Zoot's Extension- advice needed.

[zoothorn]

Hi chaps,

 

I'm waiting on a quote for a basic 2 story extension (wales- you have to wait!) which I've asked to be itemised, so I can pick & choose: the idea being to get my costs down > so I can just afford the project. IE I get a separate quote, for say the easier pg1 bits like the groundwork, from a cheaper builder. 

 

What I'd like advice on, at this early stage, is separating out the 'easy' parts that conceivably I could do myself. Having done my kitchen -with fab help on here- I know that once the timber frame walls, membranes & ply outer/ the dividing floor/ & roof up & its weatherproof.. I can celotex the walls/ the easy job of all surely. And I can install the electrics, as will be minimal: 1 double socket per story & 1x strip light, is all the extension requires. And the pB.. proven I can do too.

 

I'm thinking from start up, & looking at how at each & every step, I could either jump in like this & do myself. But I've no idea even whether I'm "allowed to" (from a building officer/ regs pov), my not being an electrician or indeed a builder 'qualifications', to do any bits myself. What's the situation on this?

 

And also, I do have a neighbour up the road (a nice one- woohoo!) who proudly owns a mini digger.. could I get him dig the 3 footing trenches I wonder? maybe then, & I'm itching to find this out, could I even get the concrete poured/ the foundations done 'myself' instead of my builder? I've no idea on how difficult a process this might be to oversee &/ or well.. if its feasable to consider or a loony idea.

 

Much appreciate any replies. yrs zoot

[nod]

Do you need a quote 

From the list above you have covered pretty much everything yourself 

Get a quote for materials and crack on ?

[ProDave]

It is no good getting a quote from a builder then saying to him, yes please do this bit and that bit and I will get someone else to to the rest.  If you want to be using multiple contractors and doing some work yourself, then be open and honest and say these are the bits I need to subcontract and need a price for.

[PeterW]

Truth being if you sub the bits out, it will cause problems as for things such as timber frame your founds need to be spot on +\-5mm along the lengths so if you get this wrong, the timber frame doesn’t fit properly. Then you have to sort that, and it puts your costs up and timeline behind. 

 

Electrics will be part p notifiable so you’ll need an electrician anyway.  

[MJNewton]

22 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Electrics will be part p notifiable so you’ll need an electrician anyway.  

 

Not of they are just extensions to existing circuits, which it sounds like these are going to be given the low numbers. 

[PeterW]

8 minutes ago, MJNewton said:

 

Not of they are just extensions to existing circuits, which it sounds like these are going to be given the low numbers. 

 

Yep sorry - just re-read that. 

[MJNewton]

Of course, it does need doing in accordance with the regs though. 

[newhome]

Could you get a quote to ‘watertight’ and then look to see what bits from first fix onwards you could do yourself as those will be the bits that you are more likely to be able to DIY? Maybe you could offer to do some of the labour to get to the watertight stage to keep costs down. 

[zoothorn]

4 hours ago, nod said:

Do you need a quote 

From the list above you have covered pretty much everything yourself 

Get a quote for materials and crack on ?

 

Hi chaps thx for replies.

 

nod- Yes I definitely do. Whilst in 'theory' I could cut timbers (chopsaw), fit together/ c'tex fill.. & in 'theory' fix 3 prefab'd walls to slab & so on (even the dividing floor being timber & me being skilled enough to cut to correct lengths, I could in 'theory' put up too) I'd not even consider attempting. Bc Ive no experience in doing such a project whatsoever, I'm totally on my own: the stakes just are far too high etc.

 

I have an ameinable builder you see, whose done £5k of work here (chimney rebuild mainly, & other stuff). Ive mentioned if I could do some parts, & he agrees no problem suggesting an 'itemised' quote I can "pick & choose from". He totally understands I have a ltd income, & couldn't afford the whole thing pro done, & sees I have some wood skills too. We get on well. Maybe asking if he can leave the wall c'tex to me.. is asking a bit much as Id get in the way I guess/ fk up their flow.

 

Ok so let me just ask you guys on this- the foundations. I'm sure my builder would help marking (or someone competent if not him) out the footing outlines for me. Ok let's assume I get 3 footing trenches dug in correct place/ depth & width etc. The process from here to have a bed on which he builds the walls: is it feasable to organise 1) the concrete pour, 2) the next bit > up to having a surface > my builder then comes in?

[Ferdinand]

If you are drawing lines between bits you do and bits the builder does, you need to be very sure indeed that nothing falls in between - as you are then taking responsibility for ensuring that all bases are covered.

[zoothorn]

2 hours ago, MJNewton said:

Of course, it does need doing in accordance with the regs though. 

 

 But this is what I'm asking about. The forum, & many build projects in general I see on tv shows, the majority of threads on this site.. have a certain ammount of 'hands on' non-pro input: many total self-build projects: its the very essence of the forum afaict. So how do these get built to 'regs' without being a pro hand involved?

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, newhome said:

Could you get a quote to ‘watertight’ and then look to see what bits from first fix onwards you could do yourself as those will be the bits that you are more likely to be able to DIY? Maybe you could offer to do some of the labour to get to the watertight stage to keep costs down. 

 

 Hi newhome- this is indeed the basic idea I had in mind, succinctly put to "a quote pls to build up to watertight". I'm sure my builder would provide me a quote for this. Then the consideration is whether its feasable I could, for eg, do the groundwork, & the bigger Q being: could I perhaps then do a block outer course (on my lower story, only 1 door to navigate around) > organise scaffold up (pro/ Id not attempt this, presuming my original builders' scaffold need be removed to start a block outer course on lower story) > get builder back to do 1st floor blockwork?

[MJNewton]

55 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

 But this is what I'm asking about. The forum, & many build projects in general I see on tv shows, the majority of threads on this site.. have a certain ammount of 'hands on' non-pro input: many total self-build projects: its the very essence of the forum afaict. So how do these get built to 'regs' without being a pro hand involved?

 

Compliance with the regs is (mostly¹) just that - complying with the rules laid down in legislation. It is only a matter of knowledge and skill, neither of which necessarily requires a professional. Forums like this can obviously really help with the knowledge side of things, and often times even if you don't have direct experience/skill of a particular task you often find that you have transferable skills from elseswhere.

 

¹ Issues can arise from *proving* you've complied with the rules which, in the case of notifiable electrical work for example, means formal qualifications are required to be held in order to (self-)certify the work.

[zoothorn]

MJNewton- very useful info there: actually I sort of thought this -may- be the general idea, ie as long as the regs are fully complied with & up to a decent std.. then not neccessarily a pro need do it. So this is why I need to carefully separate all things I can do, & see if my builder happy to separate off / happy etc. To be honest its the only way I can afford to get the extention built.

 

As to the electrics, I take your point on board absolutely (I think I do need to create at least one new 'spur' rather than extending existng ones), so will consult my nice 'leccy chap in village (who encouraged me to jump in & do basic things- wire in cooker/ rewire sockets/ new factplates/ new backboxes etc I did fine in kitchen) as seems sensible him do in retrospect as he's qualified, although I know I could probably do job with prior research: the consumer unit is ideally positioned adjacent to the extention, just a drill thru stone wall behind > & into new build.

 

So I need to consider the groundwork then. If say I get builder to mark out > then my n'bor chap with digger etc.. its the stages from here until I have a floor my builder can come onto & do the build, I need advice on.

[Onoff]

How are you going to know how wide & deep to make your footings or whether you need to pile etc without employing an architectural technician and/or structural engineer? Some guidance on the process here:

 

https://www.homebuilding.co.uk/foundation-systems-and-soil-types/

[dpmiller]

Council BCO's local knowledge is good value for footings.

[zoothorn]

15 hours ago, Onoff said:

How are you going to know how wide & deep to make your footings or whether you need to pile etc without employing an architectural technician and/or structural engineer? Some guidance on the process here:

 

https://www.homebuilding.co.uk/foundation-systems-and-soil-types/

 

Hi Onoff-

 

well according to my builder: he said that even considering just a single story in block ie w'out the top floor room.. the footings' D had to increace to standard D & W regardless of whether another story was added ontop. I guaged from this, that a std footings D & W was therefore needed. Is this not the case then?

 

I will look into it, but whatever it might be.. let's just presume I can obtain these 2 figures. So, its the step between having the trenches dug >>> & having a floor my builder can come onto & build upon.. is what I need advice on. At the moment its a total blank (bar some form of a concrete pour).

 

Re. an architectural "..." I do/ did have an "architectural consultant" but no idea what this means, what his job actually is (bar drawing a plan > submitting it) who drew up plans, which I thought I needed in order to do the project & submit the plan to the PP dept. I've had no idea about any of the process in how to obtain PP, get quotes & the other factors re. a simple extention.. a massive frustration.

 

If -only- there was a simple step-by-step guide, anything, just to help people like me know what to do. I have got PP.. but only due to luck via a series of entirely wrong moves, bc there's no-one or no info out there for me to know what to do. So I need a quote: but I need a plan, in order to get one.. so I need to spend £1.5k on an "architectural consultant" or someone like so, to get a plan (plus £600 on a fkn "bat survey" in order to establish if it can be built at all). So I  do all this.. get PP.. then wait & get quotes in finally.. only to find I can'tt possibly afford any (bc I had no idea what figures Id be dealing with).. so I've spent £2.3k on nothing. This was the catch22 position Ive been in for a year+.

 

NOW, a year+ on, with thoughts on my own input into build (knowing that I'm alot more capable than a yr ago), & maybe getting a n'bor to dig trenches etc... I MIGHT just be able to afford it. Hence my thread. And I will plough on & try & understand the damn steps/ process, but by hook or by crook I WILL get this built. I have PP. And so HAVE to now/ I cannot live without a workspace.

 

 

[zoothorn]

Can anyone give me a rough 'overview' of what is between the trenches.. & a floor onto which the walls/ the structure is built?

 

Just a rough idea? I'm not yet needing dimension specifics, I'm -way- off this. IE what happens once the trenches are dug.

 

For eg, & these are complete guesses..

 

1) concrete is poured

2) a frame of somesort is added within

3) something is put on the concrete

4) 100mm of insulation is added

5) a layer of concrete ontop

 

Thanks, zoot

Edited May 19, 2019 by zoothorn

[MJNewton]

2 hours ago, zoothorn said:

 

so I need to spend £1.5k on an "architectural consultant" or someone like so, to get a plan

 

It need not necessarily cost that much if it's just a straightforward extension. It cost me £350 for an 'architectural technician' to my plans for permitted development check, detailed drawings for full-plans building control and builder quote, and the engineering calcs for a steel beam and lintel. Whilst I can't help but feel I should've paid more I must assume he doesn't lose money doing these and so must find it easy to knock all this out for so little cost.

[MJNewton]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

Can anyone give me a rough 'overview' of what is between the trenches.. & a floor onto which the walls/ the structure is built?

 

If I were you, and I was not so long ago(!), I'd consider getting a couple of books on the subject as not only do they help answer questions you've got (this/similar forums are also great, often better given the dialogue and peer discussion) but they also help answer questions you didn't know you had too! Two that really helped me were The Construction of Houses and Home Extension Manual:

 

 

 

Both really good bedroom reading, or at least I thought so...!

[Tennentslager]

Dig trench

part fill with concrete and maybe rebar

brickie builds block work to appropriate level

inner leaf for timber frame and depending on look/style outer leaf for brick work

make all nice and flat inside

cover in visqueen and more concrete poured inside 

timber wall plate attached to inner block work and timber frame onto that

 

that is one simple way to describe a straightforward extension with no drainage or other works underneath 

does that help?

[zoothorn]

Hi chaps- took few days off/ just got replies.. thanks.

 

@MJNewton just ordered the Haynes manual off ebay/ great idea that (other one was £35 a bit pricey). Ok good so I have an overview of the groundwork, reminding me of when I worked on a new build albeit when I was 17 or so.

 

Now to the "architectural consultant" (I'll call A.C). What he's done so far, & 1 year+ since last contact, is: 1) come out & chat/ see my sketches [basically its my design], 2) do proper plans > submit for PP, 3) redo smaller plan (non-material ammendment), 4) get bat survey organised (one email sent afaict "another one for you guys".. not meant to have sent to me too afaict..), 4) some calls + an email or two. That's it.

 

He's been good enough not to hassle me since, tho did get a bit annoyed at the time as I was not understanding the general process/ steps (no info out there to help- hardly surprising), & mentioned an approx £1.5 figure when we started.. but what do I do now tho? approach him, or forget it? what if anything else, does he do? should I offer a partial ammount? is he meant to be on board for the duration of build, if so in what capacity? what is a 'project manager'?, do I even need one for a small extention? Q's Q's..

 

You see how totally unable I am to understand what to do, next (apart from a blind guess), in every step.

 

 

[Onoff]

https://bricky.com/

[zoothorn]

I keep looking at all extentions I drive by, for ideas etc (not said 'yes' to this design for 100% definite yet: waiting months for a quote naturally gives you time to think!). One I saw y'day was interesting: ~similar 1st floor room to mine,  timber clad this was, pitched roof & window at end etc. But this has a vacant area below- no room- instead two RSJ supporting uprights at the outer corners. Simple as that.

 

Is this another feasable idea? my thinking is thus: if the weight is put solely on these two corner points (& perhaps two horizontal beams into the side house wall at 1st floor height?).. then surely the beauty of this, is it minimises the footings- no ground floor needed at all. Then, if I went this route & all built & signed off, I could come along afterwards: put a slab floor below > 3 simpler non-cavity timber walls (joining to RSJ uprights & onto side of house) & door for my workshop.. without need to involve Planning.

 

Might this be the best, most cost-effective idea for my 2 rooms I wonder? the thing is the below room, just needs to be a very basic 3-wall affair with some sound insulation, ie a light structure is fine/ I just don't -need- a 2 course cavity affair here. Just a weatherproof 'glorified shed'.

 

 

[PeterW]

59 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

I keep looking at all extentions I drive by, for ideas etc (not said 'yes' to this design for 100% definite yet: waiting months for a quote naturally gives you time to think!). One I saw y'day was interesting: ~similar 1st floor room to mine,  timber clad this was, pitched roof & window at end etc. But this has a vacant area below- no room- instead two RSJ supporting uprights at the outer corners. Simple as that.

 

Is this another feasable idea? my thinking is thus: if the weight is put solely on these two corner points (& perhaps two horizontal beams into the side house wall at 1st floor height?).. then surely the beauty of this, is it minimises the footings- no ground floor needed at all. Then, if I went this route & all built & signed off, I could come along afterwards: put a slab floor below > 3 simpler non-cavity timber walls (joining to RSJ uprights & onto side of house) & door for my workshop.. without need to involve Planning.

 

Might this be the best, most cost-effective idea for my 2 rooms I wonder? the thing is the below room, just needs to be a very basic 3-wall affair with some sound insulation, ie a light structure is fine/ I just don't -need- a 2 course cavity affair here. Just a weatherproof 'glorified shed'.

 

 

 

You seem to be suggesting a floating first floor that structurally and technically would be a nightmare to build as you would need to create a lot of lateral restraint and also complex steel. 

 

I would go for a single timber frame structure that is then clad with a render board and then rendered. Quick, simple and cheap to do. Window in each elevation and one door. 

 

Can you share the plans for this and then can give you an idea of costs / complexity.