Internorm

[Pete]

Just thought I would put this out there as it beggars belief.

 

Our continuing window saga goes on with the exchange of a faulty glass unit from the initial install which had a dropped glazing bar during manufacture and this was evident when you looked out of the window. The reason for the post is when the window was installed it was mean't to have a solar coating to reduce the heat from the sun as it is South facing and I was convinced it was either not working or was put in the wrong way round.

 

Internorm assured me this was not the case and all was correct with the window. I waited for the new glass unit to arrive and made sure it was made to the correct spec from our install and I was assured it would be.

The technical manager with Internorm had assured me that it did not matter which way round the window is put in as the solar coating is on the inside of both exterior panes so it worked regardless of orientation. (Do we have an idea where this is heading.)

The new glass unit was replaced, by a different company as our original Internorm dealer now no longer works with Internorm.

So to put you in the picture, we have 5 South facing windows and the unit that was replaced was part of a sliding door consisting of two units and another window approx two metres away ( all South facing). So when the sun did come out I could put both hands on to a glass unit, each one different but adjacent to one another and you could physically feel the difference between the two surfaces.

 

I contacted the technical manager and he assured me again that there was nothing wrong and it could be the sun bouncing round the room and creating different angles within the room, or the sun was at a different angle to each of the windows and after all it did not matter as the coating is as above.

Time went on and I thought I will purchase some fish tank thermometers and low and behold, I put one on each South facing window including the two on the roof terrace and the four original windows where all within a degree of each other but the replaced glass unit was always reading 8 to 9 degrees higher.

 

I then sent the Internorm technical manager the results of my experiment and he sent me an email back confirming that indeed the glass unit is indeed installed the wrong way round and said he was sorry that the new window company had installed it the wrong way round!!

 

I was absolutely speechless, this is on top of our window installation taking over twelve months and we are still waiting for an outstanding trim to turn up. At no point did the technical manager check the spec on our windows after all the previous correspondence and now he is blaming the new window company.

When I advised this tech manager that I would be seeking compensation he informed me that he did not deal with this side of things and I would need to speak with the area manager who came out to our site back in April to see what all the problems where has now decided to ignore numerous phone calls, voicemails and numerous emails including Whats app messages. 

 

I have sent loads of emails to Internorm over the last twelve months , always including the MD and he has never replied to what has been an absolute shambles of an installation between the installation company and Internorm.

 

Edited December 12, 2018 by recoveringacademic
Formatted to improve readability

[Jeremy Harris]

You have to wonder about the level of knowledge of someone like this.  Not only is it very common knowledge that coated glass units must be fitted the right way around, practically evrey manufacturer puts a label on the glazing stating clearly which side faces in and which out.  All these labels were still on our windows when they were fitted.

 

The last job before I retired (in 2010) included coated glazing units, and roughly 50% of them were installed the wrong way around.  As there was a large facade with around 50 odd windows in it you could tell just by looking from outside that roughly half were the wrong way around, as they look a different colour when the sun shined on them.  In that case it was an Eastern European workforce who didn't read the English labels on the glazing.  Cost a lot to put right, though.

[Pete]

5 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

You have to wonder about the level of knowledge of someone like this.  Not only is it very common knowledge that coated glass units must be fitted the right way around, practically evrey manufacturer puts a label on the glazing stating clearly which side faces in and which out.  All these labels were still on our windows when they were fitted.

 

The last job before I retired (in 2010) included coated glazing units, and roughly 50% of them were installed the wrong way around.  As there was a large facade with around 50 odd windows in it you could tell just by looking from outside that roughly half were the wrong way around, as they look a different colour when the sun shined on them.  In that case it was an Eastern European workforce who didn't read the English labels on the glazing.  Cost a lot to put right, though.

I forgot to mention that I took photos from the outside and you could see the difference in the colours when comparing them but this did nothing to say that it was fitted the wrong way round. Grrrrrrrr ?

[Mr Punter]

I imagine the fitters are not used to installing glazing units - probably almost always install factory glazed windows and doors.

[Pete]

23 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

I imagine the fitters are not used to installing glazing units - probably almost always install factory glazed windows and doors.

With it being the fixed  part of the sliding door it was left unglazed as the sliding door was pre-glazed and the weight would have been substantial. Each glass unit weighed about 270kg.

[Adam2]

Wow @Pete that's incredible. I've been getting quotes for a lot of glazing recently (including one from an Internorm distributor) and hadn't crossed my mind before that this could go so badly wrong - something to add to the risk list! Really hope you get a decent resolution but feels a way off.

[Mr Punter]

Windows are a frequent issue and annoying as they are on the critical path for construction.  Specification and window schedules, delivery, unloading and distribution around site, installation, weathertightness and correct operation can all go horribly wrong, especially where the windows are large and made overseas.

[Pete]

1 hour ago, Adam2 said:

Wow @Pete that's incredible. I've been getting quotes for a lot of glazing recently (including one from an Internorm distributor) and hadn't crossed my mind before that this could go so badly wrong - something to add to the risk list! Really hope you get a decent resolution but feels a way off.

You really need to do your homework before choosing a supplier as well as the fitting company. I am glad I have been on site at all times as the amount of things that need correcting would have been a lot more. I will say the Internorm product is fantastic but the people behind it leave a lot to be desired and that is a polite way of putting it.

 

 

[Pete]

4 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

Windows are a frequent issue and annoying as they are on the critical path for construction.  Specification and window schedules, delivery, unloading and distribution around site, installation, weathertightness and correct operation can all go horribly wrong, especially where the windows are large and made overseas.

Tell me about it. Sorry would have made things more bearable but not even had that from Internorm

[Sue B]

On our last build, we had blinds built into the double glazed units.  

They were ordered with no problems.

Paid for with no problems

They arrived without the blinds.

 

I spoke with the supplier who accepted the error and said to fit the windows as they were and the new glazing units would be sent within the week.

 

I questioned whether the glazing would fit,  twice,  and was assured everything would be fine.  The double glazed units are deeper if they have the blind in of course.

 

Glazing units duly arrive and don’t fit.

 

Window supplier, egg on face, come out and rectify.

 

Luckily this was a local company that could move quickly to fix things but the absolute assurance that they were correct and that I was a mad woman who knew nothing was staggering.

 

Edited December 13, 2018 by Sue B
Autocorrect fail

[Pete]

Just an update on our Internorm window debacle. Opened door this morning to a driver trying to deliver our outstanding window trim on the back of an articulated lorry in a really small village without notice of their impending arrival. This trim measures 5.3 metres in length, 30mm high and approx 5mm thick and is made of aluminium so is really slight and was missing from the original order. We have already had damaged items from Internorm during our experience of dealing with Internorm and they do not seem learn from their mistakes. The trim was attached to a piece of wood, 75mm x 10mm to provide some support and then wrapped in bubble wrap. Now when I first saw the item in question I was thinking that looks flimsy and only hope that they have taken great care of it due to our nightmare installation so far. I opened the wrapping and guess what, it was damaged. (Loud scream and the wish to take my frustration out on something/someone.) There was no way that this item was not going to get damaged as you would have to pick this item up and hold it vertically to at least prevent it flexing along its length and that is assuming you knew what was inside the bubble warp, which is exactly what happened in that somebody has picked up the trim and it has snapped the wooden support where it was finger jointed.

I immediately contacted  Internorm and they say they will order another one and will try and get it here asap but we have been down this route before and it has always taken 10/12 weeks to alter or replace items. The problem is further compounded by the fact the Internorm dealer that we placed the order with is no longer having anything to do with Internorm after they have finished all outstanding Internorm installations and Internorm are being very difficult to deal with (Dealer's words not mine) now that they are aware of the situation.

And so the saga continues.?

[Dudda]

Just to note as I've now put Internorm windows in a few projects and want to say that Internorm don't make aluminium trims and don't install windows.

 

The way it works is you've the company Internorm in Austria who make the windows. They don't install windows or deal with clients or builders. They barely deal with architects like myself and only through an online portal you can ask questions and get drawings and data.

 

You have window installers or dealers who can order Internorm windows which Internorm then make in Austria and deliver to the the location requested. The window installer or dealer then installs the window. If the window is measured wrong by the installer it's not Internorms fault. If the installer or dealer orders the wrong item it's not Internorms fault. All glass is put into the frames in the factory except very large pieces due to weight restrictions. If these glass units are installed back to front, etc in the frame on site it's the installers fault not internorms. Internorm don't make aluminium trims or cills. These are usually made by the window installer or they get someone to make them on their behalf. This is why I always get a sample window trim made as it's usually made locally and they don't come from Austria.

 

Now what you can find is an Internorm 1st window partner. This is a window installer who Internorm has worked with and approved. Very few of these exist but are worth looking out for and are usually better than a dealer.

 

You're constantly blaming Internorm and the windows but from reading this thread all the issues are with the window installer with possibly the exception of a dropped glazing bar however I expect this occurred during transport or installation. Internorm won' t say sorry as they never talk to clients. It's the window installer or dealer who you talk to and deal with who needs to apologise.

 

I want to clarify this as I've to deal with the Internorm installers and fix problems. I double check all the window installer measurements and sign off on them before allowing them to be sent to Internorm and try and fix most problems at this stage where most issues occur and can take the longest to fix if new windows need to be ordered. With all windows 99% of the window issues I come across are with the installers and not the windows themselves.

[Alexphd1]

"@Pete we used another Austrian manufacturer and our story sounds V similar!.... 12 months, stuff arriving wrong, glass in wrong way etc   Luckily local distributor stood good and sorted the problems. 

[Pete]

1 hour ago, Dudda said:

Just to note as I've now put Internorm windows in a few projects and want to say that Internorm don't make aluminium trims and don't install windows.

 

The way it works is you've the company Internorm in Austria who make the windows. They don't install windows or deal with clients or builders. They barely deal with architects like myself and only through an online portal you can ask questions and get drawings and data.

 

You have window installers or dealers who can order Internorm windows which Internorm then make in Austria and deliver to the the location requested. The window installer or dealer then installs the window. If the window is measured wrong by the installer it's not Internorms fault. If the installer or dealer orders the wrong item it's not Internorms fault. All glass is put into the frames in the factory except very large pieces due to weight restrictions. If these glass units are installed back to front, etc in the frame on site it's the installers fault not internorms. Internorm don't make aluminium trims or cills. These are usually made by the window installer or they get someone to make them on their behalf. This is why I always get a sample window trim made as it's usually made locally and they don't come from Austria.

 

Now what you can find is an Internorm 1st window partner. This is a window installer who Internorm has worked with and approved. Very few of these exist but are worth looking out for and are usually better than a dealer.

 

You're constantly blaming Internorm and the windows but from reading this thread all the issues are with the window installer with possibly the exception of a dropped glazing bar however I expect this occurred during transport or installation. Internorm won' t say sorry as they never talk to clients. It's the window installer or dealer who you talk to and deal with who needs to apologise.

 

I want to clarify this as I've to deal with the Internorm installers and fix problems. I double check all the window installer measurements and sign off on them before allowing them to be sent to Internorm and try and fix most problems at this stage where most issues occur and can take the longest to fix if new windows need to be ordered. With all windows 99% of the window issues I come across are with the installers and not the windows themselves.

First of all thank you for your comments and with the interests of keeping things civil I would like to say you seem to know a lot more about my window installation than I do, it seems!

I think the trim you are refering to is a window cill or bottom as some people call it. I am refering to a TRIM, am aluminium TRIM that fits above the opening of the two sets of sliding doors that have been joined together to form a large opening. This TRIM covers the Spruce wood of the frames and covers the joining of the two frames and has been powder coated the same as the rest of the exterior of the sliding doors so if you think this is the installers fault, who as it happens have not been here today when the damaged TRIM was delivered and has not been touched by them, I find it hard to think how they can be blamed for this part of my installation.

The dropped glazing bar should have picked up on quality control and if you think it would drop in transit then who am I to question your knowledge although I find it hard to believe they move when you see how they have been stuck in position. 

I had glass units that had scratches all over them because they had not been adequately separated from each other in transit, yet again I struggle to comprehend how the installer should be blamed for this fault.

I had another aluminium TRIM, that joins the faulty TRIM that arrived today that has already been replaced as that also arrived damaged from the initial delivery back in January , kinked in exactly the same way.

My large aluminium corner post looked like it had come via Syria and this had to replaced, same thing again, it was just bubble wrapped and left to roll around the back of an articulated lorry. I know your response to this one will be to blame the delivery people but as it turns out they are the company that Internorm use all the time so I will not bother telling you who they are as you are quite knowledgeable with the Internorm product.

When we had the initial delivery we had missing items as well and it took Internorm ages to accept responsibility. All they kept saying was you need to follow protocol and provide evidence. I still do not know how to provide evidence of a missing item in a photograph. 

I know the installation company are to blame for a lot of our issues but believe you me Internorm have a lot to answer as well. 

You would feel different if this your own installation and not one of your clients. I have spoken to many people regarding our issues and I although I agree to a certain extent to some of what you are saying, I also could tell you some nightmares that I have been informed of regarding mistakes from Internorm as I have been dealing with different installers on our build and as you say Internorm never say sorry.

I will not name people on here but I have had a kind of "sorry" from an Internorm individual who is highly respected at Internorm. I have had to deal with Internorm directly as my installation has been so poor and I am project managing it myself. Due to the fact my window installation company are no longer dealing with Internorm and I would like my windows completed in 2019 as 2018 was a complete disaster for us then I have had to get involved a lot more than most. Anyway I think the majority of people on here would do no different as the amount of mistakes has been appalling in our eyes for such an expensive product.

I am sorry for my rant but please do not make matters any worse for us when you do not know the full story. 

 

 

[mvincentd]

@Dudda they have a consumer oriented website saying “Our windows and entrance doors are exclusively available via our Internorm distribution partners. They are complete professionals and can guarantee you all-round service: excellent advice, clear quotes, clean installation and there for you long after your purchase if you have any questions.” ...under a heading saying “all round service instead of anonymous online purchase”.

 

they advertise heavily in selfbuild mags.  So I’d assume it’s reasonable to contact a supplier and ask him to get and fit some windows....according to internorm the supplier can only obtain the windows if internorm approved.

 

so why isn’t it reasonable to expect internorm to take responsibility for their suppliers when they cock up?

[Russell griffiths]

Don’t understand how they are still in business, certainly a company I won’t be phoning. 

[Barney12]

5 hours ago, Dudda said:

You're constantly blaming Internorm and the windows but from reading this thread all the issues are with the window installer with possibly the exception of a dropped glazing bar however I expect this occurred during transport or installation. Internorm won' t say sorry as they never talk to clients. It's the window installer or dealer who you talk to and deal with who needs to apologise.

 

Im sorry but this is just wrong. Internorm CHOOSE to supply their windows through distribution. Thus they are absolutely at fault. If Internorm think that they can simply shirk all responsibility for the quality of their product and installation by blaming distribution then they are wrong. 

 

I too (like many) have suffered (and still have unresolved issues) from the Internorm experience and yes before you say it they were indeed a supposed  “first window partner” or whatever the marketing rubbish that they hide behind. 

 

Buyer beware! 

Edited January 11, 2019 by Barney12

[craig]

As a retailer I assure you, things that should be picked up in quality control are not. 

 

Things that shouldn’t happen such as glass designs on entrance doors, shouldn’t happen but they do and have.

 

Installers with “experience” can also let you down badly or new teams brought in and are not what you think they are.

 

Issues with installation will also occur and retailers are not exempt from making mistakes. You can plan everything in and have everything organised (you think) but one oversight can cause untold heartache for the retailer/supplier but more so the client.

 

We (retailers) are not perfect and whether you rely on sub contract teams or in house teams, you can still be let down badly.

 

The biggest issue is the timescales and when the factory do get things wrong, it’s generally put through the system again and standard timescales. They don’t tend to work with “high priority” because of errors.

 

Generally speaking, trims are usually supplied from the manufacturer and should be in the order. Internorms ordering/quotation system “used to” require a hell of a lot of manual input for every aspect resulting in human error. Some things can be left out or behind in the quotation/order process/packaging. 

 

Window cills are usually ordered from one company in the UK when dealing with Internorm. They also supply trims/flashings and custom flashings to wrap corner posts etc.

 

Other suppliers will order these from Germany/Austria or both.

 

1st window partner basically means approved by Internorm and have gone through the 1st window partner customer care program. All Internorm retailers are approved or they wouldn’t be able to retail the product. 

 

Bottom line, the manufacturers are not saints and it’s not always the retailer. I’ve had many a heated discussion with the factory. I’ve also had many an earful from clients (and rightly so) because we have been at fault.

 

It’s how the retailers deal with things, we might not be fast and outwith our control but standing firm and taken ownership is what it’s about and not walking away (whether you still retail for them of not) speaks volumes in my view.

Edited January 11, 2019 by craig

[Pete]

Found a leak the other day and started to think what have I missed and that the render may have to come off to rectify. Upon further investigation it looks like the sealant that is used to seal the glass units in place has failed and is allowing water to get behind the aluclad exterior frame (I hope). So only another fault with our Internorm installation which is definitely the installation teams fault.

[vivienz]

I can only hope that all things window start to improve for you this year.  Awful.

[Pete]

Well I feel like Jeremy and Barney with the SA only mine is windows. So the replacement trim to replace the damaged arrived today. I have sent emails reminding them of the previous fiasco and to ensure it is packaged carefully. So it arrived (can you feel that this is not going to go well) and not only was it damaged but the wrong trim. They sent an anodised one which  covers the sill section, which we already have and not the top trim. It measures approx 5.5 metres long by 150mm wide long and it was just bubble wrapped. It was not even strapped to a piece of wood to give it some support. This now means we still cannot finish the render due to this trim needing to be in place and god only knows how long it will be before we try for a third trim. We are now nearly at 18 months for our window install. Avoid Internorm at all costs. 

[Adam2]

Infuriating. Did you look at getting this trim made yourself? - can't help but think that is your easiest way to get what you need. Not nice having to do that but not being able to progress for many more weeks with no guarantee of success seems worse than sourcing this direct

[The Sweeny]

On 11/01/2019 at 16:14, Dudda said:

Just to note as I've now put Internorm windows in a few projects and want to say that Internorm don't make aluminium trims and don't install windows.

 

The way it works is you've the company Internorm in Austria who make the windows. They don't install windows or deal with clients or builders. They barely deal with architects like myself and only through an online portal you can ask questions and get drawings and data.

 

You have window installers or dealers who can order Internorm windows which Internorm then make in Austria and deliver to the the location requested. The window installer or dealer then installs the window. If the window is measured wrong by the installer it's not Internorms fault. If the installer or dealer orders the wrong item it's not Internorms fault. All glass is put into the frames in the factory except very large pieces due to weight restrictions. If these glass units are installed back to front, etc in the frame on site it's the installers fault not internorms. Internorm don't make aluminium trims or cills. These are usually made by the window installer or they get someone to make them on their behalf. This is why I always get a sample window trim made as it's usually made locally and they don't come from Austria.

 

Now what you can find is an Internorm 1st window partner. This is a window installer who Internorm has worked with and approved. Very few of these exist but are worth looking out for and are usually better than a dealer.

 

You're constantly blaming Internorm and the windows but from reading this thread all the issues are with the window installer with possibly the exception of a dropped glazing bar however I expect this occurred during transport or installation. Internorm won' t say sorry as they never talk to clients. It's the window installer or dealer who you talk to and deal with who needs to apologise.

 

I want to clarify this as I've to deal with the Internorm installers and fix problems. I double check all the window installer measurements and sign off on them before allowing them to be sent to Internorm and try and fix most problems at this stage where most issues occur and can take the longest to fix if new windows need to be ordered. With all windows 99% of the window issues I come across are with the installers and not the windows themselves.

 

[The Sweeny]

I'm looking at Internorm windows and have to say many of the approved installers seem to have bad reviews. I've encountered unnecessary obstacles  just getting to view the products at the showroom never mind ordering and installation. OH is keen on Internorm but I'm worried the installer will do a poor job/bad service. 

 

So with this in mind what installers are recommended? All those local to me get bad reviews. I want to avoid the accident waiting to happen.

[craig]

18 hours ago, The Sweeny said:

o with this in mind what installers are recommended? All those local to me get bad reviews.

 

Where are you based?