No deal Brexit impact

[Bitpipe]

13 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

There must be a Limerick there.

 

 

There once was a fellow called Vine

He liked to broadcast, time to time

His deepest wish

Was to let Brits fish

But the EU got him hook, sinker and line

[SteamyTea]

Jeremy Vine, was just so fine

Fished every day with his line

He spun it along, while all hope was gone

But claimed that the fish were mine

[LA3222]

As entertaining as it is arguing about black and white it I think it is ultimately futile. Apparently debate is healthy, however I think it is ultimately futile as the vast majority of people tend to be entrenched in their views and no amount of debate can change that. With that in mind, the only people ever worth bothering with in Politics etc are the small number of 'undecided' - this small minority are the only ones with any power as it is them who 'swing' votes one way or t'other.

 

I think the vast majority of voters are 'dumb', not in the sense they are stupid, they just blindly vote the way they always have or how their family has.  The Labour party represent this in a way, their connection to working class roots has long since waned yet they are viewed as the party of the working class. The irony that a party of millionaires (as a lot of politicians are) 'represent' the working class!

 

This is all a bit off tangent but I maybe we should look to engage/educate/encourage children from as young an age as possible by introducing this into the curriculum? to help future generations actively engage in how the country is governed, why, etc. I also think the media should be governed by a code of some description of how there correspondence is reported, they have far too much sway with their punchy, crass headlines which appeal to the baser instincts of human nature. The biggest issue in all of this is the lies that politicians peddle, surely they should be legally obligated to accurately present their arguments/manifestos. Not a single one of them is honest and how can they be. If Bill and Mary are peddling lies about your ideas and false promises with their own, the only way you can 'win' voters is to play the same game - being 'honest' would be the death knell for your political ambitions.

 

[jamieled]

@LA3222 couldn't agree more. There is a current line of thinking that the vast increase in access to information over the last couple of decades has not been accompanied by an increase in the ability to critically analyse the source and veracity of it. Although even if these skills did exist I'd question to what extent they'd be employed - most of us exist in bubbles and reasoned debate, with an ability to alter opinions based on evidence is a rarity. 

There are good reasons to think that our political system needs a complete overhaul - if you haven't read it then 'Why we get the wrong politicans' covers some interesting points.

[Pocster]

“Without an economy you have nothing “

 

Someone said this once . It’s true . Because stuff your economy and all the other things get knackered also .

The problem with brexit which people forget is what they were promised . Money for nhs , easy trade deals , keep the immigrants out - take back control !! Hurrah !

Sounds amazing ! - reality is a bitch .

We had a half way deal by being in the EU . Not perfect by any means . But our economy has grown by being in the EU ; cheap Labour , London’s access to EU financial markets etc etc 

Equally the EU doesn’t ‘get’ what the U.K. wants . The only phrase left to chirp is ‘ sovereignty ‘ . Not sure exactly what that is . Will the US or China roll over for us - no . Far bigger economies than ours . Unfortunately we were part of the largest trading block on the planet .

Whilst you can argue quite reasonably about dumb EU rules on bananas and fishing etc. - the bigger picture is what we need to look at .

Public were largely sold a lie - now government has to deliver some half baked mess that makes no one happy .

 

Sensible hat off - screw up some pipework hat on .

 

[SteamyTea]

21 minutes ago, pocster said:

The problem with brexit which people forget is what they were promised

No one likes to admit they have been suckered.  What amazes me is that half the coverage was pointing this out to them.

 

I think, that all Brexiteer should be forced to go to work in the bright new future they have created, while the rest of us (the majority) can live off the generous state benefits that immigrants allegedly claim when they get here.

Won't take long selling fish and Toyota to pay for it all, will it.

Seems fair to me.

Edited December 8, 2020 by SteamyTea

[epsilonGreedy]

2 hours ago, LA3222 said:

I also think the media should be governed by a code of some description of how there correspondence is reported, they have far too much sway with their punchy, crass headlines which appeal to the baser instincts of human nature.

 

 

A country gets the papers and media it deserves. The media serves up that the nation wants to hear about the present. It is a symbiotic relationship. LIkewise the function of historians to reaffirm what a culture wants to believe out its past.

 

While you identify genuine current problems it is very dangerous to try and legislate to enforce media honesty, the Soviets tried that.

 

2 hours ago, LA3222 said:

This is all a bit off tangent but I maybe we should look to engage/educate/encourage children from as young an age as possible by introducing this into the curriculum? to help future generations actively engage in how the country is governed, why, etc.

 

 

Who defines the contents of this new element to the curriculum? That will end up being a politically biased process. Current attempts to educate children about their culture are highly troubling because this is infused with woke left wing identity politics. One credible attempt to correct this trend by a single teacher Eton resulted in his censure by the authorities, all because he encouraged children to consider if male & female human traits were influenced by both culture and genetics.

Edited December 8, 2020 by epsilonGreedy

[daiking]

I never understood how the usual crowd of performing seals could clap for the austerity loving EU but harangue British austerity, nor how they could wail about British Oo-man rights abuses whilst cheering the EU cosying up to Russia, China, Iran...

 

I think someone on here once tried to tell me that they're not perfect but they're better than what we have. Thats utter bullshit. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by daiking

[joe90]

35 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

I think, that all Brexiteer should be forced to go to work in the bright new future they have created, while the rest of us (the majority)

I was under the impression that brexiteers were the majority? ?

[Temp]

Well they were once..

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-news/westminster-news/yougov-poll-on-brexit-support-6353568

 

YouGov found that the number of people who think the Brexit decision was the "right" one has dropped by three points since the start of the month to just 38% of the nation.

By comparison, those that believe it was the "wrong" one has increased by two points to 51%.

 

 

[markc]

The problem with Polls is that the outcome is based on those that have nothing better to do than stop what they are doing to participate.

An experiment was carried out regarding polls - the rather bemusing outcome was that over 50% said they would never participate in a Poll .... hmmmm?

[SteamyTea]

20 minutes ago, joe90 said:

56 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

I think, that all Brexiteer should be forced to go to work in the bright new future they have created, while the rest of us (the majority)

I was under the impression that brexiteers were the majority

If you count the number of people that voted leave, and compared it the number that voted remain, plus the non-voters, then the minority 'won'.

It is too easy to forget that a decision like this affected the disenfranchised.

 

I am quite happy to let all the remain voters work and pay tax to pay for me to wallow in collective self pity.  Seems fair that the 'victors' should do all the work, it is what they wanted.

[joe90]

2 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

If you count the number of people that voted leave, and compared it the number that voted remain, plus the non-voters, then the minority 'won'.

Your getting to sound like Trump ?

[SteamyTea]

4 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Your getting to sound like Trump ?

I got so much dust on me at the moment, I suspect my hair looks like his.

 

 

But more seriously, this is what happens when we do not have representative democracy.

Edited December 8, 2020 by SteamyTea

[ToughButterCup]

There's a beautiful little book - been in print since 1954 - that repays re-reading every once in a while.

Huff, D. (1954) How to Lie with Satistics , Penguin

[markc]

As a supporter of UK Independence (I hate the word Brexit) and co-owning a company that deals exclusively with Europe, my business partner is a remainer and so is my girlfriend so we all have debates regarding this subject and the following always come up.

1) There is no right and wrong, its personal belief and situations.

2) In a binary vote someone must win and another lose regardless of the percentages.

3) Had we voted to remain, would there have been a big effort and fuss to ensure everything was done to satisfy leavers? - probably not.

 

[joe90]

21 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

this is what happens when we do not have representative democracy.

Wot, we get dusty hair?

[LA3222]

29 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

and compared it the number that voted remain, plus the non-voters, then the minority 'won'.

 

Why are you counting non voters in with the people who voted remain??

[joe90]

12 minutes ago, markc said:

As a supporter of UK Independence (I hate the word Brexit) and co-owning a company that deals exclusively with Europe

thats interesting.

[joe90]

1 minute ago, LA3222 said:

Why are you counting non voters in with the people who voted remain??

Trump tactic?

[LA3222]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

No one likes to admit they have been suckered.  What amazes me is that half the coverage was pointing this out to them.

Come on mate, why do remainers assume leavers are idiots who didn't know what they voted for?

 

My decision to vote leave was in no way influenced by promises written on the side of red buses. I took that for the same political clap trap that remainers were spouting to support their arguments. I was under no illusions about what I was voting for and have no issues with a potential no deal. 

 

My only issue with this whole process was the sorry saga involving Theresa May and her attempt to sell Brexit down the river therefore subverting what most people voted for in the first place.

 

The way that MPs tried to row back and water down what the public voted for democratically was an absolute disgrace.

 

The best thing to happen in the last couple of years was the hubris of Jo Swinney thinking she had a shot of making massive gains for the Liberal Democrats and agreeing to Boris Johnstones attempt to force a General Election. This forced Labour/Corbyn to support it too and gave the electorate another chance to give the MPs another good hiding at the ballot box. When Boris came back with a massive majority, and taking Labour strongholds from 'working class' constituencies i was over the moon.

 

I woke up early to watch the Brexit results come in and I was absolutely buzzing.

 

I woke up early to watch the results of the last election come in and again I was absolutely buzzing.

 

Two massive elections and a massive resounding message sent to Parliament.   

 

I am far from uneducated, it baffles me why remainers assume (or like to kid themselves) we are?‍♂️

Edited December 8, 2020 by LA3222

[daiking]

Just now, LA3222 said:

Come on mate, why do remainers assume leavers are idiots who didn't know what they voted for?

 

My decision to vote leave was in no way influenced by promises written on the side of red buses. I took that for the same political clap trap that remainers were spouting to support their arguments. I was under no illusions about what I was voting for and have no issues with a potential no deal. 

 

My only issue with this whole process is sorry saga involving Theresa May and her attempt to sell Brexit down the river therefore subverting what most people voted for in the first place.

 

The way that MPs tried to row back and water down what the public voted for democratically was an absolute disgrace.

 

The best thing to happen in the last couple of years was the hubris of Jo Swinney thinking she had a shot of making massive gains for the Liberal Democrats and agreeing to Boris Jonstones attempt to force a General Election. This forced Labour/Corbyn to support it too and gave the electorate another chance to give the MPs another good hiding at the ballot box. When Boris came back with a massive majority, and taking Labour strongholds from 'working class' constituencies i was over the moon.

 

I woke up early to watch the Brexit results come in and I was absolutely buzzing.

 

I woke up to watch the results of the last election come in and again I was absolutely buzzing.

 

Two massive elections and a massive resounding message sent to Parliament.   

 

I am far from uneducated, it baffles me why remainers assume (or like to kid themselves) we are?‍♂️

 

He's just winding you up now. 

[LA3222]

Seeing the likes of Dominic Grieve, David Gauke, Anna Soubry lose their seats was outstanding. 

 

MPs thinking they can ask the public to answer a question, decide they don't like the answer and that they know better lose their seats was outstanding.

 

The sheer effrontery and gall of MPs to assume they know better so 'ignore' the electorate is appalling.

 

Equally I believe the Civil Service to be riddled with unelected remain leaning individuals who seem to think they too can hamper 'Brexit' and its ok.

 

The people elect Government to carry out their manifesto. The Civil Service are there to enable MPs to do so. What is so difficult with all of this?‍♂️ 

[LA3222]

5 minutes ago, daiking said:

 

He's just winding you up now. 

 Ha, I'm not wound up. Killing a few minutes whilst I have lunch?

 

On a serious note, the assumption that leavers are xenophobic idiots is an all too common one amongst remainers - I suppose it helps them sleep at night?‍♂️

[SteamyTea]

23 minutes ago, LA3222 said:

Why are you counting non voters in with the people who voted remain

Because, when people say 'the majority voted to leave', it is not true.  All that happened is the majority of people who bothered to vote, got the mandate. But you cannot truly govern without consent, and I don't think there is consent on leaving Europe.

14 minutes ago, LA3222 said:

My decision to vote leave was

Was what? You say you are not niece, but where are your reasons, and the policies you agree with.