No deal Brexit impact

[ToughButterCup]

This thread is repleat with generalisation and logical fallacy. And hints of irritation, point scoring  and sometimes offence given or taken.

 

It might be a good idea to try our hands at summarising the arguments put by those arguing the case opposite  to the one you favour. 

Yes, its hard work. But more useful than skim reading a post and reacting to the small bit of it that gives offence when none was intended.

 

 

[jack]

2 hours ago, LA3222 said:

Bit of a broad sweeping assumption/slur  there about English people (all the more surprising considering you objected to derogatory terms being used in an earlier post). 

 

The post you quoted referred to the UK/England, which are political bodies, not people. It also didn't use derogatory language.

[LA3222]

44 minutes ago, jack said:

 

The post you quoted referred to the UK/England, which are political bodies, not people. It also didn't use derogatory language.

I think we're playing with words here Jack. The post did indeed refer to a country, but if we follow this to the root, the country is the people. The people elect the Legislature whom enact the will of the people and are therefore a direct representation of the public (the percentage that voted for them).

 

So if we follow through what you state: England --> Legislature (Political body if you prefer) --> Voting Public

 

To say that the post was referring to a Political body and not English people is a fallacy and as far as not using derogatory language, I'm pretty sure the meaning (maybe not the intent) was both critical and disrespectful - hence derogatory.

 

I'm not bothered by it by any means, I was merely making a point that you can't have your cake and eat it.

[LA3222]

2 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

This thread is repleat with generalisation and logical fallacy. And hints of irritation, point scoring  and sometimes offence given or taken.

 

It might be a good idea to try our hands at summarising the arguments put by those arguing the case opposite  to the one you favour. 

Yes, its hard work. But more useful than skim reading a post and reacting to the small bit of it that gives offence when none was intended.

 

 

I'd say this is pointless as most people tend to be entrenched in their views. Politics is just one of those areas that is highly polarising and the last ten years have been particularly so - I can't recall a time when tensions have been so high among the population. Brexit and IndyRef2 are constantly just simmering away, then throw in Black Lives matters,  climate change protestors and Covid, financial crashes, it's mad when you think about it - there are so many issues with the country at the minute.

 

The easier thing to do would be not to have threads like this, its far too easy to get sucked into arguing and let's face it, debating politics over an internet forum is a futile endeavour - I'm as guilty as the next man for getting sucked in when what I should really be doing is designing my plumbing layout!!!

Edited December 9, 2020 by LA3222

[Bitpipe]

33 minutes ago, LA3222 said:

I think we're playing with words here Jack. The post did indeed refer to a country, but if we follow this to the root, the country is the people. The people elect the Legislature whom enact the will of the people and are therefore a direct representation of the public (the percentage that voted for them).

 

So if we follow through what you state: England --> Legislature (Political body if you prefer) --> Voting Public

 

To say that the post was referring to a Political body and not English people is a fallacy and as far as not using derogatory language, I'm pretty sure the meaning (maybe not the intent) was both critical and disrespectful - hence derogatory.

 

I'm not bothered by it by any means, I was merely making a point that you can't have your cake and eat it.

 

As I said in the original post, no criticism was intended but it is an observation that I've seen made across international media and it seems to resonate with others here.

 

Who says it's a bad thing? We've seen America exhibit the same characteristic (albeit in a less subtle fashion with the current administration).

 

So no offence intended and apologies if you took such offence from my post.

[jack]

42 minutes ago, LA3222 said:

I think we're playing with words here Jack.

 

I couldn't disagree more. 

[LA3222]

5 minutes ago, jack said:

 

I couldn't disagree more. 

?

[ToughButterCup]

55 minutes ago, LA3222 said:

I think we're playing with words here Jack.....

 

I am optimistic. Words matter. How they are used, when they are used and in which context matter even more. Look across the pond.

As I see it a small shift in your position - an explanation to @jack to show how you think he was playing with words would be helpful.

46 minutes ago, LA3222 said:

I'd say this ( summarising opponents' views) is pointless as most people tend to be entrenched in their views....

 

It is never pointless to make an effort: I suspect though that you are right - most won't make an effort unless there's a pay off.

And since in this case the payoff takes place in someones head - unseen by anyone except the person who makes the effort. But I don't want a society where all anyone does is to compete for the visibility of their own ideas. Look across the pond again. 

 

That horror - visible on a daily basis - is where lack of mental effort gets us. I don't want it on this side of the pond.

[Temp]

BBC News covered the port crisis tonight. Only a day after you read about it here first ?

 

They mentioned some building materials  had been offloaded in Roterdam because ships didn't want to wait for access to Felixstowe.

[Temp]

Tesco said today that no-deal taxes would push up the price of some French cheese like brie by 40%. They say it might persuade us to eat more Cheddar but I think quite a bit of that comes from Ireland. Apparently  the Irish have been stockpiling cheese in the UK in case of a no deal Brexit.

 

Tesco have also said they expect food bills to be 5% higher 8f there is no deal.

[PeterW]

More reason to eat the really good Somerset Brie then ..! None of rhe supermarkets are going to need any excuses to put prices up. 

[Onoff]

7 hours ago, Temp said:

eat more Cheddar

 

Well just have to gorge on that then.

[Onoff]

I still wonder if a concerted drive to more public self sufficiency in terms of "grow your own': allotments, teaching of such in schools, youth projects etc maybe even extending to small scale poultry keeping could offset imports.

 

I grew up in a modest semi with a 100' garden devoted to growing veg by my father. Maybe it was because he'd grown up during WW2. Veg en masse was grown and a lot pickled / made into chutney. The only jam we had was from gathered wild fruit. Sounds idyllic and all a bit Famous Five but I bet it saved a few quid. Of course it would mean a paradigm shift away from social media to gain the time required to undertake such tasks. "We're all too busy now" my ar$e!

 

It'll sound sexist now but girls back then were taught to sew and cook. FFS I'd rather my daughter (and the boys) were taught that than the twice a day waste that is "form time", then we have PHSE and citizenship. Much easier to order on line and have food delivered! Added to that this reliance on / the takeaway culture just fuels illegal immigration. 

 

Aka a wartime spirit ✌️

[SteamyTea]

37 minutes ago, Onoff said:

maybe even extending to small scale poultry keeping could offset imports.

The UK can be self sufficient in food, not a problem usually.  Choice would be limited, some years there would be over production, and some years under production.

There is also a foods safety issue.  Many houses have been built on ex industrial land.  Though it should have been cleaned up, this will not always have happened, then think of avian flu, swine fever and other commutable diseases.

The reason we have a global supply chain in agriculture is because it is more efficient.

44 minutes ago, Onoff said:

a wartime spirit

Who are we fighting?  Ourselves?

[Ferdinand]

3 hours ago, Onoff said:

FFS I'd rather my daughter (and the boys) were taught that 

 

 

When do you start?

[Ferdinand]

3 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

The UK can be self sufficient in food, not a problem usually.  Choice would be limited, some years there would be over production, and some years under production.

There is also a foods safety issue.  Many houses have been built on ex industrial land.  Though it should have been cleaned up, this will not always have happened, then think of avian flu, swine fever and other commutable diseases.

The reason we have a global supply chain in agriculture is because it is more efficient.

 

 

An interesting case is the Netherlands, where there has been quite a lot of reporting in the Ag trade press about them being sustainable / self-sufficient. Teh climate is not too different.

 

Their pop density is as high as hours, and it is partly via greenhouses (think Thanet Earth). I think we can go that way much more here.

 

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2017/09/holland-agriculture-sustainable-farming/

 

On safety - I'd say quite a lot more people are using raised beds now, which sidesteps a lot of it.

 

 

[SteamyTea]

@Ferdinand

You are good at ferreting out data.  Can you finds out how much land in the UK is used for horticulture, and compare that with arable and livestock.

Edited December 10, 2020 by SteamyTea

[Ferdinand]

24 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

@Ferdinand

You are good at ferreting out data.  Can you finds out how much land in the UK is used for horticulture, and compare that with arable and livestock.

 

"The agricultural area used is 23.07 million acres (9.34 million hectares), about 70% of the land area of the England. 36% of the agricultural land is croppable (arable), or 25% of the total land area. Most of the rest is grassland, rough grazing, or woodland."

 

Pastoral roughly 17 million Ha. 

Arable roughly 4.75 million Ha.

Horticultural roughly 0.175 million Ha.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/208436/auk-2012-25jun13.pdf

 

2012 numbers but probably good enough.

 

On Thanet Earth (91 hectares):

"It is the largest greenhouse complex in the UK, covering 90 hectares, or 220 acres (0.89 km²) of land.^[1] The glasshouses produce approximately 400 million tomatoes, 24 million peppers and 30 million cucumbers a year, equal to roughly 12, 11 and 8 per cent respectively of Britain’s entire annual production of those salad ingredients."

 

Note it says production not consumption.

[ToughButterCup]

4 hours ago, Onoff said:

...

It'll sound sexist now but girls back then were taught to sew and cook. FFS I'd rather my daughter ... were taught that than

...

 

Excellent idea to foster those skills at home....  You could start by showing her how to darn your socks like you used to in the war. ?

[Onoff]

2 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

 

Excellent idea to foster those skills at home....  You could start by showing her how to darn your socks like you used to in the war. ?

 

Don't knock it, their feet are smaller so they can get nearer to kitchen appliances. Can't fight biology!

[SteamyTea]

18 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

Horticultural roughly 0.175 million Ha.

Not as much as I thought, but then I tend to see a lot of it down here, so that clouds thinking.

19 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

It is the largest greenhouse complex in the UK, covering 90 hectares

Dividing one by the other, then multiplying by those gives a 2000 fold increase.

[scottishjohn]

21 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

 

"The agricultural area used is 23.07 million acres (9.34 million hectares), about 70% of the land area of the England. 36% of the agricultural land is croppable (arable), or 25% of the total land area. Most of the rest is grassland, rough grazing, or woodland."

 

Pastoral roughly 17 million Ha. 

Arable roughly 4.75 million Ha.

Horticultural roughly 0.175 million Ha.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/208436/auk-2012-25jun13.pdf

 

2012 numbers but probably good enough.

 

On Thanet Earth (91 hectares):

"It is the largest greenhouse complex in the UK, covering 90 hectares, or 220 acres (0.89 km²) of land.^[1] The glasshouses produce approximately 400 million tomatoes, 24 million peppers and 30 million cucumbers a year, equal to roughly 12, 11 and 8 per cent respectively of Britain’s entire annual production of those salad ingredients."

 

Note it says production not consumption.

now if you talking big green houses like above -then the ground they are on can be the worst sort of land as they do not plant in the ground --just needs to be flat  to errect the green house 

I got  30 acres  to start with on my jetty -that could be used for green houses no problem --

 

[Ferdinand]

10 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

now if you talking big green houses like above -then the ground they are on can be the worst sort of land as they do not plant in the ground --just needs to be flat  to errect the green house 

I got  30 acres  to start with on my jetty -that could be used for green houses no problem --

 

 

One reason they put it in Thanet is the light level - apparently here in the Midlands I get 20% less.

For your area you would presumably benefit from the West Coast mcroclimate, but would need to think about light and perhaps heat.

 

But there's certainly potential here imo.

 

I do not know the Dutch climate though.

[Ralph]

I think people tend underestimate the work it takes grow some of your own veg never mind be close to self sufficient. As for meat I butchered my first deer this year and it gave me new found respect for the skill and effort trained butchers put in.

[Ferdinand]

16 minutes ago, Ralph said:

I think people tend underestimate the work it takes grow some of your own veg never mind be close to self sufficient. As for meat I butchered my first deer this year and it gave me new found respect for the skill and effort trained butchers put in.

 

I planted my Christmas microveg at the weekend. ?