Using "off the shelf house plans" yes or no?

[dpmiller]

 

9 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

Do cows and sheep count??

 Definitely.

 

 

[ToughButterCup]

4 hours ago, Olly P said:

Hi all. Currently we are about to apply for Outline Planning at our site so I am (and have been for the last 9 months) doing a lot of research on Planning Policies and house design  etc. 

[...]

My question is have many of you had success in buying off the shelf plans?

 

My question could be seen as a little harsh: it isn't meant to be read as such.

 

Why at Outline Planning are you concerned about detailed design? Time you take thinking about a detailed design could be a distraction from the core issue: getting OPP.

 

I ask because through the planning process, we changed our minds about the design. Bit like wine tasting: with experience, taste changes from sweet to dry.

Undoubtedly, off the shelf designs will be a good starting point. 

[Declan52]

Will what the houses look like  that are close by not be a better indication of what the planners will pass. If they are all bungalows I doubt they will pass a 2 storey. Ridge heights etc will all have to be pretty similar as they won't want yours to stand out.

 

[Declan52]

8 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

 

 Definitely.

 

 

Happy days. Was getting a bit worried as I think the roaming herds of wildebeest have long left these shores.

[epsilonGreedy]

38 minutes ago, Carrerahill said:

Odd comment, frankly very odd! Bit of a chip?

 

It seems you have an issue with professionals in the construction industry, the professionals who design aspects of of the built environment. 

 

 

I have only been interested in self build for 6 months and have already spotted the divergent approaches to delivering a property between self builders and pro developers.

 

First time self builders seem to want to distance themselves from risk by spending money on non structure outgoings. Consider:

1. Newt enviro investigation.
2. Archaeological dig and report.
3. Planning consultant.
4. Ground sample drilling.
5. Special SE designed foundations.
6. Architect.
7. Architect's project management service.
8. Technical architect.
9. Building Warranty.
10. Then tick all the optional boxes on the self builder site insurance application.
11. Contract out CDM 2015 to an external consultant.
12. Hire a deluxe site facility cabin.
13. Install a fancy mineral water dispenser.
14. Ring the whole site with shiny new metal fencing.
15. Buy a pack of site health & safety notices.

 

It is easy to blow £40k to £50k before getting to dpc.

 

Edited August 30, 2018 by epsilonGreedy

[MikeSharp01]

5 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said:

I ask because through the planning process, we changed our minds about the design. Bit like wine tasting: with experience, taste changes from sweet to dry.

Undoubtedly, off the shelf designs will be a good starting point. 

I may have a perspective on this one. We were (still are hopefully) going for a passive house so we needed to close a lot of the loops before we went planning as the permission might have been granted for a house that could not be a passive house. Things like window sizes and orientation had to be tested against the PHPP (passive house planning package) to ensure that we got a working design through planning and would not need to go back for alterations.  As it stands we may need to go back to planning as I am contemplating increasing the roof area to be covered in PV from 8Kw to 12Kw (Won' be 12Kw peak as some are east and some west facing) and that will require a planning alteration. Interestingly such modifications do come a bit more costly if you use an architect - not for the design work its only replacing some tiles with PV cells but because we used one for the PP every change costs more.

[ToughButterCup]

14 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

[...]

First time self builders seem to want to distance themselves from risk by spending money on non structure outgoings. Consider:

1. Newt enviro investigation.
2. [...]
3. Planning consultant.
4. Ground sample drilling

 

For us numbers 1 to 4 were compulsory (2 will be only if in a designated area) : the planners are required by law to consult ecologists. Ask me why I know.

 

Why would anyone not employ a planning specialist  for OPP - just why? 

 

We are on Made Ground  (proper technical term, I am assured)

Why would I risk building on Made Ground without reassuring myself that it's OK first? Our Piling specialists would not have quoted had we not had a proper set of cores taken and submitted to the SE for comment.

 

I enjoy risk taking: I enjoy controlling it more, though. Makes the risk fun.

[joe90]

25 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

Will what the houses look like  that are close by not be a better indication of what the planners will pass. If they are all bungalows I doubt they will pass a 2 storey. Ridge heights etc will all have to be pretty similar as they won't want yours to stand out.

 

Not in my case. All new builds in this location are bungalows, local builders tell me the council have a fetish fir bungalows. We wanted two story cottage and cited several hundred year plus old cottages nearby that are two story. Thrown out by planners but fully accepted by appeal board ?

[Declan52]

23 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

I have only been interested in self build for 6 months and have already spotted the divergent approaches to delivering a property between self builders and pro developers.

 

First time self builders seem to want to distance themselves from risk by spending money on non structure outgoings. Consider:

1. Newt enviro investigation.
2. Archaeological dig and report.
3. Planning consultant.
4. Ground sample drilling.
5. Special SE designed foundations.
6. Architect.
7. Architect's project management service.
8. Technical architect.
9. Building Warranty.
10. Then tick all the optional boxes on the self builder site insurance application.
11. Contract out CDM 2015 to an external consultant.
12. Hire a deluxe site facility cabin.
13. Install a fancy mineral water dispenser.
14. Ring the whole site with shiny new metal fencing.
15. Buy a pack of site health & safety notices.

It is easy to blow £40k to £50k before laying getting to dpc.

 

1. The newts mentioned here are a protected species so steps had to be taken not the self builders fault.

2. Some times old things get found on sites that might need to be investigated further to see if they have any significance. We found old drains when doing the extension for the merchant hotel in Belfast held the job up. Just how it goes.

3. Some sites have had planning refused so need a consultant to get it passed.

4. Lots of the UK and Ireland had different ground conditions due to the result of the last ice age. Soft clays and silts can be many metres underground. Never find them with a spade.

5. If you have made ground ( correct term @recoveringacademic means that man has made it) then it would be wise to get your founds designed by a SE. 

6. I got on well with mine. Both ended the job on good terms. Had to use him to certify the build stages to get a mortgage. No architect no mortgage no build.

7. Some less experienced self builders use an architect to do this task. Is it wrong. Not in my eyes. Better letting him do it than having a go themselves and making a hash of the job.

8. Some went this route as they couldn't find an architect they liked or maybe just a better feeling going this way. Nothing wrong with it.

9. Some people buy a warranty some don't. I didn't buy one.

10. Not sure what you are getting at here.

11. It's just a method of planning out tasks to ensure they are compliant with the HSE laws. Less experienced self builders won't have a clue how this all works so sub it out.

12. Your going to build a garage as a substitute for a cabin. That's a bit fancy.

13. If you don't have a Buxton water dispenser in your house then you need sort it out.

14. Your site has to be secure so if you can't find any 2nd hand then they have to be new. Can always be sold on at the end.

15. It's the law. You have to put the signage up.

 

Out of all of these maybe the garage/fancy cabin and the water dispenser you could call an unnecessary expense. The rest will be specific to each info site and most if not complied with will result in you breaking various laws. 

[Jeremy Harris]

2 hours ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

I have only been interested in self build for 6 months and have already spotted the divergent approaches to delivering a property between self builders and pro developers.

 

First time self builders seem to want to distance themselves from risk by spending money on non structure outgoings. Consider:

1. Newt enviro investigation.
2. Archaeological dig and report.
3. Planning consultant.
4. Ground sample drilling.
5. Special SE designed foundations.
6. Architect.
7. Architect's project management service.
8. Technical architect.
9. Building Warranty.
10. Then tick all the optional boxes on the self builder site insurance application.
11. Contract out CDM 2015 to an external consultant.
12. Hire a deluxe site facility cabin.
13. Install a fancy mineral water dispenser.
14. Ring the whole site with shiny new metal fencing.
15. Buy a pack of site health & safety notices.

 

It is easy to blow £40k to £50k before getting to dpc.

 

 

 

Taking your list and breaking it down to items that anyone building on that plot of land would have to face, and those items that are optional, or could be resolved in more than one way:

 

1. Any form of demanded environmental study/report/mitigation measure is going to be mandated by law and/or the planning authorities.  Nothing anyone can do except comply with the requirements or walk away from considering developing that land.  It's nothing at all to do with self building.

 

2. Archaeological surveys, reports, watching briefs etc, exactly as above, the developer of the land only has a choice as to whether to comply with the law/planning requirements or walk away, and it wouldn't make a jot of difference if the developer was a self builder or any other builder, the same would apply.

 

3. The use of a planning consultant depends on many factors.  Self-builders are no different from any other builder when it comes to making this choice - if it looks like obtaining PP may be challenging then anyone should carefully consider if there is merit in using a planning consultant who will be far more familiar with local planning policy and the particular quirks of the local planning department.

 

4.  Ground condition determination, not necessarily drilling, there are a host of ways of obtaining the data needed and anyone developing any land anywhere is going to need this information, whether they are a self builder or any other person wanting to build on the land,

 

5 All foundations need to be either designed using approved details (effectively SE designed systems that are known to work for those conditions) or have to have an individual SE's input.  It matters not whether the builder is a self-builder or not, Part A applies equally to all.

 

6.  The vast majority of houses built in the UK are not designed by an architect.  Last time I looked at the data that was available, the figure was something like 10% are architect designed.  Whether a self builder chooses to use an architect to design a house is no different a decision as to whether any other builder chooses to use an architect. 

 

7.  An architects project management service is probably something a larger developer may choose to use, probably on a non-domestic development, than it is something a self-builder would opt for.  Some architects offer it as a service, usually along with some form of certificate to satisfy a lender, some don't.

 

8. No such thing as a "Technical Architect" as far as I'm aware.  There are architects, who have their own professional body, and their are architectural technicians, who are not architects but often do many of the smaller jobs for which an architect's fees may represent too high a proportion of the total value.

 

9. A building warranty is not usually optional for self-builders using a lender to fund the build, or who need to sell the house within ten years of completion.  There is an alternative, to have an architect manage the build and provide a certificate, and some lenders will accept that in place of a warranty, some won't.  The decision as to whether to have some form of warranty is not at all unique to self builders, it applies to anyone building a house that wishes to either use a lender to fund the build or wishes to sell it within ten years to someone who needs a lender to fund the purchase.

 

10.  Site insurance applies equally to anyone building on land.  It's not mandatory, but you need deep pockets if you wish to self-insure for public liability risk.  Everyone from big developers to self-builders face exactly the same decision on site insurance.

 

11.  CDM doesn't normally apply to self-builders - read the useful summary on it here: https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/topic/2514-cdm-2015-and-the-domestic-client/?tab=comments#comment-38515

 

12.  There is no legal requirement for any "site cabin", for self builders; there will be for a developer or big builder employing people though.  All a self-builder has to provide is a toilet and hand washing facilities, which can be met with a portaloo.

 

13.  Not sure where you get the idea that there is any requirement for a "fancy mineral water dispenser".  There needs to be clean water on site, but there isn't a requirement on a self-builder to provide potable water (although most would, as tea/coffee definitely lubricates site workers and keeps them happy).

 

14.  There is a legal requirement to put fencing around a site that meets the requirements of the insurers, primarily, and the general test as to whether site fencing is adequate, in terms of protecting the general public, is the normal legal test for reasonableness, "would the man on the Clapham omnibus consider this fencing to be a reasonable way of keeping people out?"

 

15.  Site safety notices are a mandatory requirement, to warn the general public that it is a potentially dangerous building site, to tell them to keep out (this backs up the statement that the fencing makes) and to advise anyone entering the site on the minimum level of PPE that they should both equip themselves with and use when working on site.  There is no requirement on a self-builder to enforce the wearing of PPE, although many of us try to, just out of common sense.

 

So, in summary, quite what amongst this lengthy list is specific to a self builder, and doesn't apply to anyone else building on a given plot of land?

 

 

 

[MikeSharp01]

1 hour ago, Carrerahill said:

simply didn't understand what it was for

Yes not knowing what it is you don't know, Donald Rumsfeld was a genius in making this a topic for discussion ,  is a risk for us all and perhaps might be a summary of this whole topic. You can do it all yourself but watch out for what it is you don't know you don't know!

[ProDave]

Quite a lot of the timber frame kit suppliers here have a range of standard designs. But they won't always work well on any plot.  A house at the bottom of our road I am sure is an example.  Enter via their drive and you arrive at a blank gable end with no windows or doors.  You can turn left and after 2 turns you eventually come to the "back" door facing completely opposite to the road.  Or you can turn right and go through a gate that takes you into a garden and there is the front door.

 

The house design seems completely wrong for the plot and I am convinced it is just a standard design plonked there with little thought.

[newhome]

2 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Quite a lot of the timber frame kit suppliers here have a range of standard designs. But they won't always work well on any plot.

 

That’s just people being a bit dense though surely? One of the criteria for selecting any design should surely take that sort of thing into account? You don’t need an architect to spot something like that. 

[Jeremy Harris]

All the big developers just use a small sub-set of standard designs, often placed on a plot with no regard for sensible orientation.  It seems rare to find more than about 5 or 6 different house designs on a development of a few hundred houses, at least around here.  I'll try and take a photo of one I pass every day.  It has a garage door opening on to a bit of grass with a footpath in front, and no way to get a car near the garage, let alone in it.  I makes me chuckle every time I drive past it.  I can only assume the garage door is a fake, and that there's really a wall behind it.

[newhome]

1 minute ago, JSHarris said:

It has a garage door opening on to a bit of grass with a footpath in front, and no way to get a car near the garage, 

 

Next door has an integral garage with original access off the road so the door is at the front. There was then a massive fuss about a garage being there (planners originally OKed it) so access had to be from the back. So there are roller garage doors at both ends and the owner was forced to put a fence up to prevent the front one being used by a vehicle. I’m sure it looks weird to people seeing a garage door, a driveway and a fence preventing access to both lol, but they have access at the back. 

[epsilonGreedy]

18 minutes ago, newhome said:

That’s just people being a bit dense though surely? One of the criteria for selecting any design should surely take that sort of thing into account?

 

 

On the contrary, I think difficult plot shapes or orientation is where an architect can add value to a modest plot.

Edited August 30, 2018 by epsilonGreedy

[Gone West]

3 hours ago, epsilonGreedy said:

First time self builders seem to want to distance themselves from risk by spending money on non structure outgoings. Consider:

1. Newt enviro investigation.
2. Archaeological dig and report.
3. Planning consultant.
4. Ground sample drilling.
5. Special SE designed foundations.
6. Architect.
7. Architect's project management service.
8. Technical architect.
9. Building Warranty.
10. Then tick all the optional boxes on the self builder site insurance application.
11. Contract out CDM 2015 to an external consultant.
12. Hire a deluxe site facility cabin.
13. Install a fancy mineral water dispenser.
14. Ring the whole site with shiny new metal fencing.
15. Buy a pack of site health & safety notices.

 

It is easy to blow £40k to £50k before getting to dpc. 

 

I must admit to 5 and 9.

[Jeremy Harris]

If we're going through that list ticking off the things we did, then I did the following, for the reasons given:

 

10. Site public liability insurance - because I felt it was damned stupid to try and self-insure, given the relatively low probability, but extremely high cost, of such a risk maturing into an incident.

 

14.  Ring the site with cheap second hand Heras fencing.  Because my site insurers demanded it, and it was just common sense to try and keep kids, etc, out of a dangerous environment.

 

15.  Buy appropriate mandatory warning notices, again because my site insurers required it, my frame contractor mandated it in their contract and because it was plain common sense to fit warning signs (I think they cost me around £30 all in, and I sold them on to another self-builder when I'd finished with them)

 

For the others I either had no requirement to do them from the planners etc, or I just did them myself.  As we had no intention of selling the house I chose not to buy a warranty, a personal decision based on my past experience of an NHBC warranty on a new house not being worth the paper it was printed on.

[ProDave]

3 hours ago, newhome said:

 

Next door has an integral garage with original access off the road so the door is at the front. There was then a massive fuss about a garage being there (planners originally OKed it) so access had to be from the back. So there are roller garage doors at both ends and the owner was forced to put a fence up to prevent the front one being used by a vehicle. I’m sure it looks weird to people seeing a garage door, a driveway and a fence preventing access to both lol, but they have access at the back. 

Where I lived in Oxford, someone built a garage without PP.  Rather than enforce it's removal, they planted a couple of concrete bollards on the footpath to prevent a vehicle getting to it.

[ProDave]

Things are a bit laid back round here out in the sticks.

 

1 & 2 never asked for.

3: I dug a few holes for the SE to look at.

4: he said ordinary strip foundations

5,6,7 just used and architectural technician

8 didn't bother

9 just a normal self build policy

10 didn't bother with any of that

11 Static caravan

12,13,14 like most around here didn't bother with any of that.

 

No doubt some I just "got away with" so this is not advice.

[newhome]

Number 10. Mega mega pleased to have had it when we got sued for an ‘accident’ on site. Endless lawyers’ ££££ and stress averted! 

 

Didn’t bother with any of the others apart from the building warranty. Given that I intend to sell within 10 years that may have been worth doing. 

 

[dpmiller]

3. Yup. Change of design on Reserved Matters retained on footings, but passed under previous Planning policy.

6& 8 our guy is more than a Tech but less than a full Arch.

10. no, not all the boxes.

15. One sign on the gate? 

[Ferdinand]

16 hours ago, Declan52 said:

Do cows and sheep count??

 

I am imagining them lulling themselves to sleep with a dream of counting farmers jumping through bureaucratic hoops.

[Ferdinand]

14 hours ago, newhome said:

 

Next door has an integral garage with original access off the road so the door is at the front. There was then a massive fuss about a garage being there (planners originally OKed it) so access had to be from the back. So there are roller garage doors at both ends and the owner was forced to put a fence up to prevent the front one being used by a vehicle. I’m sure it looks weird to people seeing a garage door, a driveway and a fence preventing access to both lol, but they have access at the back. 

 

Could you explain the "fuss"?

 

If there was planning and a pre-existing right to access, what was there to fuss about? The only thing would be the door overswinging the boundary, but a roller door and a blipper would fix that.

 

Ferdinand

 

[newhome]

Fuss was on the grounds of safety as the road is on the exit from the village and there was no speed limit (there is now a 40 mph speed limit). The village council made the fuss and as next door’s drive is on a slight bend it was decided that it wasn’t a safe place to have a drive. Then the PP was altered to have the access across the front of my plot and onto their driveway but then it was decided that would confuse drivers at night so the vehicular entrance was forced round the back. It meant that the position of my house had to be shifted too. This was all before I bought the plot. 

 

After the houses were built the community council continued their vendetta against the houses being here (they’re not even in the village!) and complained to the main council continually. One of their complaints was that a vehicle could enter the drive of the house from the front (they never used the drive) so next door were forced to put a fence up.