Warm downstairs but cold upstairs

[Jude1234]

We have UFH all through the ground floor.  After some teething problems it is easily maintaining a pleasant temperature of 21C.  We don't have any heating upstairs as we were told that due to triple glazing and the amount of insulation we wouldn't need it.  We just have 3 towel rails in the ensuites/bathroom.  But it is distinctly chilly upstairs in the bedrooms.  We did include, just in case, the wiring to add electric wall heaters in the bedrooms but the quote for them plus fitting was a total of £1500.  So just wondering if we are doing something wrong downstairs that means the heat isn't going upstairs.  Do we need to set the thermostat higher?  The UFH is powered by ASHP and we have MVHR.  Any tips so that we can avoid paying £1500 would be gratefully received!

[PeterW]

Who balanced the MVHR ..? 

 

And how many rads upstairs ..??! It should take a sparky about 30 mins to fit a panel heater to a wall - you are only probably talking about needing 300-400w so these would be fine. 

 

(That’s just the first one I found ..!)

[ProDave]

£1500 is way too much unless you have a lot of bedrooms.

 

Leave doors open to allow heat to flow upstairs by convection.

 

Our house is perhaps a bit like yours. Whenever the bedrooms get down to 17 degrees we give the wood burning stove a blast with all the doors open to help get some heat upstairs.

[Temp]

Leave doors open downstairs, although that does increase the risk of fire spreading.

 

Electric wall heaters range in price enormously. Personally my feeling is that it's hard to justify the high prices charged for some of the more expensive heaters. In the past I have filed complaints with the ASA over some adverts and had them upheld.

 

So I would look at exactly which heaters you were quoted for carefully. You can get some with a thermostat and programmer for under £100. There are also some that that come with feet and a plug so no installation cost at all, just plug and go. You may also find some have mounting holes on the back so you can fix them to a wall and wire them in more permanently later.

[newhome]

1 minute ago, Temp said:

There are also some that that come with feet and a plug so no installation cost at all, just plug and go. You may also find some have mounting holes on the back so you can fix them to a wall and wire them in more permanently later.

 

That’s what I was going to suggest, ie spend 100 quid or so for 3 plug in heaters and decide whether you want to do anything better in the warm (hopefully) light of day. 

[ragg987]

We have a similar arrangement. As a precaution I fitted an inline direct heater to bedroom MVHR supply. I think it is 1kW. It is controlled by a thermostat on the landing.

 

So when very cold the inline heater will fire up and works well. I also leave bathroom towel rails on 24 x 7 at the lowest setting, maybe 30C, this works well.

[PeterW]

@Jude1234 one thing to be aware of is that it takes quite a while for a house to stabilise so whilst you may have got the air temperature up, the fabric of the building may not have reached equilibrium especially if you are pushing short sharp pulses of heat into the building. The decrement delay of the insulation will affect the swing of temperature too. May be worth setting it on constant but at say 18c for a week or so and seeing how it settles. 

[Jude1234]

Thanks for the advice, maybe I am being too hasty but it did seem an excessive amount for something that is only to be used occasionally.  Will leave it a few more weeks to see how it goes.  We are just getting the flue installed on our WBS so will probably give that a go at the weekend to see if it can warm everything up a bit.

[AliG]

When you say chilly, what temperature do you mean?

 

21C is probably the coldest temperature that people are comfortable with, I try to set thermostats at 21C, but sometimes get complaints from the family when set at this level and have moved the kitchen up to 22C in the evenings when people aren't moving about so much. One issue is that digital thermostats usually come with a 1 degree differential set so the heating won't kick in until the temperature falls to 20C which would probably be noticeable to people. I changed mine to 0.5 degrees. I don't know how this affects the efficiency of the heating short cycling, but especially with slow to react UFH I don't want to wait too long for it to kick in as the temperature falls.

 

If the starting point of the heated downstairs rooms is 21C then upstairs in the winter may well sit at 18.5-19.5C, I just compared my heated rooms with spare rooms where the heating is off and there is roughly a 2 degree difference in temperature, my house is well insulated but not as well as some on here. It depends a little on the outside temperature, solar gain etc. This is a comfortable temperature to be under a duvet, but not to to be out of bed. I often have discussions with the family who want the upstairs temperature turned up or the heating left on later, the trouble is 21C is too hot for me if I am in bed. I think the ability to have no heating upstairs is somewhat dependent on whether you just go upstairs and get straight into bed or hang around upstairs.

 

It may be that 22C downstairs is needed to maintain a more comfortable temperature upstairs or you do need a little bit of extra heat. As mentioned with doors closed there is only so much that heat can circulate even with MVHR.

 

If you do need a panel heater, £100-150 a time fitted would seem reasonable, you can get panel heaters down to £50 a time. I suspect that you'd be better buying them yourself as the electrician will just go to his normal supplier who may be expensive. I'd try turning the heating up to 22C first.That will probably be cheaper and easier.

 

I am waiting for you turning on the WBS and asking how to cool the place down!

[ProDave]

8 hours ago, AliG said:

I am waiting for you turning on the WBS and asking how to cool the place down!

Se my post at the end of this thread 

Managed properly there is no issue.

[dpmiller]

Since when was 21c cold?

[jack]

14 hours ago, Jude1234 said:

We have UFH all through the ground floor.  After some teething problems it is easily maintaining a pleasant temperature of 21C.  We don't have any heating upstairs as we were told that due to triple glazing and the amount of insulation we wouldn't need it.  We just have 3 towel rails in the ensuites/bathroom.  But it is distinctly chilly upstairs in the bedrooms.  

 

We have exactly the same arrangement (except no heating in the bathrooms!) and exactly the same problem. It's always cooler in the bedrooms than it is downstairs. Presently the bedrooms are about 19 degrees, but that's with downstairs pumped up to about 22 degrees. I'd be fine with it if the bathrooms were warmer, and indeed we're in the process of retrofitting IR panels to try and address this. I quite like this bedroom temp. My wife would like it warmer, but then I'd die of heatstroke overnight.

 

14 hours ago, PeterW said:

Who balanced the MVHR ..? 

 

I balanced mine. The problem (I speculate) is that if you turn up the fan to get more air (and hence more heat) being distributed, you increase the losses due to lower heat exchanger efficiency, so the incoming air ends up being cooled more. Turn it down to increase heat exchanger efficiency and less air is moved around, so you still end up with cooler bedrooms!

 

14 hours ago, ProDave said:

Leave doors open to allow heat to flow upstairs by convection.

 

We have a very wide open staircase, and another double height area of 6m². While the upstairs landing does warm up to an extent, the heat doesn't work its way into the bedrooms very well. The air delivered into the bedrooms is naturally cooler than the house average temperature due to the heat lost via heat exchange inefficiency. Unlike downstairs where the heat deficit is quickly made up by the UFH, upstairs, the cooled air is delivered directly into unheated bedrooms, then swept out of the bedrooms into an ensuite or the landing for extraction via the bathroom. This airflow prevents much warm air making its way into the bedrooms from the landing.

 

As for how to solve the problem, if there's already wiring in place, one solution would be to have the electrician install power points at these positions. Assuming you have basic handyperson skills, you can then source and install your own heaters, which will be a lot cheaper than what's presently being proposed.

[joe90]

Yes, despite electric UFH in the en suite and towel rad on 24/7 my wife tuts about the bedroom temp, it’s 22’ downstairs. Because we are in a very windy situation I believe the wind cools the upstairs more than most. During the summer the temp with no heating was about the same everywhere. I shall order more wood for the WBS,!

[vivienz]

2 hours ago, dpmiller said:

Since when was 21c cold?

 

If it's a draughty 21c, then it may as well be the temperature of the cool breeze wafting through the house.  We have some heat going into the slab now and the temperature is a balmy 16c but feels far more comfortable than an outside 16c without the draughts coming through.  I've specified upstairs UFH (wet for bedrooms, electric for bathrooms) as one of the the upstairs room is my room for doing stuff and office and I loathe the thought of being cold in there in the winter.

[ProDave]

I put 100mm 0f insulation for soundproofing above the downstairs ceiling, because that's what it said on the building warrant drawings.   I now wish I hadn't as of course that will also be thermal insulation.  I wonder without it if more heat would permeate through the ceiling / floor above.

[Triassic]

We have a portable small electric fan heater, it’s great at warming up a chilly room, 10 minutes with the fan on is all that’s needed.

[Stones]

We are all on one level so don't have this issue, other than our master bedroom. tends to sit 0.5C below the set house temperature, whilst the rest of the house sits 0.5C above it.  The room is heated in exactly the same way as the rest of the house.  The only difference is that the MVHR supply rate to the room is (intentionally) set higher than other rooms. 

 

In previous houses, where we have not heated rooms, temperature in those spaces was dictated entirely be the temperature of incoming MVHR supply air.

 

For those with this issue, a strategically positioned inline duct heater may be worth considering to lift the temperature in the relevant areas?