you create your own.

 

On materials etc I tend to treat current Wickes headline price as my standard, and aim to dip about 35-40% below it on average.

 

Ferdinand

[Wagas]

Personally from experience so far I'd say don't sweat the small stuff and put some time into negotiating the big ticket items. Attic roof truss quotes ranged from £6,250-£15,000 and the £6,250 guy turned out to be the most helpful and engaging guy with a better product so guess who I went with. Saving £9k on the trusses is worth the time spent whereas saving a few quid on sand deliveries probably isn't worth the hassle. For bricks/blocks I ended up just contacting the managers of two local builders merchants and were surprised at how keen they were for my business. Offered me 30-40% off web 'trade prices' without me even asking.

 

There will also be times where it's worth paying a bit more for peace of mind. My brickies offered to lay the b&b floor but I got the beam manufacturers to lay it. It cost me a bit more but I figured they lay these things all day so there will be no mistakes (eg cutting beams). They laid it in about 2 hours, I think my brickies would have taken a couple of days. Another example is I had some steel windposts made and I was thinking of just getting a keen DIY neighbour to fit them and in the end I asked the chap who made them to install them thinking he had all the proper tools and knows what he's doing, best £60 I've spent so far as it turned out to be a fiddly job.

 

 

 

[selfbuildaberdeen]

20 minutes ago, Wagas said:

Personally from experience so far I'd say don't sweat the small stuff and put some time into negotiating the big ticket items. Attic roof truss quotes ranged from £6,250-£15,000 and the £6,250 guy turned out to be the most helpful and engaging guy with a better product so guess who I went with. Saving £9k on the trusses is worth the time spent whereas saving a few quid on sand deliveries probably isn't worth the hassle. For bricks/blocks I ended up just contacting the managers of two local builders merchants and were surprised at how keen they were for my business. Offered me 30-40% off web 'trade prices' without me even asking.

 

There will also be times where it's worth paying a bit more for peace of mind. My brickies offered to lay the b&b floor but I got the beam manufacturers to lay it. It cost me a bit more but I figured they lay these things all day so there will be no mistakes (eg cutting beams). They laid it in about 2 hours, I think my brickies would have taken a couple of days. Another example is I had some steel windposts made and I was thinking of just getting a keen DIY neighbour to fit them and in the end I asked the chap who made them to install them thinking he had all the proper tools and knows what he's doing, best £60 I've spent so far as it turned out to be a fiddly job.

 

 

 

Defiantly some good advice there.

The time spent scrimping and saving pennies sometimes is not worth it (even when they all add up) especially when you consider how much money you could earn working that time instead.

The money saved on bigger ticket items is often more substantial but I suppose the caution there is ensuring the quality/customer service is up to scratch still as you say.

 

 

 

[selfbuildaberdeen]

3 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

 

I think numbers are impossible to come up with for all-inclusive, because the starting point is always different. 

 

The only place you could refer to would be either your own research, local self-builders, or your architect, or SPONS.

 

What is your price standard? - There isn't one until you create your own.

 

On materials etc I tend to treat current Wickes headline price as my standard, and aim to dip about 35-40% below it on average.

 

Ferdinand

Thanks Ferdinand,

 

Was more looking for a standard break down for a kit on standard strip/pad foundations which I could then adjust for certain aspect of our own plan which might come in more expensive in certain areas.

For example should the kit price (closed kit with triple glazed external windows and doors included), supply only, equal about 25%, 50% or 75% of the overall build budget?

 

[newhome]

49 minutes ago, selfbuildaberdeen said:

For example should the kit price (closed kit with triple glazed external windows and doors included), supply only, equal about 25%, 50% or 75% of the overall build budget?

 

Mine was about 25% of the overall build budget.