The end of the gas hob..??

[PeterW]

Looks like the government want them gone ..

 

https://apple.news/AsILutVF3TuqQAzQYdHfX5Q

[Triassic]

Gas hobs could be banned from being installed in new homes within seven years over fears that they are harming the environment.

Under new plans unveiled on Thursday by climate watchdogs no new homes will be connected to the gas grid after 2025 at the latest, in order for the UK to meet its legally binding climate targets.   

The proposals, from Government’s official climate advisers, would call time on new gas radiators, boilers and cooking hobs.

[Miek]

Now all we need is for the government to have a forward thinking energy policy... 

[newhome]

Will be the end of RHI I imagine if ASHPs etc become mandatory in new builds. 

[Jeremy Harris]

12 minutes ago, newhome said:

Will be the end of RHI I imagine if ASHPs etc become mandatory in new builds. 

 

 

I suspect you'r right, although I doubt that will have much impact, as the RHI for a new build won't be massive.  I believe that the reason for introducing the RHI wasn't related to new builds; it was aimed to incentivise improvements to existing housing stock.  I'm not convinced it has had much in the way of a positive impact, either.  I rather suspect it's been mainly been used to subsidise things like wood stoves and pellet burners, rather than ASHPs.

[ProDave]

1 hour ago, Miek said:

Now all we need is for the government to have a forward thinking energy policy... 

Indeed.

 

So if new homes won't be able to have gas, what will they use instead?

 

Don't tell me those in charge still believe that wood pellet stoves are carbon neutral or environmentally friendly?  If so heaven help us.

 

And if Electricity is to be the new fuel, then  what is going to happen over the next 7 years to improve the capacity?  Turning more homes all electric, and the growth in electric car usage, is going to impose some massive changes to the network, with little sign of much of a plan to deal with that.

 

Or is there another side to this, the fact that North Sea gas is in decline and it's a case of wanting to reduce our dependance on gas so we are not held ransom to imported gas?

[scottishjohn]

well maybe SGN quote for my new gas connection   will not be such a blow after all#

was wanting gas if possible --but the £46,572.52p  was an  Eastenders    "you having a laugh"

 

 

[Miek]

3 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

well maybe SGN quote for my new gas connection   will not be such a blow after all#

was wanting gas if possible --but the £46,572.52p  was an  Eastenders    "you having a laugh"

 

 

I like to see a £40k+ bill to the nearest penny, lol

[ProDave]

11 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

well maybe SGN quote for my new gas connection   will not be such a blow after all#

was wanting gas if possible --but the £46,572.52p  was an  Eastenders    "you having a laugh"

 

 

I certainly would not pay that. That £40K would buy quite a lot of LPG.  Even assuming £1K per year usage that's the next 40 years then.

[scottishjohn]

11 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I certainly would not pay that. That £40K would buy quite a lot of LPG.  Even assuming £1K per year usage that's the next 40 years then.

who would --you could probably buy a  small wind turbine for that 

now there's a thought  !!

half way up a hill facing prevailing winds  

OHH  I can see the protests already 

Edited February 21, 2019 by scottishjohn

[joe90]

I wanted an induction hob for our new build but was over ruled by SWMBO who wanted gas ?

[Big Neil]

how long would i have to fart for with a mate holding a lighter near the exit, to boil a pan of brocolli?

[AliG]

I can't remember if this was already posted, but it looks like they may be banned due to particulates anyway.

 

They are nasty things that I know some people like. We had one in an airbnb, difficult to clean and constantly worried that you would burn yourself. I am all for induction.

 

If houses were well enough insulated, small ASHPs would suffice and you could easily do away with gas. Considering the cost getting gas pipes to a house, putting in a boiler etc it would be a lot more efficient to only use one energy source.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/17/cooking-sunday-roast-causes-indoor-pollution-worse-than-delhi

 

Not sure about toast though, I like mine just barely brown so I think I am OK.

 

As long as they don't ban barbecues!

 

The whole issue of particulates are air quality is interesting. I never had any allergies or asthma until I started to live and work in central London and now I do. I stopped using spray deodorant a few years ago as I realised that every time I used it I was breathing in a cloud of particles. I am quite enjoying the fresh air from MVHR in the new place.

 

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by AliG

[Ferdinand]

3 hours ago, Triassic said:

Gas hobs could be banned from being installed in new homes within seven years over fears that they are harming the environment.

Under new plans unveiled on Thursday by climate watchdogs no new homes will be connected to the gas grid after 2025 at the latest, in order for the UK to meet its legally binding climate targets.   

The proposals, from Government’s official climate advisers, would call time on new gas radiators, boilers and cooking hobs.

 

Um. Colour me sceptical. So far. I would say this is a ‘look at me’ proposal.

 

I cannot find the gascookers thing mentioned in either of those links, nor can I find find out who made the recommendation, and whether they are actually a real government adviser. 

 

Presumably they have have a more greenhouse gas friendly alternative which is practical and cost-effective for all circumstances in which gas cookers are currently used.

 

And they can show that this is better than simply improving Building Standards or renovating some old housing stock properly.

 

And given that that the Minister Claire Perry MP is (in imo) an attention-seeker cum bansturbator given to fairly random public kneejerks / self-indulgent comments / bandwagon jumping and displays a lack of gravity anyway, I would need to see some more information before climbing on board this charabanc.

 

Which hopefully someone has to hand ?.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by Ferdinand

[scottishjohn]

39 minutes ago, AliG said:

The whole issue of particulates are air quality is interesting. I never had any allergies or asthma until I started to live and work in central London and now I do. I stopped using spray deodorant a few years ago as I realised that every time I used it I was breathing in a cloud of particles. I am quite enjoying the fresh air from MVHR in the new place.

this they could have addressed 20 years ago by making all buses and taxi,s etc go to lpg

been running lpg cat D9 dozers +other earth moving equip  in gold and diamond mines is SA for 30years +--

and now ecu tech has advanced its even easier then when we were fitting lpg to volvos 25 years ago 

not as clean as electric --but major improvement on diesel 

I remember when cats were going to become mandatory  1991,but some car makers wanted go clean burn instead

saab  +ford did a test 

put filter on both induction and exhaust of a car fitted with lean burn 

 

guess which was blackest after a day in london traffic

yep  it was the intake filter --not the exhaust --they were cleaning up the air by burning it well

now you have vehicles needing ADD BLUE -and cats that catch particles ,but have to do a regeneration  now and then --which turns particles into CO2+water

so you still get the pollution only later

 

so the solution has been there for 20years+

I know you don,t get round the NOX problem totally with lpg or CNG --but its very good stop gap till electric REALLY becomes vaiable  for all

its all about vested interests ,as always 

Edited February 21, 2019 by scottishjohn

[newhome]

3 hours ago, JSHarris said:

I suspect you'r right, although I doubt that will have much impact, as the RHI for a new build won't be massive.  

 

Large developer built houses built just to meet building regs still attract a large RHI payment. The minute I stick the square metres for my house into the calculator the payment increases hugely. It comes out much less for a house that comes out at the ‘average’ size they have for a 4 bed home. 

[billt]

I like this bit at the end of the BBC story. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-47306766

 

" The chair of the Committee, Lord Deben, is being investigated by the Lords Standards Committee to see if he has breached rules by not declaring income from firms that benefit from pro-active climate policies."

[Ferdinand]

This is the recommendations graphic from the report. It seems to be motherhood and apple pie.

 

20190219-Committee-for-climate-change-Homes-of-the-future-are-needed-today-Infographic-A4-ban-gas-cookers.pdf

 

And the report itself:

 

https://www.theccc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/UK-housing-Fit-for-the-future-CCC-2019.pdf

 

Ferdinand

 

 

[ProDave]

That's a pathetic target to reduce heating needs by 15% by 2030.

 

Compared to our last house, my heating needs have dropped by 75% and compared to the one before more like 90%

[Big Neil]

I sent an Email to Abra-Ca-Debra pancaked back in December just to let them know that on a couple of packets of their pre-made pancakes, they were each missing one. I wasn't really bothered but the customer service lady said she'd send me a voucher. BONUS i thought - free pancakes.

 

I forgot about this and then yesterday had an email saying they were sending out a package by courier, and this morning arrives 5 packets of them plus a couple of bags of the minis.

 

Now I don't generally agree with large scale incentives - after all if you can afford to consider 80 grand on a Tesla you sure as shit don't need to take 4 grand (i know it's different now and it was once even higher) from battered women or abused kids - but if you're going to make people want to buy into a philosophy do what the pancake people did. Well, broadly speaking anyway.

Realise the value of what you want then find a sustainable way to ensure it. In the case of making everything go electric/cutting out gas, bring back reasonable incentives for people installing their own solar/hydro/wind setups. Subsidise the cost of battery backups, etc etc But do it in a sustainable fashion, such as reasonmable assesment of where the resource should be spent.

[AliG]

Subsidies should only really be necessary when the new technology has societal benefits but costs more.

 

Things like solar panels and EVs started with subsidies which got smaller as the cost premium rose.

 

You are right, no one buying a Tesla needs £4k of subsidy, but if everyone creates a spreadsheet of the costs of an EV versus a combustion engined car and the EVs are more expensive, they will never get enough volume for the costs to drop. Don't forget in the case of an EV if it cost more than a similar combustion engined car then you would have paid quite a bit more VAT.

 

Actually the incentives to buy EVs and plug in hybrids as company cars are insane. My architect is getting a Mitsubishi outlander which will save him something like 60% off his company car tax and cut his corporation tax bill and get a free loan from the government. It is a petrol plug in hybrid that may not even have lower emissions most of the time. I think the vast majority of these cars are run as company cars, the tax savings are a scam. I just found a government website that gave a tax saving of £10k over 3 years running an Outlander instead of a Audi A4 with a similar list price. In 3 years the tax difference will rise to £5000 a year. This is the kind of incentive that turns into a scam. For a while everyone in London was buying hybrids Lexuses to avoid the congestion charge for example. These cars have basically the same real world ruled consumption, people are just buying for the tax saving.

 

The key thing is to get the incentive to be enough to incentivise purchase and offset extra costs but not so much that people do it just for the incentive like some of the RHI scams.

 

On the other hand with some things such as insulation or log burners legislation is probably the best idea. Usually I am in favour of less government and regulation but if people are doing something that is bad for society but makes no difference to them then you need to legislate it away. If the data on log burners really is correct they should be banned or controlled. Similarly if people won't built better insulated houses, even though they are incentivised by lower heating bills then you have no choice but to legislate it in the building regs.

 

In my earlier example, why not legislate larger parking spaces. It would makes peoples lives easier and massively reduce the cost of parking dings. I have personally shelled out hundreds of pounds over the years and wasted a lot of time fixing parking dings. The government passes all kinds of waste of time legislation like the term time holiday rules, why not pass some things that help people.

Edited February 21, 2019 by AliG

[Jeremy Harris]

6 minutes ago, AliG said:

In my earlier example, why not legislate larger parking spaces. It wold makes peoples lives easier and massively reduce the cost of parking dings. I have personally shelled out hundreds of pounds over the years and wasted a lot of time fixing parking dings. The government passes all kinds of waste of time legislation like the term time holiday rules, why not pass some things that help people.

 

From the governments point of view, parking dings earn revenue, as people pay to get them fixed, which both creates jobs and gains VAT revenue, so unemployment comes down and the exchequer gains income tax plus VAT. 

 

There's a perverse incentive to make parking spaces smaller, both from government and from car park owners, as smaller spaces = more spaces = more revenue.

[AliG]

14 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

From the governments point of view, parking dings earn revenue, as people pay to get them fixed, which both creates jobs and gains VAT revenue, so unemployment comes down and the exchequer gains income tax plus VAT. 

 

There's a perverse incentive to make parking spaces smaller, both from government and from car park owners, as smaller spaces = more spaces = more revenue.

 

 

This is the old breaking every window in the country and then fixing them makes GDP grow argument.

 

This is why gambling is legal as it generates tax revenues despite creating a lot of misery.

 

Of course if people did not spend money on these things they would probably spend it on something more productive which in the long run would be better for the economy. Breaking then fixing cars is an awful way to spend money, relative to for example spending that money on new more efficient cars.

 

This seems to be beyond the timeframe that politicians work to.

[Temp]

11 hours ago, joe90 said:

I wanted an induction hob for our new build but was over ruled by SWMBO who wanted gas ?

 

No gas in our village but an LPG hob is very practical. A 47kg cylinder lasts us at least 18 months and costs £50-£80. Might be expensive per kWH compared to mains gas but not much in absolute money.

[Markblox]

Just read much of the report and they advocated timber frame where possible, 15-to 20 KWh/M2, basically passive house with MVHR, heat pumps and low temp heating. Basically what many self builders have been doing for the last five years. Also ending the planning loop holes that allow old planning permissions to build to earlier standards, conversions of commercial property into domestic to ignore part L and tighter inspection to ensure as built performance matches designs with greater penalties. 

Much on overheating too and shading etc.

Great report but will it get kicked into the long grass just like Cameron did (most over rated PM for a generation imo).

UK-housing-Fit-for-the-future-CCC-2019.pdf