LA3222 Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 Right, it strikes me there is little information on this forum from self builders who have used SIPs regarding how they found the whole experience. I appreciate a couple of members who used SIPs have got blogs up documenting their self build journey as a whole but im thinking this forum could use a thread specifically about how they found SIPs. The good, the bad, what they would recommend, anything would change. How have they found a SIPs house to live in - would they use SIPs again? I have come full circle now back to SIPs and hearing some members actual experiences rather than anecdotal evidence would be great. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrerahill Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 It wasn't a build of my own, or a project I was directly involved in but one I followed fairly closely via colleagues who were providing engineering services to a site that used SIPs (they had nothing to do with the design or SIP's at all I hasten to add). But on that project I heard 'nightmare', 'never again', and 'why didn't they just let us build this this with 2x6' was being banded about on site every day and the framers who were erecting it hated every minute of it. The general summary was that SIPs have basically no tolerances for even small onsite variations and issues and can lead to some fairly lengthy processes being carried out to make a panel fit after shaving bits or cutting bits and making new joining spines and hot wire cutting the insulation or trying to cut and slice bits out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike2016 Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 One video blog series worth checking out to get some details is purelivingforlive over in the USA on youtube. They built with ICF basement/garage, timber frame on top and SIP to close it up for 1st floor and roof. The SIP work in relation to sealing the roof, hot knifing and fixing details are all covered. They have a LOT of videos so pick wisely but you see how they prep each panel before it's craned into position. They found the first panel each side to be the worst, but once they knew how to trim it to get the best fit they accelerated from there....eye opening... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 What's the difference between SIPs and closed panel timber frame? My house was built using the closed panel system and the panels went together amazingly easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedreamer Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 1 hour ago, newhome said: What's the difference between SIPs and closed panel timber frame? My house was built using the closed panel system and the panels went together amazingly easily. Strictly speaking it is connected to how the load of the house is distributed if it's onto timber than it would be closed panel timber frame if not then probably SIPs. But I don't believe there is much in the way of difference. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 The joiners who erected my house were amazed at how easy it was to erect. Absolutely nothing needed to be trimmed on site. We did get a quote for building using SIPs but it was significantly more expensive than the closed panel TF and the SIPs company had no reference sites for us to go and look at. With the closed panel system the TF company provided us with the details of a house a few miles away being erected using the same system and the builders were more than happy to show us round so that and the price difference won them the order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottishjohn Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 (edited) the difference is in the name. the idea is the same to deliver fully insulated panel system to site SIPS (structural insulated panels system) are skins (osb usually) bonded to foam core, like an ice cream sandwhich , that gives the structural strength to just slot together and thats your house, closed panel --again its in the name - -TF assembly -- but not built on site completed panels ,built in factory . full of insulation skin on both inside and outside and delivered to the site ready to slot together- could even be as big as half a wall in one piece or small as 8x4 --so no crane is needed Edited February 13, 2019 by scottishjohn 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 So this is what I bought. The extra insulation on the outside is optional and takes the U value down from 0.14 to 0.11 so doesn’t form part of the delivered panel. Are you saying that if this had been delivered by a SIPs company it would be called SIPs? I’m wondering why the TF companies don’t use the term SIPs. Is that just a marketing thing, or is there a reason they want to avoid the term? I can see a wood frame in the photo showing the corner detail. Is that relevant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LA3222 Posted February 13, 2019 Author Share Posted February 13, 2019 @Carrerahill that smells like the erection team had no experience of the system. I'd like to think the companies around now either have in house teams or ones which they have used before and are familiar with the system. I don't think that issue is unique to SIPs, regardless of the system, if they are unfamiliar with it then those problems will occur. @mike2016 I don't have any experience of SIPs. Having had a brief look at those videos it seems they have rough sized panels that they are tweaking onsite to fit. Seems a bit strange to me when one of the selling points of SIP is that it is basically a big jigsaw. Precision made off site reay to just slot together. Surely such extensive adjustment would not be required onsite? Generally speaking I would say that the problems highlighted about SIPs on this forum can equally apply to any TF construction method. It would be useful to hear the gen dit from people who have actually used this system. Unfortunately they seem to be scarce on this forum. I'm not a SIPs shill, I'm just after some feedback from the 'horses mouth' so to speak, to give a balanced view. It will help me and no doubt others in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrerahill Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 (edited) 34 minutes ago, newhome said: So this is what I bought. The extra insulation on the outside is optional and takes the U value down from 0.14 to 0.11 so doesn’t form part of the delivered panel. Are you saying that if this had been delivered by a SIPs company it would be called SIPs? I’m wondering why the TF companies don’t use the term SIPs. Is that just a marketing thing, or is there a reason they want to avoid the term? I can see a wood frame in the photo showing the corner detail. Is that relevant? That is not a SIP. A SIP is just OSB/Insulation/OSB. They have connecting "spines" on them and they just push together like jigsaw pieces, no studs. The detail above to me looks like a fairly standard timber frame construction with foam injected between the studs rather than PIR foam cut and installed. A SIP is just a panel construction, these can just be bought as 8x4 panels and you can work them yourself to your build, or a SIP kit company will buy in SIPs and make them relevant to your build or indeed make the SIPs onsite themselves. You can make SIPS at home if you can be bothered. Edited February 13, 2019 by Carrerahill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 You are missing the big difference. What you have @newhome is a timber frame where there are big structural timber members inside that gives the building it's strength. The fact your was supplied with the insulation in and the outsides closed in, does not stop it being a timber frame. A SIP panel has basically just sheets of something like OSB on both faces and insulation in the middle. There are no big structural timber frame members, the strength comes from the 2 skins bonded to the solid insulation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrerahill Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 (edited) I prefer what you have gone for. A good solid timber frame, fully injected with insulation makes for a good fill, no bad cuts and bits missing etc. Edited February 13, 2019 by Carrerahill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tin Soldier Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 I have built a single storey 135m2 extension built using Kingspan Tek Sips It's allowed me to have 4m vaulted ceiling, and loftspace above that's warm and sealed, some interesting angles too It was purchased through THCL, who subcontract the work of erection of the kit out The team of 4 that arrived were incredibly diligent and hardworking, and specialised in this work, so the erection of if went pretty smoothly panels that were delivered onsite were perfect and did not need tweaking, which cannot be said for some of the supporting timber that was supplied wrongly The erection were not happy with the slab that was laid in terms of flatness, and 1 part being slightly askew, but worked around it no problems battening out for plasterboard etc Its nice and toasty happy to answer any specific questions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottishjohn Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Carrerahill said: That is not a SIP. A SIP is just OSB/Insulation/OSB. They have connecting "spines" on them and they just push together like jigsaw pieces, no studs. The detail above to me looks like a fairly standard timber frame construction with foam injected between the studs rather than PIR foam cut and installed. A SIP is just a panel construction, these can just be bought as 8x4 panels and you can work them yourself to your build, or a SIP kit company will buy in SIPs and make them relevant to your build or indeed make the SIPs onsite themselves. You can make SIPS at home if you can be bothered. the top picture looks like the main panel it is a type of SIPs ,but has wooden ends on each panel and therefore a slight cold bridge with the wood a modern sips would just use insulated splines ,so full wrap of insulation in the wall. that is probably why they added extra outer layer of insulation ,so there was no cold bridge caused by big wooden studs. so to all intents it is a sips . but do not think that all closed panel TF builds are done like that cos they are not ,most will use foam that has been cut to size and put into frame ,then another skin added ,but they will not glued to foam ,so it needs structural stud work to get strength - ,both systems will work fine if built correctly and all panels sealed together at build stage , If I was going to use either system I would probably go for sips ,unless there was big price advantage for closed panel,cos you rely on the makers making insulation a tight fit in framing with closed panel - so maybe if not going SIPS I would go open frame kit and make it closed myself with attention to detail of the foam and air tightness both systems need VCL on inside and breathable on outside --so very similar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tin Soldier Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 example of sips panels for part of my roof ready to be lifted on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LA3222 Posted February 19, 2019 Author Share Posted February 19, 2019 On 13/02/2019 at 09:24, Tin Soldier said: I have built a single storey 135m2 extension built using Kingspan Tek Sips It's allowed me to have 4m vaulted ceiling, and loftspace above that's warm and sealed, some interesting angles too It was purchased through THCL, who subcontract the work of erection of the kit out The team of 4 that arrived were incredibly diligent and hardworking, and specialised in this work, so the erection of if went pretty smoothly panels that were delivered onsite were perfect and did not need tweaking, which cannot be said for some of the supporting timber that was supplied wrongly The erection were not happy with the slab that was laid in terms of flatness, and 1 part being slightly askew, but worked around it no problems battening out for plasterboard etc Its nice and toasty happy to answer any specific questions It's useful to see a positive spin on SIPs. How did you deal with the sole plate and insulating it from condensation? The general solution I see mentioned appears to be an insulation skirt wrapping it. If you had to start over would you use SIP again? Are there any things to watch out for when it's being erected? Any tips or such you could give? I'm not committed to SIPs yet, but it is where I'm leaning and unless I learn something which drastically changes my opinion it's what I'll use. It is not the cheapest - but I believe that what it offers is worth that additional initial outlay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oranjeboom Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 2 hours ago, LA3222 said: It's useful to see a positive spin on SIPs. How did you deal with the sole plate and insulating it from condensation? The general solution I see mentioned appears to be an insulation skirt wrapping it. Ahhh, I see you have considered that. Just asked you about that on your other post. Yes, an insulated skirt would be best (EPS rather than PIR) and maybe sit it on marmox blocks. As for erection, I would use experienced installers, not just any joiner/chippy. A few install pics/vids here: The SIP erection was the quickest part of my reno-extension. Lots of hiccups prior and after the install which had nothing to do with the SIPs. Easy to work with and so much easier is the fact that it's all timber so screwing into that when battening out for pb, cladding, doors, windows. Yes, would use SIPs again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LA3222 Posted February 19, 2019 Author Share Posted February 19, 2019 Did you have any push back from the SIP company regarding the sole plate sitting on marmox? One company I'm talking to want a dense block underneath it as a stronger medium for the fixings to go into. Two companies I'm talking to at the minute both say that VCL not necessary, likewise insulating the someplace is not required. I'm on the what harm can it do to implement these things bus! I can do a VCL with the insulation and a perimeter skirt for the sole plate - if not necessary, what harm in doing So? My overall impression is that these companies have been banging SIPs houses up for a long time now, surely if the sole plate was an issue then industry would have worked that out by now? It seems the doubt about it is limited to the self build world - is it really a thing or just FUD? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottishjohn Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=27&v=nv8LGunpYyo wtach the kingpsan tec video all will be clear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LA3222 Posted February 19, 2019 Author Share Posted February 19, 2019 I've already seen that video @scottishjohn but I don't think it really clears things up. The thing I'm trying to understand is the discrepancy between what the manufacturers say regarding sole plates etc and what you read on self build forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 4 hours ago, oranjeboom said: A few install pics/vids here: Is it just me that looks at the use of a ratchet strap as a way of holding a panel to a scaffold pole slightly scary ..??!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 8 minutes ago, PeterW said: Is it just me that looks at the use of a ratchet strap as a way of holding a panel to a scaffold pole slightly scary ..??!! Or these bits (and I have certainly done far worse): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottishjohn Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 1 hour ago, LA3222 said: I've already seen that video @scottishjohn but I don't think it really clears things up. The thing I'm trying to understand is the discrepancy between what the manufacturers say regarding sole plates etc and what you read on self build forums. yes it does it shows 2part sole plate with dpc under it and some sealer as well to stop water tracking inwards If anybody knows the right way --its kingspan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LA3222 Posted February 19, 2019 Author Share Posted February 19, 2019 3 hours ago, scottishjohn said: yes it does it shows 2part sole plate with dpc under it and some sealer as well to stop water tracking inwards If anybody knows the right way --its kingspan That's pretty much the point I'm making - the manufacturers do it one way yet you read self build forums and are left thinking the sole plate is going to rot like the Mary Rose and the house will collapse!! Why the disparity in thinking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadnaught Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 5 minutes ago, LA3222 said: the Mary Rose 500 years isn't too bad going, at least for about half of the ship 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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